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  #401  
Old 05-19-2016, 03:02 PM
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I
I think it was reasonably cordial in the first years of the marriage, but the Queen Mother's character and personality was radically different to Diana's and I don't think she understood Diana very well. Her life as a woman of twenty in an aristocratic world .
I think that at first all the RF were willing to like Diana and seemed pleased that Charles had found such a pretty young wife, who was very suitable, and seemed SO popular with the press and public. But I feel that before very long, they mostly began to see her as "not fitting in", and to find her hard to relate to. And certainly the queen Mother would never have stood by Diana if she either disrespected the Monarchy by complaining in the press, or made her beloved grandson unhappy. As you say she was of the "you do your duty and don't complain or talk outside the family..." school...and I'm sure she could NEVER understand Diana's different ways and nature.
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Old 05-19-2016, 03:46 PM
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From what I understand; Diana, The Queen and Queen Mother got along pretty well. There were some difficult times (the Queen's words), but they admired and respected each other.

We know Diana admired Princess Anne's dedication to her work. Diana had a very close relationship with the Kent's, Prince Edward and Andrew. Of course Diana and Sarah were close for many years.

In-law relationships can be very loving and very close, but there can be some ups and downs along the way. The Windsors are pretty much like all families. They enjoy each other's company, but they also have differences among each other and don't always see eye to eye. That's just the reality of family life.

The family went through a bad loss on Diana's passing, but I'm sure when they reflect back, they remember the fun times they had with Diana and appreciate her contribution to the firm.
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  #403  
Old 05-19-2016, 08:44 PM
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Gee, Dman, you have a very sunny and optimistic view of how families view people who have joined them through marriage and have then divorced a member in acrimony! Good on you! Several families that I know have closed ranks after a searing separation and divorce and haven't had a good word to say about the ex member since.

I'm not so sanguine that all the Windsors firmly set their minds on remembering the good times with Diana afterwards. After the War of the Wales's, the Morton book, Panorama and the rest, that is! Yes, I'm certain that the Queen, a deeply religious woman attempted to see both sides, as did Philip. Charles struggled I'm sure after everything that had occurred, (as did Diana) to be civil after the divorce, and after her death remember the good times.

Princess Michael, Princess Margaret, the Prince of Wales's siblings, even the Queen Mother, I'm not so sure! It is true that Diana admired Anne's work ethic and to a certain extent Anne may have sympathised with Diana over Charles's manner towards her at times. However, they were almost diametrically opposed in character and personality, and by no stretch of the imagination were they ever close.

We have to remember that Windsor actions after Diana's death, the funeral arrangements, the attendance at the funeral, the Queen's tribute to Diana on TV etc, were driven by the outward public grief in Britain at the time. Public image is extremely important to the BRF and they had received a body blow.

Public actions and words at the time may very well have not corresponded to what went on in private, in spite of the terrible shock I'm sure they all felt at the death of Diana. After all, the Queen at first, until persuaded otherwise, wanted a private funeral for Diana under the Spencet aegis. This was logical. Diana was no longer a member of the family. It was just out of tune with the public mood.
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  #404  
Old 05-19-2016, 08:58 PM
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Gee, Dman, you have a very sunny and optimistic view of how families view people who have joined them through marriage and have then divorced a member in acrimony! Good on you! Several families that I know have closed ranks after a searing separation and divorce and haven't had a good word to say about the ex member since.

I'm not so sanguine that all the Windsors firmly set their minds on remembering the good times with Diana afterwards. After the War of the Wales's, the Morton book, Panorama and the rest, that is! Yes, I'm certain that the Queen, a deeply religious woman attempted to see both sides, as did Philip. Charles struggled I'm sure after everything that had occurred, (as did Diana) to be civil after the divorce, and after her death remember the good times.

Princess Michael, Princess Margaret, the Prince of Wales's siblings, even the Queen Mother, I'm not so sure! It is true that Diana admired Anne's work ethic and to a certain extent Anne may have sympathised with Diana over Charles's manner towards her at times. However, they were almost diametrically opposed in character and personality, and by no stretch of the imagination were they ever close.

We have to remember that Windsor actions after Diana's death, the funeral arrangements, the attendance at the funeral, the Queen's tribute to Diana on TV etc, were driven by the outward public grief in Britain at the time. Public image is extremely important to the BRF and they had received a body blow.

