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  #501  
Old 12-09-2008, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
After that, both Bradford and Brown (and obviously Lacey, as Brown names his book as source) write that Diana had thus lost the support of the Queen.

While Brown interprets these facts as Diana's planned way to get more money, Bradford tends more to think that it was Diana's mishandling of the situation on bringing the media in and following her lawyer Julius' advice on asking for her share of the whole Windsor wealth which offended the Queen personally. Bradford: "Diana had thrown down the gauntlet to her royal in-laws. Ill-tempered divorce discussions dragged on until July when Charles presented her with his final settlement offer. (...) Diana's resistance and, no doubt, the unarguable fact that she had moral right on her side, paid off. Charles' offer - underwritten by the Queen, was a generous one."
I have always felt that most of Brown's book was taken from other sources. I think the biography by Bradford is probably the more accurate view on what happen in the divorce procedings.
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  #502  
Old 12-09-2008, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Tina Brown's book "Diana Chronicles" has several pages about the divorce negociations.Starting on page 484, "On February 15, when Diana had still not agreed to a divorce, the Queen invited her to the Palace to seed things along...." The information given is footnoted, with sources from Paul Burrell, Robert Lacey, Andrew Morton to CNN and newspapers like The Times and the Telegraph. There is only one "anonymous source" in this part of the book, which gives the information that an unnamed "executive of the Royal ballet" suddenly understood why Diana changed dates for her luncheon at the Royal Ballet in order to be available for the press when the news broke on August 28, 1996 that the divorce was legalized. All other information given is sourced.

Brown explains that Diana used the title discussion in the media to get a better settlement. p. 487: "It was a useful feint, gearing up the Palace for a fight about the title - when the real fight was going to be about money.".

"Diana's team had taken additional counsel, which confirmed that for her settlement Diana could look through Charles's personal wealth from the Duchy of Cornwall to the considerable Windsor wealth beyond. Who knew how far her demands might escalate? The Spencer gel was in danger of walking off with the Crown Jewels".
P.488. "In May, Diana went to the Queen and told her that unless her terms were met, she would withdraw her consent to the divorce. Without it, Charles would have to wait another two years until the obligatory five had been reached for an unconsenting divorce. If she ran out of money, she would sell her jewels in order to live and that would be a great embarrassment."

A.s.o. Interesting stuff and as I said: all information from somewhat reliable sources.
However, the supposed threat to sell the jewels cannot be true as hardly anything actually belonged to Diana so were not hers to sell. The royal-provenance jewels still belonged to the Queen and were on loan only. Most of her others were Spencer jewels and on loan from the Earl. Therefore anything she might sell was of little consequence anyway.
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  #503  
Old 12-09-2008, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GillW View Post
However, the supposed threat to sell the jewels cannot be true as hardly anything actually belonged to Diana so were not hers to sell. The royal-provenance jewels still belonged to the Queen and were on loan only. Most of her others were Spencer jewels and on loan from the Earl. Therefore anything she might sell was of little consequence anyway.
Brown quotes The Times as her source here, which is a quite reliable source. Still: did it really happen that way, how high is the probability? I personally wouldn't put it past Diana to try to "threaten" the Queen that way. She had done some equally "childish" stunts already and even if she had not much jewelery she still had her clothes and other stuff people were interested in. Maybe that was where the original idea to auction off clothes came from, or she had thought about that for a time but then for charity purposes, she had seen how Raine sold items from the Spencer-estate and made quite a fortune with it, she knew that she would really hurt/embarrass the Windsors on doing that... Oh, IMHO it really sounds like an idea Diana could have come across and thought it might lead to her goals. What do you think?
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  #504  
Old 12-09-2008, 02:14 PM
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I think that it has been shown multiple times that Diana was impetuous and did not always think things out (as many of us are at times); I'm sure that she felt that threatening to sell her jewels was meant to intimidate the Queen and she implied that would sell the historic gems that she had been given. The Queen Mother gave her several lovely pieces (brooch, PoW feather brooch with emerald drop) and the Queen gave her (well, loaned) the Cambridge Lover's Knot as well as the Emerald Choker. Diana had also received jewels as wedding presents from rulers and dignitaries of other countries and these were considered personal gifts. I imagine what with all the interviews that the Queen was concerned about headlines about Diana having to sell jewels to live because of the mean old firm and their hatred to Diana--which wasn't really case. I think Diana probably threatened to sell those pieces but was trumped by the Queen on the legalaties of actually trying to do so.
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  #505  
Old 12-09-2008, 02:21 PM
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Actually, Diana was personally given some jewels of royal provenance. Pieces such as the Lover's Knot tiara were "on loan" but I'm fairly certain that other pieces such as the duck egg sapphire from the Queen Mother were hers to keep. Regardless, if she had sold a cheap pair of earrings and said that it was because she was broke, not only would she have made a ton of money for them, but she would have embarrassed the RF greatly in the process.
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  #506  
Old 12-09-2008, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
Actually, Diana was personally given some jewels of royal provenance. Pieces such as the Lover's Knot tiara were "on loan" but I'm fairly certain that other pieces such as the duck egg sapphire from the Queen Mother were hers to keep. Regardless, if she had sold a cheap pair of earrings and said that it was because she was broke, not only would she have made a ton of money for them, but she would have embarrassed the RF greatly in the process.
Quite true!
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  #507  
Old 12-09-2008, 04:13 PM
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Diana had also received jewels as wedding presents from rulers and dignitaries of other countries and these were considered personal gifts.
Princess Diana was given sapphires pieces from the Saudi royal family. I think I have seen The Duchess of Cornwall wear the sapphire cocker. But let me get back to topic.

