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  #561  
Old 09-02-2016, 03:18 AM
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Yes, I think, following the divorce, Diana and Charles's relationship was cordial, just, mainly for the sake of their boys. They would occasionally ring each other and Charles would occasionally drop in at KP.

They were seen together at the Eton Christmas Carol service in December 1996. Then in the next Spring there was trouble over Tiggy Legge Bourke being part of the arrangements for William's Confirmation into the Anglican Church, and Diana insisted that she not be invited to the ceremony. She herself came alone, though she'd been told she could invite up to thirty guests. So there was tension because of that. More trouble later at a May picnic at Eton.

As for her ex in-laws, I think she kept her distance and they did the same. The distancing had started with the Morton book and continued apace after that. I don't think there was much communication at all. She may have been invited as a matter of form, to Christmas festivities but it would have been awkward all round and Diana recognised this, I think. After all, would most families want their son and brother's newly divorced ex enjoying Christmas with them?

I don't like to think of the last year of Diana's life very much. She was incommunicado with her sisters for much of the time, Charles Spencer was in South Africa, she had had a spat with her mother who remained ensconced for much of the time in her cottage in a remote part of Scotland, and she also broke off relations with Sarah Duchess of York after Fergie wrote the bit about contracting warts from Diana's shoes in her autobiography in November 1996, and also answered personal questions about her from the US Press after Diana had asked her specifically not to.

All in all, quite a lonely time. Her relationship with Khan was also experiencing difficulties because she wanted to find him a job. The meeting with his parents hadn't turned out as she'd hoped. The romance finished in June 1997.
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  #562  
Old 09-02-2016, 04:23 AM
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I dont think it was all that bad, Diana's life.. but I agree that seh was problaby lonely. She had cut herself off from the RF, by her behaviour. They werent going to like her after she'd divorced Charles in such a noisy way. and I think a lot of her own class may have disapproved as well. But she still had freinds.. and had new ones(albiet of a more celebrity type). ANd I dont know if she was not speaking to her sisters. her mother yes she had had a bad row with her and a bad one with Fergie. But I dont know of any estrangement from her sisters, she had appointed Sarah S at the time of the divorce to hlep look after the boys if she died,in her Will. Her affair with Khan didnt' finish till not long before her death, but it was alwasy stormy. But I think that a certain amount of loneliness was the price she must have realised she woudl have to pay for leaving her marriage.. and the RF behind. I think she hoped to find a new man, but began to realise that it wasn't that easy, that she had so much baggage..
I think she was soemone who was rather dependent on other people, for company because she wasn't easy on her own. She had cut back on her work, was not a serious reader, didn't have anything to occupy her if she didn't have friends or a man around....
I agree that I dont think she was THAT friendly with Charles. I think she still resented his affair with Camilla, and was friendly mostly to show the public that she wasn't bearing a grudge and for the children's sake..
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  #563  
Old 09-03-2016, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
The only thing that was unique during Charles and Diana's sitution was the modern age press that made everything seem like it was the worst thing ever. Diana didn't do anything to threaten the monarchy.

Her relationship with the family was cool, but pretty much typical of a in-law relationship. We like each other today, but tomorrow can be another story.
She did, she talked about her marriage, she talked about the RF, she criticised the future King and gave her opinion that he didn't really want the "top job" and would not be that good in it. She did a secret interview, which was broadcast on TV.. without the queen's permission. That horrified her own staff who were trying to keep up a relationship with the RF and the queen..
That's about as bad as you can get, from a senior member of the family. She angered the queen during the divorce negotiations by putting out her own statement about her title before it had been agreed with the queen, and the queen was forced to put out a counter statement.
It was indeed not untypical of an "in laws" relationship, In that the young wife is never quite accepted by her husbands family.. and if there's a divorce, she's going to be disliked by the husband's family and seen as an interloper who caused problems. Only in this case the in law rows had constitutional implications.
Its not the same as many in law situations where a family never like the new bride.. at first the RF were quite prepared to accept Diana, liked her and were pleased she was in the family. but when they got her in, she never quite fit and was on uneasy tems with many of them from very early on.
I think one aspect of the situation that hasn't maybe been touched on is that the queen TRIED to overlook Di's faults for the sake of her good points. That she saw how popular and magnetic Diana was, and tried to be there to support her, even when she was getting uneasy and others in the RF were getting more critical. She seems to have been willing to listen to Diana, crying and complaining, even if she couldn't offer any constructive help
and I think she felt that she had to do this and keep Diana as calm as possible, because she was such an asset to the RF. But eventually I think she ran out of patience, and that's why she grew quite cool to her daughter in law, because she felt she had done her best, had put up with a lot and Diana still was not "settling" in the family....and had grown more alienated from them as time went on
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  #564  
Old 09-06-2016, 02:28 AM
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I think this is an excellent description of Her Majesty and Diana's relationship. The Queen was patient, tolerant and listened to Diana for years. To have Diana then talk to the press about the Royal Family in negative terms and then openly question Charles's ability to be King had to have been like a slap in the face/betrayal to HM. As written, the Queen lost patience and her relationship cooled towards Diana. As much as Diana was popular with the press and public, it had to have been a nightmare putting up with her in private.
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  #565  
Old 09-07-2016, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Katrianna View Post

