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  #301  
Old 11-07-2006, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
The very official style is:

Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales becomes Her Royal Highness The Dowager Princess of Wales

However due to negative connotations of the word "Dowager," Diana could have requested her mother-in-law to be styled as a divorcee, but then with the HRH. Because Diana would remain a member of the Royal Family (the divorce can not take place) she would also enjoy the style HRH.

Her Royal Highness Diana, Princess of Wales

-----

Example;

Her Grace The Duchess of Grafton becomes Her Grace The Dowager Duchess of Grafton

However due to negative connotations of the word "Dowager," many widows choose to be styled as a divorcee, except keeping their style.

So, Her Grace The Duchess of Grafton becomes Her Grace Anne, Duchess of Grafton
Just wanted to add that the style of (in your example) Her Grace Annem Duchess of Grafton was not invented for divorcees but for widows of an peer who were not the mother of the next peer - eg second wifes, while the heir of their late husband was the son of the first wife. The title "Dowager" is reserved for the mother of the next holder of the title. And, as Beatrixfan said, only after the next peer married, so that there are not two ladies with the style "The" duchess of Grafton.

In case of a remarriage in the British aristocracy the woman had a right to keep a higher style if she had one from her previous marriage. Eg. The Earl of Thisandthat dies. His wife becomes (as their son is married) The Dowager Countess of Thisandthat. After a time she gets three offers of marriage: if she chose The Marquess of Nonsense, she'd be The Marchioness of Nonsense. If she married Lord Surplus (a Baron) she probably would be named Lady Surplus even though she could decide to stay the Dowager Countess of Thisandthat. If her chosen one was simple Mr. Smith, she would keep her old title and and the couple would be announced as "The Dowager Countess of Thisandthat" and Mr. Smith. But of course the people hearing this announcement would know that The Dowager is married to Mr. Smith, but still she could use her late husband's title.
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  #302  
Old 11-07-2006, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn
I don't know the answer, but I suspect she would have been given an HRH and title in her own right. As sole parent of the heir she would have been in a much stronger and more influential position within the RF than she ever could have been as an ex-HRH after the divorce. She would want to be able to keep the HRH and title when she remarried, and I think that idea would probably have met little resistance. I am sure she would have remarried.
Somehow I'm rather glad the things turned out the way they are... I'm convinced if Diana had not played for all that money and kept a dignified silence the queen would have created her a peeress in her own right. One should not forget that Diana tried her best to undermine the monarchy so why should she have received a title from an institution she obviously didn't care about?
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  #303  
Old 11-08-2006, 05:22 PM
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Well maybe because Diana is the mother of the future king of england so she deserves or entiteled to recieve her own title.
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  #304  
Old 11-08-2006, 05:29 PM
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Well, not now she doesn't. Remember that this scenario is when they seperated. You seperate with motion to divorce so if she remarried, she'd probably lose the HRH etc. They might make her Duchess but she'd be unlikely be an HRH.
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  #305  
Old 11-08-2006, 07:28 PM
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Once a seperation is announced, there's usually no going back. It's motion to divorce even if a divorce hasn't been obtained. Knowing how unhappy all concerned were, I think that the Queen would have made Diana a Duchess as mother of a future King but she'd have been treated a la Wallis, with Wallis as a precedent.
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  #306  
Old 11-08-2006, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmpressRouge
She could have also petitioned the queen to use the style HRH Princess Diana.
Diana was reportedly offered the style and title of "HRH Princess Diana" in her own right as the divorce negotiations were wrapping up. In return, she would have had to accept a lower financial settlement and agreed to work with the Palace in setting her public duties.

She refused on both counts and The Queen declined to revisit the matter when Diana telephoned her to ask if she could remain HRH.

