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  #741  
Old 06-18-2011, 10:55 AM
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The notion that people feel "willing to wait" is ... strange. It implies a choice. It implies we run the monarchy by popular vote. We wait because Charles is next and then William. I like William, frankly, despite the fact that his mother seems to have suffered from some form of mental instability which would be a terrible thing to sit latent in such a promising young man. But even so, like or dislike, it's Charles and then William and that's the way it is - whether we be willing or unwilling.

I think *this* - the notion that we're somehow in charge of the succession by our popular opinion - is, sadly, Diana's most enduring legacy.
But it is! The notion of people willing to wait is the reality (as much as you and I don't agree with). Monarchy needs popularity, but they need it in their own terms. If they loose people's approval they will be overthrown.
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  #742  
Old 06-18-2011, 01:59 PM
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Would there have been a need for this thread if the following scenario had occured? First we must assume that, for Charles, Camilla was, and remains, the love (what ever that word means to him) of his life. It then follows that what he felt for Diana,- given that he didn't fall OUT of love with Camilla only to fall IN love with her again-was something less. So, the time has arrived when Charles has to find himself an appropriate bride-enter Diana Spencer. However, before he pops the question he tells her "Now look here, old thing, you're a jolly girl, I'm very fond of you and I think my parents are keen for us to marry. However, before you give me an answer, I must tell you that I'm very fond of-well, actually I'm in love with someone else, sorry Darling, did you say "Who?" well, actually, it's Camilla. Yes, I know you had lunch with her yesterday. Actually, it was she who said that you would be a good choice. Darling, please don't cry, I can't cope with tears. No. this doesn't change anything, you as my wife will be The Princess of Wales and when the time comes Queen Consort, hopefully, before then, once we've established that everything down there is in working order, you'll be the mother of my children-think you'll be good at that, worked with children, didn't you? Anyway Darling, you have a think on it....Oh, nearly forgot, they're bringing a tray of rings for you to look at tomorrow morning"
I wonder how those of us, closer to HRH in years and experience would have coped with such a scenario let alone a teenaged aristocrat thirteen years his junior-at her age I'm certain I would have believed myself to be a match for an old trout of 30plus. I believe an older woman would have stood a better chance of making it work in her favour.
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  #743  
Old 06-18-2011, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
Would there have been a need for this thread if the following scenario had occured? First we must assume that, for Charles, Camilla was, and remains, the love (what ever that word means to him) of his life. It then follows that what he felt for Diana,- given that he didn't fall OUT of love with Camilla only to fall IN love with her again-was something less. So, the time has arrived when Charles has to find himself an appropriate bride-enter Diana Spencer. However, before he pops the question he tells her "Now look here, old thing, you're a jolly girl, I'm very fond of you and I think my parents are keen for us to marry. However, before you give me an answer, I must tell you that I'm very fond of-well, actually I'm in love with someone else, sorry Darling, did you say "Who?" well, actually, it's Camilla. Yes, I know you had lunch with her yesterday. Actually, it was she who said that you would be a good choice. Darling, please don't cry, I can't cope with tears. No. this doesn't change anything, you as my wife will be The Princess of Wales and when the time comes Queen Consort, hopefully, before then, once we've established that everything down there is in working order, you'll be the mother of my children-think you'll be good at that, worked with children, didn't you? Anyway Darling, you have a think on it....Oh, nearly forgot, they're bringing a tray of rings for you to look at tomorrow morning"
I wonder how those of us, closer to HRH in years and experience would have coped with such a scenario let alone a teenaged aristocrat thirteen years his junior-at her age I'm certain I would have believed myself to be a match for an old trout of 30plus. I believe an older woman would have stood a better chance of making it work in her favour.
the "jolly girl" was a marvelous selection. I can actually hear Prince Charles saying it.
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  #744  
Old 06-18-2011, 02:21 PM
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Exactly. The nobility and royalty were the people who funded the artists in days past and gave them a forum in which to display their work. They didn't rub shoulders with celebrities in order to increase their own popularity and power.

I too believe that the Crown is important to Canada's stability. I fear that, as a republic, we would simply be a pale shadow of the US without our own identity.