I think this is an excellent description of Her Majesty and Diana's relationship. The Queen was patient, tolerant and listened to Diana for years. To have Diana then talk to the press about the Royal Family in negative terms and then openly question Charles's ability to be King had to have been like a slap in the face/betrayal to HM. As written, the Queen lost patience and her relationship cooled towards Diana. As much as Diana was popular with the press and public, it had to have been a nightmare putting up with her in private.
I always mull over this and end up not sure who to sympathise with. I think that perhaps the RF weren't as sympathetic as they might have been to Diana in the early years of her royal life.. and while the queen did listen to her, i suspect that Diana knew that while she was patient adn tolerant, there wasn't realy full sympathy because the queen didn't understand her.
I agree that Diana was in the wrong to talk to the press etc, and to hint that Charles should not be king..but perhaps some genuine sympathy earlier rather than a patient tolerance woudl have won Di's loyalty.
But that's why I think that when Diana died, the queen was thoroughly fed up with her and didn't feel any great sorrow. She probalbly felt that Diana had just been too much in the wrong by her standards, and that while i hope she felt something, it was a long way from real grief.
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  #566  
Old 09-07-2016, 12:20 PM
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I truly believe that when Diana died so unexpectedly, first and foremost logically in the Queen's mind and heart had to be for the two sons that had just lost their mother and were staying with her in her home. When something unexpected and tragic such as the accident in Paris happened, those that remain behind that loved the departed dearly are the ones most in need of comfort and solace.

It doesn't matter what the Queen thought of Diana at that time and we'll never know what the Queen thought of Diana at the time. Her thoughts are her own and private and not for public consumption and speculation.

That's my opinion anyways.
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  #567  
Old 09-08-2016, 06:55 PM
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People who are very young now might learn of the Queen's feelings about Diana after HM dies and historians are able to read her private papers and write about them. I don't really expect any real "revelations" in my lifetime, unless they come when I'm elderly.
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  #568  
Old 09-08-2016, 07:46 PM
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To be absolutely honest, I hope those private thoughts are never released to the public. It just seems like such an invasion of a person's innermost being which should never be on public display for all to see.

Question? What good would it do to "know" exactly what HM thought of Diana throughout her association with her? Would it ever really change anything? Good gravy its been almost 20 years since Diana died and I would hope a lot of the feelings that were felt back then were buried with her. Life is about moving on and going forward.
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  #569  
Old 09-08-2016, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
People who are very young now might learn of the Queen's feelings about Diana after HM dies and historians are able to read her private papers and write about them. I don't really expect any real "revelations" in my lifetime, unless they come when I'm elderly.
JMO - but I don't think there will be access until after Charles. He has nothing to gain by letting anyone bring up Di as he ascends the throne.
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  #570  
Old 09-08-2016, 09:45 PM
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Usually the diaries etc aren't released for 20+ years after the death of the person involved and with monarchs they can stipulate what will happen to their private papers meaning that The Queen could say in her diaries that they are to be destroyed, or not released for 50 years or something like that.
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  #571  
Old 09-08-2016, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post

Question? What good would it do to "know" exactly what HM thought of Diana throughout her association with her? Would it ever really change anything? Good gravy its been almost 20 years since Diana died and I would hope a lot of the feelings that were felt back then were buried with her. Life is about moving on and going forward.
Because Charles, Diana and the Queen will be historical figures and the breakdown of the marriage of King Charles III and Diana, Princess of Wales will be a part of the history of the reign of Elizabeth II. What the Queen thought of Diana will be no different to knowing what Queen Victoria thought of Gladstone and Disraeli or of the relationship between Henry VIII and Sir Thomas More.

Hopefully by the time the Queen's papers become public the whole Diana story will be able to be looked at objectively and from a historical perspective rather than emotionally and as a piece of click bait for online tabloids.
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  #572  
Old 09-08-2016, 10:35 PM
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Perhaps it's a bit more applicable to think of the marital situation between the Prince Regent and his estranged wife Caroline and what his mother Queen Charlotte and siblings thought of it all, which of course we know. People at Court and in Society wrote masses of letters then containing all sorts of gossip, so it is possible for historians to get all sorts of perspectives on it, which I doubt was the case in the 20th century. I don't think anything will be released until after Prince Charles's death either.

I'm reading a biography of the Queen at the moment in which it's stated that when Diana and Charles were divorced in 1996 Diana was invited to Christmas at Sandringham. She turned up there for Church and for lunch but then left. A guest at Sandringham said that the Queen drew her aside under the guise of looking at the family gifts and seemed bewildered. "She (Diana) hates us." she said "She doesn't want to be with us. I don't understand it. It doesn't have to be like this."