The only way she would have become HRH again is if Charles had decided to remarry Camilla. At that point, The Queen probably would have granted Diana her own style and title via letters patent to ensure support for Camilla replacing her as Princess of Wales.
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  #307  
Old 11-08-2006, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
Somehow I'm rather glad the things turned out the way they are... I'm convinced if Diana had not played for all that money and kept a dignified silence the queen would have created her a peeress in her own right. One should not forget that Diana tried her best to undermine the monarchy so why should she have received a title from an institution she obviously didn't care about?
She couldn't have it both ways. Being a Royal Highness after a divorce from the heir to the throne would have set-up a precedent for future divorcees to argue they too have the right to remain HRH.

The Queen wasn't having it.
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  #308  
Old 11-08-2006, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Once a seperation is announced, there's usually no going back. It's motion to divorce even if a divorce hasn't been obtained. Knowing how unhappy all concerned were, I think that the Queen would have made Diana a Duchess as mother of a future King but she'd have been treated a la Wallis, with Wallis as a precedent.
I agree. Once the separation was announced, divorce became inevitable and there was no way to save the marriage. At the end of the day, Diana remained the mother of a future king and she was granted enough privileges by The Queen commensurate with her position.
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  #309  
Old 11-08-2006, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhon11234
Well maybe because Diana is the mother of the future king of england so she deserves or entiteled to recieve her own title.
Being the mother of a future king is not a constitutional position. Her style and title remained the decision of the Sovereign as fount of honour, just like for all members of the royal family.
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  #310  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:16 PM
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And let us remember that she wasn't planning to carry out any duties for the Queen after the divorce so why should she have got a title in the first place?
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  #311  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:34 PM
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I, for one, was happy that Diana was permitted to keep the title Princess of Wales, by good grace of HM.

I think to have denied her that would have been really quite appalling.

I also feel (and always have) that Diana should have been made in her own a Her Highness, at least. Ok, she was no longer married to the Prince of Wales hence her style as A royal princess ceased, however, as the mother of a future monarch I believe a courtesy style of a Highness would have been much more appropriate than nothing at all as was the case
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  #312  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:36 PM
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Technically, Diana didn't have the title Princess of Wales. She had the title of a Princess of Wales which was a courtesy title that she would have lost immediately upon remarriage. In Britain we don't have "His or Her Highness". We have HRH's or nothing at all so when Di refused that HRH, she really shot herself in the foot.
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  #313  
Old 11-08-2006, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Technically, Diana didn't have the title Princess of Wales. She had the title of a Princess of Wales which was a courtesy title that she would have lost immediately upon remarriage. In Britain we don't have "His or Her Highness". We have HRH's or nothing at all so when Di refused that HRH, she really shot herself in the foot.
Yes BeatrixFan, I know Diana was not the Princess of Wales, but a Princess of Wales.

Either way my statement is correct in its wording as Diana maintained the title of Princess of Wales in her own right by way of HM good judgement.

There was afterall no dissimilarity when addressing Diana was there? I mean, no one said... Diana, 'a' Princess of Wales. I'm sure you understand what I mean

Diana refused to be known as a Her Royal Highness? Hmmm, I feel the loss of her royal title was not so much a relfection of her wanting to relinquish that
privilege, rather an option that was enforced upon her by way of the divorce.

And before 1917 (I'm sure) the title His or Her Highness was still used in Britain so I don't see as to why it could not have been reinstated for the mother of a future King. It could have been done. England does have a history with the title, this is fact.

If the now wife (respectively ) of the heir can be addressed with a lesser title than that of her husband (no matter how flattering it is), than surely Diana (although divorced) could have been granted a title lesser that of a royal distinction. Again, not that it couldn't be done, rather it wasn't.

My mention of the Duchess is not to embark on character comparisons, this must be said so as to avoid any misunderstanding.

BTW: BeatrixFan. I did not make mention that I knew of Diana's offer to relinquish Her Royal Highness style. What I meant was that Diana (I feel) felt obligated to do so given the circumstance of divorce.
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  #314  
Old 11-09-2006, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale
I, for one, was happy that Diana was permitted to keep the title Princess of Wales, by good grace of HM.

I think to have denied her that would have been really quite appalling.

