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  #21  
Old 04-09-2014, 10:30 PM
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Considering what we already know Diana and Charles have said in private and public conversations and interviews, I doubt it. I know of no particular rumour.
If that is the case, then there is no need to do it - the information is already known.

Im not saying this to be contrary - I dont sit in a particular camp and I take the view that as Diana said shortly before she died, she hoped Charles and Camilla would get married; she was obviously in a happier place and she was "moving on". I think that showed character and maturity. I admire Camilla for her approach to public life and the commitment she has given - it wasn't an easy thing for her to do. I like the fact she has made Charles happier which has got to be a benefit.

If Diana was prepared to move on, then I think we all should. Whilst some of the main protagonists, and the children are still alive, this would only cause them pain as the partisan groups muster and argue over events and personalities.

I don't expect everyone/anyone to agree but I would prefer that these documents are released some 30 years from now (the same as with Cabinet Papers) or similar. I can see there is historical interest, but I would not like information gained through illegal means (phone tapping for instance) to ever be released.
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  #22  
Old 04-09-2014, 10:59 PM
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My response you've highlighted was directed to the specific question posed by Al_bina of whether there is any reason the BRF should be concerned about a possible release of the tapes. What I was getting at, without actually saying it, was since we have already read the transcript of Charles saying he wanted to be his then-lover's tampon, and we have read the transcript of Diana saying "after all I've done for this f****** family", and have seen and read about them airing their dirty laundry in public, short of some revelation of serious criminal conduct or breach of national security on the part of a member of the BRF, what could be revealed that would be of concern to the BRF?

But the available information is not only limited to the personal stuff we should never have known about - for I agree with you about personal conversations like that being kept private - there is other stuff that Diana has said that I think is of interest and since others have had access to it and picked and chosen what they would reveal, that stuff should, I believe, be made available.

I may be wrong but I don't think the "secret tapes" reference means those private, illegally obtained, phone calls, I think it refers to the Settelen tapes and the Colthurst tapes, and they are the ones I would like to see made available, and not just made available in 30 years to historians. There is some merit in the suggestion that it could wait that long, but I am a curious beast and I may not be around then and I would like to hear all of it as it was made and not just the snippets that Morton decided to tell us about. Evidence can be very misleading when used selectively.
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  #23  
Old 04-09-2014, 11:00 PM
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I think we will see some 'new information' or little known information released for the 20th & 25th anniversary of her death.

(Some may be from the tapes or letters.)
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  #24  
Old 04-10-2014, 02:43 AM
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...I think it is best if everything was out in the open.
Would it be best for William and Harry for 'everything' to be out in the open? It's not as though the tapes would contain evidence that Charles was a double agent for the KGB, or that Diana was a murderess. It would just be more he said/she said regarding a nasty divorce. And any satisfaction the curious public would achieve would be minor in comparison to the hurt that her sons would experience.

Is there anyone on this forum who has ever been divorced? Would you want everyone in your hometown to have the complete record of what happened?

This amount of curiosity is unhealthy. Let her rest in peace, and let Charles enjoy his life.
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  #25  
Old 04-10-2014, 03:01 AM
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She is an historic figure and so can't be left to rest in peace. She is studyable in history classes around the world and as such an information about her would be useful.

Sadly for members of public families this is part of the price they play for the privileged lives they live - that their lives will be dissected for centuries to come.
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  #26  
Old 04-10-2014, 03:29 AM
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I doubt there will be many students to study the life of Diana. So much is already known and her impact was limited. The late Princess Margaret is already almost faded away, out of collective memory. The late Queen Elizabeth, who lived longer than a centenary, is following her daughter's path in the mist of memories. In comparison: Ms Wallis Warfield, previously Simpson and Spencer, had a much greater impact than Diana ever had. She was the cause of a constitutional crisis, of an amazing downfal of a reigning and popular King, of enduring tensions between two courts (the Windsors in London vs the Windsors in Paris) and even something 'banal' as the enormous collections of art, jewels and other objects made a longer lasting footprint than Diana had.

But even this lady -Wallis- is seldom studied by students. A lady to be compared with one of Henry VIIII's six wives, be it that not the wife but the King himself was beheaded in here. Other than for social interest, there is little for students to study about the life of the late Diana Spencer, I think.
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  #27  
Old 04-10-2014, 03:34 AM
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As far as I can see, the ownership of the tapes is the issue for me. If they were stolen, "looked after" or whatever, who owns them. If they are the ones that Diana commisioned then it is pretty clear they belong to her estate. What is in them is totally irrelevant and to be honest, none of our damned business.