All the same Diana was very attuned to atmosphere and there may have been a huge feeling of awkwardness and constraint in the air. After all, when it comes down to it, how many families invite a recently divorced ex of a close family member to their Christmas celebrations?
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  #573  
Old 09-08-2016, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by VictoriaB View Post
Because Charles, Diana and the Queen will be historical figures and the breakdown of the marriage of King Charles III and Diana, Princess of Wales will be a part of the history of the reign of Elizabeth II. .

click bait for online tabloids.
I agree. I think that the queen's feelings for Diana, like the marriage itself are part of the Royal history. Even with Beatrice destroying a lot of Vic's diaries we know a fair bit about what Victoria thought on family matters and political ones..
IF the queen's private feelings led her to act in a certain way in public, or prevented her from realising how much the public felt saddened by Dianas death, they are IMO important and legitimate subjects for speculation or for historical record.

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Perhaps it's a bit more applicable to think of the marital situation between the that when Diana and Charles were divorced in 1996 Diana was invited to Christmas at Sandringham. She turned up there for Church and for lunch but then left. A guest at Sandringham said that the Queen drew her aside under the guise of looking at the family gifts and seemed bewildered. "She (Diana) hates us." she said "She doesn't want to be with us. I don't understand it. It doesn't have to be like this."

All the same Diana was very attuned to atmosphere and there may have been a huge feeling of awkwardness and constraint in the air. After all, when it comes down to it, how many families invite a recently divorced ex of a close family member to their Christmas celebrations?
Its not easy, but people Do sometimes try for the sake of young children to keep up a front, even with a divorce. and the RF are a public family, they have to do things that other families don't.
I think that by the time of the divorce, Diana was hostile and miserable, and while I think the queen was willing to try, for the sake of "family unity" and most importantly for Will and Harry's sake, to have her to stay, and treat her as still a family member, Diana was' not willing to try. She just showed up each Christmas for a few years to go to church, not even sure fi she always stayed for lunch.. and while it would have been hard for her, I think it was also hard for W and Harry to see their mum shoot off within an hour or 2, at Christmas and know she was going back to a lonely Christmas lunch in London maybe. I think that she could have tried and put up with the RF for the day, to be with the boys. Sarah was billeted at a farmhouse, during Christmases, because she was persona non grata...Diana was still welcome... at least officialy.
but there is that air of bewilderment, I suppose. The queen felt that she was still willing to try, perhaps didn't realise how alienated from the RF that Diana had become, and she got to the stage I think where she got fed up and still "tried" but with increasing constraint, and resentment.
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  #574  
Old 04-08-2017, 06:00 PM
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is it possible to discuss Diana and Margaret here? We were discussing on Chalres and Di thread which I know is not the right one.
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  #575  
Old 04-08-2017, 09:23 PM
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Yes, I expect so.
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  #576  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:03 PM
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I'm sure Margaret, Anne, Sophie and the others have been discussed on this thread before, with regard to Diana.
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  #577  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:56 PM
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we were discussing earlier today (sorry I can't remember who exactly) about Margaret and Diana. were they alike? I think there were some resemblances, that they both were more arty than sporty, and boht were somewhat rebellious.
but Margaret was very conscious of her rank and when she disagred with Diana, she emphaisised that Diana was only married into the RF, and so not as important as those who were royal by birth.
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  #578  
Old 04-09-2017, 12:38 AM
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Yes, Margaret was always conscious that she was a King's daughter and had the same sort of views on royalty as Princess Marina. Odd in a way in that Margaret's mother was an Earl's daughter (like Diana) and therefore a commoner.

Neither were great fans of country life. There were tales of an older Margaret holing herself up in her Balmoral bedroom for hours listening to the radio under the excuse of having to write letters.

Both enjoyed being around actors, actresses and other celebrities and being admired in those circles. They were alike in that they were quite selfish in their friendships and in social settings. Margaret demanded that others should sing show tunes around the piano when other guests were more than ready for bed, getting acquaintances to hold ash trays for her etc, while Diana in her neediness just demanded far too much time and attention from friends when she was feeling down or lonely or neglected.
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  #579  
Old 04-09-2017, 06:20 AM
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I think that there were similiarities that led to their being friends for a while (I think that Diana said she "loved Margo") but Marg is IMO a much less likable person than Diana, and when they fell out, she got really mean. (OK I Know Di could get mean too -) but I understand that when Di bought a present for Lady Sarah C when sh had a baby, there was such an icy chill from Marg that she had to give the present ot Marg's chauffeur to give to Sarah C.
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  #580  
Old 04-09-2017, 06:25 AM
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I can't bring myself to think that the RF was ever "scared" of Diana. To pin that on her is giving her a bit more power and chutzpah than she ever really had. I think they were quite appalled at some of her behavior and they wouldn't, at that point, put it past Diana to use the press to her own advantages. The family had already known of and witnessed quite a bit of Diana's "odd" behavior and wouldn't have been overly surprised at anything Diana did. I tend to believe that the predominant mood of the family would tend to be more embarrassed to have someone that acted like Diana did in the family.

Just my take on it anyways.
Because belonging to her "class", turning a blind eye even in the early years of her marriage, to extra marital affairs was part of the lifestyle? Apparently yes, and even the Queen apparently did!

The two differences being Diana belonged to a different generation where that, regardless of class no longer had a generic acceptance and this was no affair! It was deadly serious.
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