I also feel (and always have) that Diana should have been made in her own a Her Highness, at least. Ok, she was no longer married to the Prince of Wales hence her style as A royal princess ceased, however, as the mother of a future monarch I believe a courtesy style of a Highness would have been much more appropriate than nothing at all as was the case
Diana wasn't "permitted" to keep the title of Princess of Wales. She assumed the style of a divorcee, albeit a royal one, consistent with accepted precedents in the peerage for all divorcees.

The Queen made a significant concession to Diana's position when it was announced The Princess would continue to retain her precedence on state and national occasions after the divorce. Technically, as she was no longer a Royal Highness or a princess of the UK, Diana should have lost all precedence she enjoyed as the wife of Prince Charles.

The rank of Highness was eliminated with the 1917 Letters Patent of George V, which continues to govern the styles, titles and rank for members of the royal family as recognized by the current Sovereign.
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  #315  
Old 11-09-2006, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale
Diana refused to be known as a Her Royal Highness? Hmmm, I feel the loss of her royal title was not so much a relfection of her wanting to relinquish that privilege, rather an option that was enforced upon her by way of the divorce
Diana offered to relinquish her style (it is not a title, but a prefix of rank) as HRH in her initial meeting with The Queen, which was attended by Sir Robin Janvrin taking notes. Later, she changed her mind about it and decided to negotiate in the media to pressure The Queen, which was a big mistake.

Given the way she went about achieving her goals, Diana was lucky to have received the many generous privileges The Queen granted her. She was not honorable in her intentions and pushed too far.
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  #316  
Old 11-09-2006, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
The rank of Highness was eliminated with the 1917 Letters Patent of George V, which continues to govern the styles, titles and rank for members of the royal family as recognized by the current Sovereign.
That's all well and good, but the Queen could make changes to the Letters Patent if she wished. She did not intend (presummably) to do so.

Even if Diana had relinquished her royal style and title, a lesser style should have been made possible (In my opinion).
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  #317  
Old 11-09-2006, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Diana offered to relinquish her style (it is not a title, but a prefix of rank) as HRH in her initial meeting with The Queen, which was attended by Sir Robin Janvrin taking notes. Later, she changed her mind about it and decided to negotiate in the media to pressure The Queen, which was a big mistake.

Given the way she went about achieving her goals, Diana was lucky to have received the many generous privileges The Queen granted her. She was not honorable in her intentions and pushed too far.
We are all such harsh critics aren't we...

As always, an interesting read.

My interpretation of what "went down" is a little different to your's (even if only by one or two points) but fair enough. I know Diana offered to relinquish her royal style but given the situation I have always thought that she acted on what she thought was expected of her. Either give it up or be stripped. Any person would, I think, probably act on what they thought was expected in that situation.

Oh well, what's done is done and I was not much impressed that Diana didn't acquire a Her Highness style (even by relinquishing a royal style), but that's just me.
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  #318  
Old 11-09-2006, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Technically, Diana didn't have the title Princess of Wales. She had the title of a Princess of Wales which was a courtesy title that she would have lost immediately upon remarriage. In Britain we don't have "His or Her Highness". We have HRH's or nothing at all so when Di refused that HRH, she really shot herself in the foot.
Well, she was a "Lady" as daughter of an earl so she could have used the name Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor after the divorce with people calling her "Mylady" first time and then "Madam".
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  #319  
Old 11-09-2006, 12:05 PM
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That's right. Di had the title of a "Lady" but she couldn't have used Mountbatten-Windsor. It's not usual for divorced women in Britain to use their marital surname after divorce. She would most likely have gone back to Lady Diana Spencer.
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  #320  
Old 11-09-2006, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
It's not usual for divorced women in Britain to use their marital surname after divorce. She would most likely have gone back to Lady Diana Spencer.
It is normal practise for divorced women to use their marital surname. Very few women revert to Miss or Ms ??

I think, by law, they should be forced to revert back to their maiden name!
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