Public actions and words at the time may very well have not corresponded to what went on in private, in spite of the terrible shock I'm sure they all felt at the death of Diana. After all, the Queen at first, until persuaded otherwise, wanted a private funeral for Diana under the Spencet aegis. This was logical. Diana was no longer a member of the family. It was just out of tune with the public mood.
You are quite correct. The BRF wants perfect public image. They didn't get it at this time. How they could discount Diana's affect was utterly egotistical. They were important, not her. Prince Harry kept thinking his mother couldn't be dead, they didn't mention her at the church service for prayer. Sometimes it take street smarts to see where you stand. Today, the queen is lionized, she is quite old and has done a wonderful job, such as it is. She dropped the ball with Diana. Remember, Princess Margaret had her life ruined for the family. Then she had affairs with sometimes very young men. In many ways her life was pitiful. She raised great children. She died almost unnoticed.
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  #405  
Old 05-19-2016, 09:11 PM
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Curryong-I'd read years ago that the Spencer family originally wanted to have a small, private funeral for Diana and that the Queen was in agreement with their plans. Then the government pressed for a ceremonial one due to the public mood. Have you read something similar?
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  #406  
Old 05-19-2016, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Gee, Dman, you have a very sunny and optimistic view of how families view people who have joined them through marriage and have then divorced a member in acrimony! Good on you! Several families that I know have closed ranks after a searing separation and divorce and haven't had a good word to say about the ex member since.

I'm not so sanguine that all the Windsors firmly set their minds on remembering the good times with Diana afterwards. After the War of the Wales's, the Morton book, Panorama and the rest, that is! Yes, I'm certain that the Queen, a deeply religious woman attempted to see both sides, as did Philip. Charles struggled I'm sure after everything that had occurred, (as did Diana) to be civil after the divorce, and after her death remember the good times.

Princess Michael, Princess Margaret, the Prince of Wales's siblings, even the Queen Mother, I'm not so sure! It is true that Diana admired Anne's work ethic and to a certain extent Anne may have sympathised with Diana over Charles's manner towards her at times. However, they were almost diametrically opposed in character and personality, and by no stretch of the imagination were they ever close.

We have to remember that Windsor actions after Diana's death, the funeral arrangements, the attendance at the funeral, the Queen's tribute to Diana on TV etc, were driven by the outward public grief in Britain at the time. Public image is extremely important to the BRF and they had received a body blow.

Public actions and words at the time may very well have not corresponded to what went on in private, in spite of the terrible shock I'm sure they all felt at the death of Diana. After all, the Queen at first, until persuaded otherwise, wanted a private funeral for Diana under the Spencet aegis. This was logical. Diana was no longer a member of the family. It was just out of tune with the public mood.
Yes, the relationships between Diana and her in-laws were up and down. That's what I stated before. The Queen said there were difficult times and those feeling mellowed with the passing of time.

The royals did enjoy Diana too. Everything wasn't in turmoil all the time.

Diana and Charles's relationship began to heal after their divorce. They were talking again and Charles used to visit her at Kensington Palace. They shared custody of the boys and pretty much agreed on how they were going to be raised.

I'm not sure how close Diana was to Anne, but we do know that Diana admired how hard Anne worked within the family. They had a good time with each other from time to time though. Do remember, the media pretty much had those two in war with each other all the time.

Diana's family wanted the private service and The Queen were going to honor their wishes. William and Harry and Charles pushed for Diana's public funeral. Diana may not have had the HRH anymore, but she was the mother of a future King and that made the difference. Also the people wanted a proper farewell too.
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  #407  
Old 05-20-2016, 02:00 AM
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Diana wasn't prayed for at the Sunday service after her death because they were attending the Church of Scotland, which doesn't pray for the dead. The minister could have been asked not to mention Diana's death during the service so as not to further upset William and Harry. Or perhaps he thought it best himself.

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Prince Harry kept thinking his mother couldn't be dead, they didn't mention her at the church service for prayer.
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  #408  
Old 05-20-2016, 02:15 AM
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According to Sarah Bradford's biography of Diana the minister at Crathie church used the same sermon he was going to use before news of the accident occurred, including jokey references to Billy Connelly. I think everyone, including him, was a bit shell shocked. Apparently there was a debate (rows?) at Balmoral though, about whether a Queen's Flight aircraft should be used to bring Diana back to Britain.
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  #409  
Old 05-20-2016, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
According to Sarah Bradford's biography of Diana the minister at Crathie church used the same sermon he was going to use before news of the accident occurred, including jokey references to Billy Connelly. I think everyone, including him, was a bit shell shocked. Apparently there was a debate (rows?) at Balmoral though, about whether a Queen's Flight aircraft should be used to bring Diana back to Britain.
The flight was already arranged for Charles to fly to Paris to be with her when he got the news that Diana was in an accident. He was planning to be at her side, but when he got the news that she had died, the arrangement was made to bring her body back to London with her two sisters.
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  #410  
Old 05-20-2016, 03:35 AM
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. . . . . Apparently there was a debate (rows?) at Balmoral though, about whether a Queen's Flight aircraft should be used to bring Diana back to Britain.
Call me old-fashioned, but I like to have a reputable reference to back up inflammatory statement. Without valid references so called "facts" are actually only factoids.
There are many creative situations and conversations in docu-dramas as well as fictional accounts of actual events, such as the film "The Queen". Dialogue becomes erroneously entrenched in people's memories as 'truth'.
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  #411  
Old 05-20-2016, 03:39 AM
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Curryong-I'd read years ago that the Spencer family originally wanted to have a small, private funeral for Diana and that the Queen was in agreement with their plans. Then the government pressed for a ceremonial one due to the public mood. Have you read something similar?
The Specers did want a private funeral but when they came back to Enlgand with Di's body and saw the crowds, I think they realised that they couldn't really deny the people who had loved Diana a share in her last rites. So, they were agreeable to a public funeral. I think the queen would have greatly preferred a private funeral and left her to the Spencers but the public mood WAS hostile ot the RF, and angry about Diana's death and she had to go along with it..
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  #412  
Old 05-20-2016, 03:53 AM
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Call me old-fashioned, but I like to have a reputable reference to back up inflammatory statement. Without valid references so called "facts" are actually only factoids.
There are many creative situations and conversations in docu-dramas as well as fictional accounts of actual events, such as the film "The Queen". Dialogue becomes erroneously entrenched in people's memories as 'truth'.
The Queen's Flight reference was in Sarah Bradford's biography of Diana. All Royal biographies are creative in one form or another. I've read many biographies of Diana, both pro and against her, and Bradford's was the nearest to hand for me this afternoon.