Yes there is a tiny bit of prurient interest "how did she sound when she put the knife in", you know, the baser parts of our nature that can keep us watching a train wreck. But once it's over, the debris has been removed and life goes on, what is it that keeps drawing us back to the train wreck that was Diana at that time.

I do not see any relevant, moral or ethical reason that the tapes should be aired. It's just that Diana's life is the ultimate money making machine. Even in death she has not been spared.
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  #28  
Old 04-10-2014, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I doubt there will be many students to study the life of Diana...
On the contrary - the ladies you have named are great ones to study as biographies for students learning the ins and outs of writing a biography.

As a History teacher I can assure you that ladies such as Wallis and Diana are studied and will be studied for many years to come - Diana's influence and the outpouring of grief at her death makes her also a study in social change and sociology studies - certainly at a number of schools that I know personally.

Margaret will fade because she didn't do much. The Queen Mum and Wallis won't fade - Wallis brought down a King and The Queen Mum was inspirational to many during the dark days of WWII (she comes up regularly in essays I read by students across NSW on the question of the British Home Front during that war with Hitler's famous comment that she was the 'most dangerous woman in Europe' appearing frequently). No study of the British Home Front in WWII can ignore her.

As for Diana - she nearly destroyed the House of Windsor - and their recovery has been remarkable. 17 years ago if anyone has predicted that The Queen would be more popular than ever they simply would have laughed at you as the general feeling was that the monarchy might survive but it will never be as popular as it was in the early 80s.

If you look at the influential people of the 20th Century Diana is one of them and that makes her a person to be studied for generations to come - by historians and students in schools, even if not the general public at large.
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  #29  
Old 04-10-2014, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
I may be wrong but I don't think the "secret tapes" reference means those private, illegally obtained, phone calls, I think it refers to the Settelen tapes and the Colthurst tapes, and they are the ones I would like to see made available, and not just made available in 30 years to historians. There is some merit in the suggestion that it could wait that long, but I am a curious beast and I may not be around then and I would like to hear all of it as it was made and not just the snippets that Morton decided to tell us about. Evidence can be very misleading when used selectively.
Totally agree. They fed us bits & pieces and then only the bits they wanted to feed us.

There is about 36 hours of video tapes and unknown hours of audio tape.
(Videos: Settelen = 21 hours, 1997 secret tape = 12 hours,
Panorama = 2-4 hours. Audio: Morton/Colthurst = unknown. Phone tapes = unknown.)

These tapes are not the Settelen tapes nor the Colthurst tapes but were recorded in March of 1997.

I am curious cat and I want to see what they withheld.
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  #30  
Old 04-10-2014, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
On the contrary - the ladies you have named are great ones to study as biographies for students learning the ins and outs of writing a biography...
Maybe there are differences in what is needed to study a topic. Usually academic students must meet stringent requirements. They need to have a solid background in the theory and methods of their field and demonstrate a good knowledge. Prior to beginning work, a student will need to draw up a formal, written agreement with his/her supervisor. The agreement, which must be approved by the university, will outline the objectives of the research project and an individualised plan of study.

Let us assume that a student wants to research Diana, Princess of Wales. In what framework should that be done? History? Social sciences? Is the person of Diana, Princess of Wales "heavy" enough for an academic research project, for a thesis and a well-documented academic report, approved by supervisor and university? Yes, the late Margaret Thatcher is. Yes, Queen Elizabeth II is. Two ladies with direct political, social and historical influence which gives any student loads of data and information.

I have the feeling that any student who wants to make and to uphold a thesis about Diana, will meet raised eyebrows and even negative comments because it will become commented as ultra-light and not scientifical enough. Maybe we have different 'notions' of students. Maybe at secondary education level, studies about the life of Diana are acceptable for a starter.
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  #31  
Old 04-10-2014, 07:38 AM
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You have your ideas, and standards, and interests, and others of us have ours. And they may - indeed very likely will - differ. Those differences do not make our different interests and ideas and standards wrong.........just different.

Vive la difference!
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  #32  
Old 04-10-2014, 08:37 AM
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I don't think this is just a matter for historians. This is not just about Diana (and I don't think anyone can stop the dead from resting in peace). What happened during Charles and Diana's marriage is still impacting Charles and Camilla today. Charles has never regained the popularity he enjoyed before he married Diana. His work today is still being overshadowed by the charges leveled at them by Diana and her friends 20 years ago. For an example, all you have to do is look at comment sections under every single article about them. It will come up again when Charles takes the throne.

I am especially curious about the tapes Morton has. One of my criticisms of Diana is that she failed to reveal her own affairs while charging Charles with infidelity. My question is whether that was her decision or Morton's? It would make a difference to me if Diana had been ready to come clean but was talked out of it.

