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  #621  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:13 AM
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We have seen marriages sailing near dangerous icebergs, think of Juan Carlos and Sofía, of Albert II and Paola, of Juliana and Bernhard, but these couples somehow refound mutual appreciation or even rediscovered a love lost.

I can not escape the thought that now, almost 40 years after The Wedding, and after stormy periods, possibly The Prince and Princess of Wales, calmer, wiser, older could still have been married and being doting grandparents to George and Charlotte.

It has always badfled me why -with all force- the path to final divorce was taken. Why not a separation, for the sake of the monarchy, for the sake of the two boys, so many residences, so many estates, there was no need fot Charles and Diana to cohabitate when they could no longer stand each other.

But for the most formal events, the State Opening of Parliament, the Trooping the Colour, the Garter Ceremony, State Visits, the Prince and Princess of Wales could have assembled together, as two matured adults and do their duties. It has always baffled me, seeing the named examples in Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, that Charles and Diana were speeding so fast to make an end to it all. Sad, so sad in retrospect.
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  #622  
Old 06-11-2017, 05:43 AM
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They were doing that largely in the late 80s but then came the Morton book and the gloves were off.

Once Diana publicly trashed Charles like that there was no going back - rumour and innuendo is one thing but to publicly come out with those allegations - and the lies as well (after all she was with Hewitt through the late 80s but doesn't want that to come out).

They tried a separation with no intention of divorce until the Panorama interview. By then Diana wanted out clearly otherwise she wouldn't have done that interview and even the date of the interview tells you that she wanted out and that she wanted to cause as much havoc to the royal family as possible. The interview was shown on the 20th November - The Queen and Philip's wedding anniversary. She would have known the intended air-date. If she cared about her husband's family at all then she would have done it on any other date than that one but she wanted to hurt and hurt and she didn't care about the consequences.

Once she admitted that she had committed treason in that interview (which she did when she admitted she had had an affair) she had to go and so the Queen ordered the divorce. Why it took so long amazes me? I would have ordered it the day after the Morton book came out. It was well known at the time that she had collaborated with it, even if she lied to the Queen, her sovereign about that it was still well known.
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  #623  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:26 AM
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I agree, Iluvbertie, Charles and Diana were basically living the life of 'civilized' marriage by aristocratic standards in the 1980's. Left alone the marriage would have sailed on to old age methinks.

The monkey wrench in the whole thing was the Murdock tabloids, bound and determined to 'out' every detail of the (dazzling) royal couple. The Squidgy tapes and the Charles and Camilla tapes will always be a puzzle to me but are a profound indication of how low the press' respect for the traditional boundaries around royalty had sunk. In fact, imo it's the timeline of the press that is the operative revealer in all that unfolded, from the Morton book onwards. (Diana for sure had her part to play but it was a dance macabre with the voracious press, they were the impetus I believe that brought out the worst in Diana's 'tell-all' tendency, defensive lies and all).

Massive revelatory too-close-to-the-bone speculations were underway in the press (likely leaks from royal servants imo). As Iluvbertie indicates, these revelations would place Diana in a sticky position of having technically committed 'treason'. The tabloids raised Diana up, they were then engaging in the (time-honored) take-down. Diana's canny understanding of how to go about getting out a rationale for all the scandal surfacing via the tabloids was actually remarkable imo.

But from that moment, with a royal of her stature telling tales like any royal household servant, the game was on, and the Diana and the press debacle took off. Sadly, in that scenario it was the tabloid press sounding the horns. Diana was too immature or too gullible or too clueless (at least in that regard) to understand how perfectly she was being goaded (and used) into exactly what the tabloids wanted. The story was too juicy not to tell.
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  #624  
Old 06-13-2017, 02:50 PM
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I think that Prince Charles's staff were not helping matters much.

Here you have all of these secretaries, equerries, valets and general factotums competing with each other for influence over their 32 year old fussy-yet-malleable bachelor prince, and along comes a 20 year old girl who throws everything off kilter. She became the competition. It was no wonder she had the likes of Stephen Barry fired.


I also think in the beginning of the engagement period, there should have been more consideration in scheduling his engagements. He was booked too tightly up to the wedding date and hardly spent any time with her.
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  #625  
Old 06-13-2017, 02:52 PM
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The biggest mistake was them not having a longer courtship period where they spent actual time together ...they would of probably discovered they didn't really suit.


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  #626  
Old 06-13-2017, 03:21 PM
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One thing that really seemed to start with Diana is the competition between RF members in garnering good press. I think Prince Philip always instilled a certain amount of competitiveness, but Diana's overwhelming popularity really sharpened things and fomented resentment. Remember that year when Diana accompanied HM to the opening of Parliament and wore her hair in a modified updo,which which prompted Princess Margaret to tell HM that Diana was making a fool of her? Over a tidy little updo!