None of us were there or privy to the Royal family's conversations on that particular day, and we all who post on the Diana threads bring our own feelings and convictions about the late Princess of Wales to the proceedings.
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  #413  
Old 05-20-2016, 07:51 AM
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I've consulted Penny Junor's book 'Charles, Victim or Villain' about the plane business in the aftermath of Diana's accident. Junor is no admirer of Diana, and in her book it is made clear that there was a huge debate going on, both while it was thought that Diana was injured in hospital and after the news came through of her death.

'After news came through that Diana was seriously hurt Mark Bolland phoned Robin Janvrin to tell him that the Prince would be flying to Paris later that day and needed a plane.

His request did not go down well initially. Was it the right thing to do, wondered Janvrin. An aeroplane of the Queen's Flight couldn't be ordered without the Queen's specific agreement and that was unlikely to be forthcoming.

"Okay, fine" said Bolland "we'll take a scheduled flight from Aberdeen".

Junor then writes about the lack of communication between the Queen and the Prince of Wales, who were in nearby suites in the castle. She writes 'So it was their staff who were discussing the rights and wrongs of asking the Queen's permission for Charles to take her plane.'

After the news came of Diana's death 'the Prince decided that he should be the one to go to Paris to collect Diana's body but the Queen, (according to Junor, who has links with some of Charles's staff and longtime friends,) was against the idea and was strongly supported in that by her Private Secretary. The Princess, Fellowes argued, was no longer a member of the royal family and so it would be wrong to make too much fuss.

Robin Janvrin came up with the remark that clinched the matter. "Would you rather, Ma'am," he said "that she came home in a Harrod's van?" Junor goes on to say 'There was no further argument'.

Junor uses the word 'argument'. It's clear there was a debate, to put it mildly, and that Queen's Flight plane availability to the Prince, and Charles's journey to Paris in such a plane later (with the Spencers) was no foregone conclusion.
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  #414  
Old 05-20-2016, 08:04 AM
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I agree with Curryong that I don’t believe the RF were happy with Diana at all, in fact I think that their disillusionment went back to early in the marriage when they could see that although the public loved her, she was difficult and stormy and her bulimia was probably a big worry to them, that it might cause her serious health problems or drive her to wild behaviour. Even if some of them disapproved of C’s indifference to her or his affair, I think that even then, families will tend to side with their own flesh and blood over the relation by marriage, and so most of them were not happy with Diana from early on..
I think that as time has passed the queen at least has put it in the past and forgiven her for the problems, but I don’t believe that most of the RF has really done so…. They probably don’t think about her much but they surely don’t think of her kindly! Look at Lady Pam Hick’s book a few years ago.
I don’t think that the relationship with her and the rest of the BRF were ever that close, I’d say she got on ok with Andy and Edward at first and with the Kent’s and P Margaret but that cooled as time went on and Diana became more alienated from the Royal ways and went her own way. I certainly think Dman’s being very optimistic about how the RF views Diana, now. It’s far from uncommon for people NEVER to get on very well with in laws anyway... And when there’s been a bitter divorce, played out in public, I don’t think that the wounds ever heal in many cases. The “nice things” that the RF has said about Di AND the nice things she said about them in both cases were about PR…I don’t think that she liked them much better than they liked her, at least after the first few years. I’m sure she and Anne never got along, they were VERY VERY different people, and while Anne’ may have felt tat times that Charles was unkind to Diana, I find it hard to believe that she was bothered about his affair, since Diana was having an affair also.