Similarly, it would be interesting to hear Diana's own words. Many of the people who have revealed things Diana told them have their own agendas. I'd like to hear an unfiltered account so I can judge for myself.

I understand some people want to declare this is a dead issue, but the fact that they even clicked on this thread indicates they have an interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
...I have the feeling that any student who wants to make and to uphold a thesis about Diana, will meet raised eyebrows...
Given the impact Diana's death had on millions of people, I would think that there would be a major interest in an academic study of Diana. Not just her life, but the media and public interest, her manipulation of the media, and the impact of the tabloid media. I think the reaction to her death is a fascinating phenomenon that I don't think anyone really understands.
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  #33  
Old 04-10-2014, 08:55 AM
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Diana's secret tapes recorded in March 1997

I don't get it. The link to an article from 2006 about a secret tape from 1997. This is 2014 and this unnamed source is yet to come forward. We don't even know if this is true. Even if the tape surfaced it could be spliced together. I'm sorry I just don't see the point of discussing this.
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  #34  
Old 04-10-2014, 08:59 AM
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I don't think this is just a matter for historians...
I think these are all very good points.
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  #35  
Old 04-10-2014, 02:04 PM
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If some (maybe second-rate) politician messes up in private, then often a 50-year rule applies for the declassification of relevant documents. It is not an exact science.

What I find objectionable is people using the selective airing of intensely private matters in order to manipulate events.
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  #36  
Old 04-10-2014, 02:36 PM
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It is often said that history is written by the victors. In this time period of the animosity between Diana and Charles and the British Royal Family, there were no victors.
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  #37  
Old 04-10-2014, 02:43 PM
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It is often said that history is written by the victors. In this time period of the animosity between Diana and Charles and the British Royal Family, there were no victors.
I often get the idea that their battle is still being fought by other people "on their behalf"; it could only have ended by the directly involved together and because the untimely death of one of the two that will never happen..
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  #38  
Old 04-10-2014, 03:34 PM
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...This is not just about Diana...
I have the idea that the Prince of Wales, also because of his very succesful Prince's Trust, his commitment to the countryside and the national heritage, is pretty popular in general. The vitriol and venom in the comments' sections of online media are not the Prince's exclusive "pleasure". Even popular royals as Prince William, Catherine and Prince Harry better avoid reading the comments in magazines as the Daily Mail. Recently Diana was in the general interest again because of that Naomi Watts film (which was a total flop at the box offices). Really, maybe there was a time that Diana was declared a Saint. From that sainthood little is left when you read the comments' sections.

Even persons we in general do have a positive vibe about like First Lady Michelle Obama, Tennis Legend Roger Federer or Hollywood Darling Mila Kunis better fasten their safety belts and protect themselves before reading the vomit and the trolls in the comments' sections. That is the world anno 2014.

At the same time I say: don't underestimate the power of symbols and togetherness. In the unimagineable event that Queen Elizabeth II passes away, leaving her many Realms behind after a Reign, with a lifespan, there will be deepfelt loss of a long-lasting symbol, a rally around the new King. He will lead the nation in mourning, his son becomes the Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay, eventually created Prince of Wales, a whole different royal family will appear on the balcony. Suddenly a King will ride on horseback before his troops during the Trooping. New elements and more openess will enter the palaces, a fresh airwave will live up the monarchy.

Mark my words. The example is there. The scandal-ridden Prince Bertie became Edward VII and a most loved King in his short Reign. The stammering and stuttering Duke of York who had to follow his brother's footsteps after scandal hit the monarchy became an unexpectedly beloved monarch. You never know how things work out. In my view Charles and William have nothing to fear and can look forward to become great and beloved Kings. All this despite the bitter years of the War of the Waleses. But all this at the same time also because of their relationship: without Charles and Diana, there would be no William, Harry and George...
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  #39  
Old 04-10-2014, 04:33 PM
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Mark my words. The example is there. The scandal-ridden Prince Bertie became Edward VII and a most loved King in his short Reign. The stammering and stuttering Duke of York who had to follow his brother's footsteps after scandal hit the monarchy became an unexpectedly beloved monarch. You never know how things work out. In my view Charles and William have nothing to fear and can look forward to become great and beloved Kings. All this despite the bitter years of the War of the Waleses. But all this at the same time also because of their relationship: without Charles and Diana, there would be no William, Harry and George...
A very well written post and I think you've hit the nail on the head as far as how Charles and William will be seen as kings. One note though and that is that it was David (his familial name) that became Edward VIII and then his brother Bertie that followed him as George VI.
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  #40  
Old 04-10-2014, 04:48 PM
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i think Duc-et-pair referred to two separate kings: Edward vii (the one married to Alexandra) in the line you bolded; in the next sentence to his son George VI
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