Quote:
Actually, Diana was personally given some jewels of royal provenance. Pieces such as the Lover's Knot tiara were "on loan" but I'm fairly certain that other pieces such as the duck egg sapphire from the Queen Mother were hers to keep. Regardless, if she had sold a cheap pair of earrings and said that it was because she was broke, not only would she have made a ton of money for them, but she would have embarrassed the RF greatly in the process.



Any jewelry of Diana, Princess of Wales would have sold ans sold big. Everything since her death has be up for sale even her reputation.
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  #508  
Old 12-09-2008, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by georgiea View Post
Princess Diana was given sapphires pieces from the Saudi royal family. I think I have seen The Duchess of Cornwall wear the sapphire cocker. But let me get back to topic.
No, I'm sure you've not seen the Duchess of Cornwal wearing Diana's sapphire jewels. She wouldn't do that. The "Jewel Police" on these forums would have seen that!
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  #509  
Old 12-09-2008, 07:01 PM
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Even wedding gifts to her (especially from foreign royalty) would have been treated - just like other jewels she received later - as a gift to the "position" of Princess of Wales and she would not have been allowed to count them as personal property, although she was allowed their continued use after the divorce (although she had far fewer occasions to wear them). By the precious gifts being treated this way it avoids difficulties like duty on valuables coming into the country.

Although just one brooch - the feathers with an emerald drop - is one which many people think is the same piece when worn by Camilla or Diana, it is simply another copy of the same style (as shown in many discussions such as this one) Camilla has more sense than to put herself into that particular direct line of fire. And why should she?? - she is amassing a stunning collection of jewels to rival any that Diana ever had....
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  #510  
Old 12-09-2008, 07:24 PM
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Not meaning to get off subject here, but I have often wondered what we might have seen on Diana had she not gotten bad headaches because of tiaras and if she had liked brooches.
I completely agree-there is not any need for Camilla to go pilfering through Diana's jewel box; Camilla had a beautiful collection of jewels before she married Charles and now look at what she has worn in just the few short years since her marriage. I just can't see her asking to wear Diana's pieces. It doesn't suit the type of person she is.
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  #511  
Old 12-09-2008, 09:18 PM
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Well I guess the Princess' jewelry reflected her taste.

Diana was very indecisive during the divorce settlements; but I don't blame her for taking the money rather than the HRH. A title is pretty useless if you don't have a penny to your name.
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  #512  
Old 12-09-2008, 09:36 PM
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Diana voluntarily relinquished her style and rank of HRH in the February meeting with The Queen, which was in the presence of Robin Janvrin taking notes in the background. This was the basis of the statement from the Palace later denying The Queen or Prince Charles had asked her to relinquish her royal rank and the decision had been Diana's alone.

Burrell stated in his book that The Queen made it clear she felt the style of "Diana, Princess of Wales" would be appropriate after the divorce, but reserved making a decision at that time, stating she would discuss the title issue with Charles. Later, Diana changed her mind about it, deciding she wanted to remain HRH to ensure she wouldn't be treated like Sarah, Duchess of York after a divorce.

Charles reportedly didn't care one way or another about the issue, but Prince Philip was said to be adamantly against allowing Diana to remain HRH. The Queen was willing to let her keep it, but only as "HRH Princess Diana" and not, "HRH Diana, Princess of Wales" as Diana wanted. She also wanted Diana to accept the price for remaining a Royal Highness, which was a lower financial settlement and the right of the Palace to determine her public duties. Diana refused on both counts.