In later years Diana was more zealous and proactive in pursuit of good press, but in the beginning that mesmerizing glamorous princess image just blossomed on its own.
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  #627  
Old 06-13-2017, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
Apparently Diana suffered from some form or forms of mental illness. Anyone who has had a mentally ill family member knows that you can hate the behaviors, and resent the problems, but you never wish for that person to be dead. You suffer along with them, and you wish and pray for their well-being, but it would take a black heart indeed to wish for their death, or to be pleased if/when it occurs. We all suffer with problems in life; if dealing with a loved one's mental illness is your problem, then you deal with it.
This very thing makes me wonder if that is one of the underlying reasons for the mental health campaign started by William, Harry, and Catherine.
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  #628  
Old 06-13-2017, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
This very thing makes me wonder if that is one of the underlying reasons for the mental health campaign started by William, Harry, and Catherine.
I wonder whether they feel she ever truly got the mental health treatment she needed. I don't expect that they would ever comment on her health, though, not in any substantial way. And they shouldn't, of course.
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  #629  
Old 06-13-2017, 07:14 PM
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Diana actually sought out help in various places quite a bit. As time passed, I think she was on a quest to find solutions and answers to various life issues. From therapists to alternative treatments to astrological readings. She was exploring and hoping to find peace. To be honest, I think when most of us get past the twenties and mature, we start questioning life and the universe around us and our place in it.

It may be possible that some of Diana's mental health issues did influence William and Harry to champion mental awareness. We've seen that with Harry revealing his own mental struggles with his mother's death. Another big factor is that with the causes and organizations W&K&H have taken on in the past years, they've seen the need for psychological counseling in each and every one of them. From child bereavement to adjusting to civilian life to the despair and hopelessness of being homeless, dealing with life is a challenge.

If anything, when it comes to Diana and her mental health issues whatever they were, I do think she laid the groundwork for her adult children and their families to take on the issues of mental health awareness. Just the fact that she sought out help and comfort and solutions in so many places may have planted the seed that no matter who one is, no matter what one's lifestyle or bank account looks like, life is difficult to deal with sometimes and the stigma of seeking out professional help needs to be eradicated.

Life actually is simple. Its just that people tend to complicate it a lot.
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  #630  
Old 06-13-2017, 07:19 PM
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Eating disorders are mental health issues. First and foremost. That doesn't make a person unable to function on other levels, depending on how deep this affliction goes. Diana expected a marriage. She got what was planned by Charles, a pseudo marriage. Nice on the outside and creepy on the inside. Her treason, I laugh as I write it was to want love. Her husband was giving love. Just in the wrong bed.
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  #631  
Old 06-13-2017, 07:32 PM
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There were expectations of how the marriage would be by both parties going into the marriage. They were totally different and the expectations clashed like oil and vinegar. To me, it was obvious that these two people didn't sit down and talk about what they expected out of the marriage from each other.

One, perhaps, had a Barbara Cartland "happily ever after" expectation. The other had a "partner in the role they needed to play for the Firm, a mother of the heir and the spare and a support system for each other" expectation of marriage. Both didn't take the time to really find out what the other person really needed and marriage was a disappointment for both and both sought solace and support elsewhere.
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  #632  
Old 06-13-2017, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Eating disorders are mental health issues. First and foremost. That doesn't make a person unable to function on other levels, depending on how deep this affliction goes. Diana expected a marriage. She got what was planned by Charles, a pseudo marriage. Nice on the outside and creepy on the inside. Her treason, I laugh as I write it was to want love. Her husband was giving love. Just in the wrong bed.
I'm not sure what Diana expected was a partnership marriage. It seems like she expected Charles to have her as the sun of his world and he would revolve around her. I don't think either of them had realistic expectations for a marriage involving the two of them
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  #633  
Old 06-13-2017, 10:00 PM
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I think what both of them wanted and needed from a marriage was someone to rely on, a rock-solid sort of character who can be counted upon to always bolster the other up and never fail to listen to and acknowledge successes and accomplishments of their spouse. The problem was, neither one of them was a rock type going into that union.
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  #634  
Old 06-16-2017, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
We have seen marriages sailing near dangerous icebergs, think of Juan Carlos and Sofía, of Albert II and Paola, of Juliana and Bernhard, but these couples somehow refound mutual appreciation or even rediscovered a love lost.
I suppose Albert and Paola "rediscovered a lost love" and seem to be today genuinely devoted to each other. Juan Carlo's and Sofia's marriage on the other hand is, I'm afraid, a typical arranged marriage between members of two royal houses and nothing else besides that. They seem to accept and , in their own way, even be satisfied with that arrangement because it is natural to them, as it was also probably natural to Edward VII and Alexandra of Denmark,and to countless European kings and queens of the past. It wouldn't work though for Diana, who was from a different generation and had a different upbringing, not being royal herself. It wouldn't work either for any member of the current generation of "middle-class" queens/ future queens of Europe (Máxima, Letizia, Mary, etc.).
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  #635  
Old 06-17-2017, 02:54 AM
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this all seems to be goig OT, away from Di's relationsip with the RF? But I think that with regard to the post above, yes the Spanish couple are Justin an arranged marriage and are Ok with it.. but they are a very different generation to Di. I think the RF felt that if Dis' marriage didn't work out (and they DID IMO Hope that it would work out) they would QUIETLY get on with a semi detached marriage.. not go to the press or get a divorce.
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  #636  
Old 06-17-2017, 03:05 AM
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I think you've hit the nail right on the head. Once the marriage happened, regardless of what it was like in the ensuing years, the general rule of thumb was to "keep calm and carry on". Accept that you're in a bad marriage but find alternate solutions to making it work at least as a facade in the public eye and remember duty comes first.