But in short, No I don't believe that the RF have liked Di for a long time and that hasn't changed much... and I dnt think she liked htem after the first years.
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  #415  
Old 05-20-2016, 11:34 AM
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Curryong-I'd read years ago that the Spencer family originally wanted to have a small, private funeral for Diana and that the Queen was in agreement with their plans. Then the government pressed for a ceremonial one due to the public mood. Have you read something similar?
To be completely honest--and excuse me if this sounds mean to people--but I would think this the appropriate course of action as well. One of the things that bothers me about the public funeral and the whole "public having a right to mourn" is that it places the mourning of strangers over the mourning of the two most important people in this scenario: W and H. That was their mother; in their time of utmost grief I doubt they would want millions of people watching them in such a private moment. If she was still part of the RF they would have no choice, but as long as there was a choice, I think that a private funeral would have been the route I would push for as well. I have many critiques for how the royals behave sometimes, but personally I found that particular criticism to be unfair.
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Old 05-20-2016, 12:16 PM
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To be completely honest--and excuse me if this sounds mean to people--but I would think this the appropriate course of action as well. One of the things that bothers me about the public funeral and the whole "public having a right to mourn" is that it places the mourning of strangers over the mourning of the two most important people in this scenario: W and H. That was their mother; in their time of utmost grief I doubt they would want millions of people watching them in such a private moment. If she was still part of the RF they would have no choice, but as long as there was a choice, I think that a private funeral would have been the route I would push for as well. I have many critiques for how the royals behave sometimes, but personally I found that particular criticism to be unfair.
William and Harry did mourn their mother privately, but they knew their mother and the people had a special bond and they too wanted a chance to say goodbye.

The Spencer's and Windsor's did the right thing in her funeral planning.
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Old 05-20-2016, 01:00 PM
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To be completely honest--and excuse me if this sounds mean to people--but I would think this the appropriate course of action as well. One of the things that bothers me about the public funeral and the whole "public having a right to mourn" is that it places the mourning of strangers over the mourning of the two most important people in this scenario: W and H. .
But she was a public figure and had been part of the RF, and was still connected with them through W and Harry. I think that yes it was hard for them probably to have to take part in a public funeral, but I think that they should have been - well glad isn't the word - but felt something about the fact that their mother was so much loved that people did grieve at her death and did want to say goodbye to her. Perhaps I'm biased in that in my country a funeral isn't a "private thing", usually and that anyone who wants to come and pay their respects is welcome...

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His"Robin Janvrin came up with the remark that clinched the matter. "Would you rather, Ma'am," he said "that she came home in a Harrod's van?" Junor goes on to say 'There was no further argument'.
I think there may have been some disputing, but it is possible that Junor's version of events is trying ot make the older RF look "out of touch" while praising Charles. I don't believe that the queen wanted the RF to have anythng to do with Diana's death and funeral, and I think that Charles DID, because he wanted to do the right thing, belatedly perhaps and let his ex wife be seen as a part of his family, and have a public funeral..
But I don't believe it was an argument in the sense of a "nasty row" and I CERTAINLY can't believe that anyone would say anything to the queen like "would you rather she came in a Harrods van..."
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  #418  
Old 05-20-2016, 01:34 PM
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IIRC the PM put some pressure on the Queen as well when it came to how Diana's death was handled.


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  #419  
Old 05-20-2016, 01:35 PM
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But she was a public figure and had been part of the RF, and was still connected with them through W and Harry. I think that yes it was hard for them probably to have to take part in a public funeral, but I think that they should have been - well glad isn't the word - but felt something about the fact that their mother was so much loved that people did grieve at her death and did want to say goodbye to her. Perhaps I'm biased in that in my country a funeral isn't a "private thing", usually and that anyone who wants to come and pay their respects is welcome...
I fail to see how that would be comforting to be honest. Especially when massive public interest was a contributing factor to the accident in the first place.
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  #420  
Old 05-20-2016, 07:04 PM
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I would say that however terrible it is to lose one's mother, it is a little consolation (perhaps not immediately but later on) to think that she was so well loved and that others besides her own family were grieved at her death.. and that the people of Britain cared that she had died. And as I've said, in some cultures, funerals aren't private.. anyone wanting to go to a funeral, is allowed to go and to pay their respects..
And Diana's death wasn't to do with massive public interest in her per se, it was an accident caused by the actions of a number of photographers, coupled with the careless and stupid behaviour of the people who were supposed to be guarding Diana.. I Mean the Fayed family..Had they been more organised, the car would not have been driven by a man who had little experience of driving such a car and who had drink taken.
Further more in 2007 Will and Harry organised a concert in Diana's memory, which I'm sure was a tribute to her but which also got them a lot of attention...So if they felt that their mother's death was a private thing, why did they do this and bring it all up again years later?
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