So, in the end, Diana made her own decision on the title and settlement, which probably was the best course of action. You can't have it all and she had overplayed her hand.
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  #513  
Old 12-09-2008, 09:49 PM
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Even wedding gifts to her (especially from foreign royalty) would have been treated - just like other jewels she received later - as a gift to the "position" of Princess of Wales and she would not have been allowed to count them as personal property, although she was allowed their continued use after the divorce (although she had far fewer occasions to wear them). By the precious gifts being treated this way it avoids difficulties like duty on valuables coming into the country.
Not true. All of her jewels were either from the Royal Collection or wedding gifts from the Saudis, in addition to the pieces Charles gave her during the marriage. She never would have paid duty taxes on those pieces because they were given to her in the UK.

The only royal pieces were the Cambridge Emerald Choker, the Lover's Knot Tiara, a pair of diamond earrings, a couple of brooches and a pearl choker with a diamond centre piece. The Sri Lankan sapphire may have come from The Queen Mother's collection of unset stones that she had been given by Queen Mary, although this was never confirmed.

All of these jewels were covered in her divorce agreement as hers to keep for her lifetime, with the jewels passing to Prince William for his future wife. She was forbidden to sell or lend any jewels she had received from The Queen or The Queen Mother. The rest were her personal property to do as she pleased.

When she died, the royal pieces were all returned to The Queen, with the remaining pieces likely in safekeeping for William and Harry when they marry.
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  #514  
Old 12-09-2008, 10:03 PM
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Just a reminder that this thread is about Diana's titles. Discussion of her jewels should take place here:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f20/diana-princess-of-wales-jewellery-3-a-13888.html

Thanks.

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  #515  
Old 07-16-2010, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jcbcode99 View Post
I think that it has been shown multiple times that Diana was impetuous and did not always think things out (as many of us are at times); I'm sure that she felt that threatening to sell her jewels was meant to intimidate the Queen and she implied that would sell the historic gems that she had been given. The Queen Mother gave her several lovely pieces (brooch, PoW feather brooch with emerald drop) and the Queen gave her (well, loaned) the Cambridge Lover's Knot as well as the Emerald Choker. Diana had also received jewels as wedding presents from rulers and dignitaries of other countries and these were considered personal gifts. I imagine what with all the interviews that the Queen was concerned about headlines about Diana having to sell jewels to live because of the mean old firm and their hatred to Diana--which wasn't really case. I think Diana probably threatened to sell those pieces but was trumped by the Queen on the legalaties of actually trying to do so.
Maybe she was trying to get rid of memories.
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  #516  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:22 AM
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Presumed Diana would still be alive, when Chales becomes King; would she still be Diana, Princess of Wales? or would her styl be changed?

Same with Sara, Duchess of York; If Andrew became King (I know, he woun't, but..) would her style change?

I just want to understand the system ...

Because .. then (probably) Will & Kate will become The Prince & Princess of Wales.. and if they would divorce.. there would be two BlaBla, Princess of Wales.. mhhh very confusing
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  #517  
Old 12-24-2010, 02:09 PM
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Diana would be Queen Diana, Sarah would be Queen Sarah.
The title Duke of York would merge with the crown.

The title POW would not merge with the crown, and it is awarded to the heir to the throne should the Sovereign wish it.
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  #518  
Old 12-24-2010, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post
Presumed Diana would still be alive, when Chales becomes King; would she still be Diana, Princess of Wales? or would her styl be changed?

Same with Sara, Duchess of York; If Andrew became King (I know, he woun't, but..) would her style change?

I just want to understand the system ...

Because .. then (probably) Will & Kate will become The Prince & Princess of Wales.. and if they would divorce.. there would be two BlaBla, Princess of Wales.. mhhh very confusing
I think Lumutqueen has misunderstood your question.. you are asking if Diana were alive today and she was still divorced from Prince Charles, correct? And if Andrew were to become king, what would happen with his divorced wife, Sarah.. right?

If Diana were still alive and Charles became king, she would still be Diana, Princess of Wales, assuming she had not remarried. If Charles had still married Camilla in the interim, then Camilla would become Queen (or HRH The Princess Consort, as she intends to be).

Sarah will remain Sarah, Duchess of York, if or until she remarries. If Andrew were to become king, there would be no queen unless he had remarried before that event.

If neither Diana or Sarah ever remarried they would still retain use of the titles..
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  #519  
Old 12-24-2010, 02:25 PM
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I just realised, I completely misread the post and assume Nice Nofret was discussing if Diana and Sarah were still alive and married.

My apologies.
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  #520  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:01 PM
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*gg* no, Lumut, that would have been easy, even for me - but thank you for answering
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