Diana went rogue and her ensuing behavior was so against the prescribed norm that it drove a wedge between Diana and her family by marriage. Although I cannot and will not condone many of the avenues that Diana took to lash out against those that seemed to treat her badly, I do believe that for someone like Diana to just stuff it all down and keep calm and carry on as if nothing bothered her would have been far more detrimental. Her relationships with the royal family may have been better and more civil but at what price?
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  #637  
Old 06-17-2017, 03:23 AM
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But look at the cost of the way she DID take? She lost the respect of most of the RF.. so they would not sympathise with her when she had troubles with the press. I know a word to editors might not have the same effect in the 90s as it might have had in the 60s but the RF clearly felt "she's made her own bed, if she has to socialise with TV stars and nouveau riche people, and be chased by the press everywhere, tat's her own business."
So Diana was now out of the Royal and to an extent the upper class circle. She ended up on holiday with the Fayeds because she didn't have that many friends of her own kind who could offer her a nice secluded villa in Tuscany... or perhaps even America any more.
and her boys probably have had to realise that their mother was barely tolerated by their father's family...
I think the RF DID believe that the marriage was an ok one at first, that the 2 had a reasonable amount in common and a reasonable chance of having a hapy marriage.. but they were mistaken. and I tink that they DONT (at least the queen and Phil) approve of affairs, but they would have felt that if in a bad marriage, the thing to do is
to spend less time togeter, but when you appear at family gatherings, or in public behave nicely, and no rows that embarrass people.
And if you have an affair with someone you find more congenial, keep it discreet. make sure that there are no long phone calls or letters that the press could get hold of.. Be pleasant in public and appear together often enough that the press can't say you are never together..
choose a lover who will also be discreet...
and Charles fell down on the long phone calls. So did Diana and her main lover was NOT gentleman enough to be discreet.. so the affair got out.
But while I DO sympathise with Diana, lost in this family whom she couldn't entirely get away from, I think that the way she went about trying to sort out her marital problems was foolish and sadly led to her death....
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  #638  
Old 06-17-2017, 03:42 AM
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A reminder please that when discussing Diana, please stay on the topic of the individual threads. This discussion should be about Diana's relationship with the Queen and other members of the royal family. We have numerous individual threads to discuss subjects such as mental health, the marriage, Diana's boyfriends etc etc.

ETA: Please note that several posts subsequent to this one have been deleted since they ignored the request to stay on topic.
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  #639  
Old 06-24-2017, 01:49 AM
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well what do people tink about Di and the rest of the RF? I think we've discussed her relationship with the Queen and margarret...but what about C's siblings? We don't hear much about them.. did they retain any liking for her after the separation? Andrew, Ed and anne etc? The Phillips children were friendly with Will and Harry after Di died..but what about Anne when Di was alive
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  #640  
Old 06-24-2017, 02:22 AM
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From what I've read, Charles's siblings followed the rest of the BRF in distancing themselves after the separation though no doubt there weren't any quarrels.

Andrew of course was in the process of a painful separation/divorce himself at the time. When Diana and Sarah were friends in earlier years no doubt he was quite friendly too. However, he was also in the navy so I doubt that he and Diana saw much of each other really.

Edward had his romance with Sophie to be going on with at the time of the Wales separation and divorce, and the couple had their own circle.

Anne had nothing in common with Diana. Diana hated horse riding, Anne adored it, Anne loved Balmoral, Sandringham, the country lifestyle. Diana didn't. They could have chatted about children's charities and that would have been it, I suppose.

Of course Anne had her own marital troubles, with Mark Phillips. About the only thing I've read of regarding Anne's attitude to Charles and Diana's marriage is that she is said to have once considered writing to her brother about the way he addressed Diana (in private I suppose, not in public.)

That says a lot about the members of the BRF, I think, especially at that time. There were get-togethers at specific times of the year. However they seem, from biographies I've read, to have often communicated by notes, not face to face or by phone.

The different members led/lead separate lives and get together by arrangement because of their scheduling. During Diana's time anyway (and things may have changed though I doubt it for the older members of the BRF) they don't seem to have been a family who were used to popping into each other's homes unannounced.

So I doubt that Diana saw Charles's siblings that much anyway after she and Charles moved from BP to their own apartment at KP, and this would have continued during the separation and divorce, imo.
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