I think that William and Catherine will try to turn back the tide of "celebrity royalty". They've shown signs during the last several years that they aren't going to contribute to the celebrity machine on an ongoing basis.
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...although there is that famous quote about letting too much light in will let some of the magic out - was that King George V?)
That was Walter Bagehot in his work The English Constitution.Walter Bagehot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #745  
Old 06-18-2011, 07:05 PM
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I think that William and Catherine will try to turn back the tide of "celebrity royalty". They've shown signs during the last several years that they aren't going to contribute to the celebrity machine on an ongoing basis.
I see this as well, and I'm glad about it. I don't think Royals should stay within the confines of the palace, and wear tweed suits, but Diana went much too far into celebrity territory.
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  #746  
Old 06-18-2011, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mia_mae View Post
But it is! The notion of people willing to wait is the reality (as much as you and I don't agree with). Monarchy needs popularity, but they need it in their own terms. If they loose people's approval they will be overthrown.
Agreed - the Monarchy as a whole exists because the public over whom they reign are tolerant of that reign. In the modern world this is generally expressed with a negative proof (they have not been abolished by an act of government which is acting upon public demand).

But I do not believe the public has a right (except in extreme circumstances such as illness, insanity, an evidently immoral character, criminal acts, etc.) to dictate the terms of said Monarchy except for those terms which are contradictory to the laws the country in question passes/has passed into being. They might make requests and express opinions, naturally - but I think the moment a Monarchy allows anything so fundamental as succession laws to be dictated by a popularity contest, it is already overthrown and has become nothing but an ornament. Ornaments always break, sooner or later.

That said, I believe it is the obligation of the Monarchy to be responsive to the opinions/needs of its subjects and sincere in its consideration of their requests. In the vernacular, one should not make demands of the Queen, one must make requests. The tiny little line between a demand and a request is the one that keeps us civilized, I believe.
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  #747  
Old 06-18-2011, 09:30 PM
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I see this as well, and I'm glad about it. I don't think Royals should stay within the confines of the palace, and wear tweed suits, but Diana went much too far into celebrity territory.
Indeed :) They should be modern, but I am SO looking forward to some dignified behavior befitting a future King and Queen.

I think Charles is a decent man at the end of the day and will prove to be a very good bridge Monarch - one between the old and the new. William and Catherine will have a good period of time to establish their own court and decide on the manner of their reign.

It will be nice to feel proud of the royal family again.
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  #748  
Old 06-18-2011, 09:40 PM
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Quite a joke. Their faces plastered on every magazine and periodical. A rush for a trip to Canada and the States, where they will be photographed a million times. They are the poster children to keep the monarchy from falling into the cracks of old age and middle age indifference. An aged, but loved queen and a middle aged and frumpy heir and his, slighly tarnished wife. These two will be seen as much as possible, to make sure the monarchy holds the interest of the masses.
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  #749  
Old 06-18-2011, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I think that William and Catherine will try to turn back the tide of "celebrity royalty". They've shown signs during the last several years that they aren't going to contribute to the celebrity machine on an ongoing basis.
.
Diana thought she could control the 'celebrity' machine and couldn't.

William and Kate will find the same thing - especially with activities like the upcoming one in LA - very much the celebrity do - it is the event to be at this year for the LA celebs - why - because William and Kate will be there.

They are celebrities - that is what the modern royalty has become - thanks to Diana - and William and Kate simply won't be able to ignore the fact that that is their role for the rest of their lives - to feed the celebritiy mentality of the populace.
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  #750  
Old 06-18-2011, 10:42 PM
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They were both blonde and charismatic. Both had a public face and a private face. People believed in both of them but were let down. Edward VIII at least had the wisdom not to cause a crisis by bringing his case to the people.


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I don't think I would make a comparison between Diana and the Duke of Windsor.
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  #751  
Old 06-18-2011, 10:51 PM
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The only hob-nobbing with celebrities I can see is the dinner with the British Film and Television people. One could say that they're supporting British business by being there. There's a polo match for charity and an evening at the British Consulate. All in all, not much different from what Royals did before Diana came along. I think that Diana deliberately fed the machine, which is something that I can't see William and Kate doing. Kate, unlike Diana, doesn't even look at the cameras much. She's also wearing clothing in public that she had years before her marriage. I don't see much in common between how Kate handles things and how Diana did.


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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
William and Kate will find the same thing - especially with activities like the upcoming one in LA - very much the celebrity do - it is the event to be at this year for the LA celebs - why - because William and Kate will be there.

They are celebrities - that is what the modern royalty has become - thanks to Diana - and William and Kate simply won't be able to ignore the fact that that is their role for the rest of their lives - to feed the celebritiy mentality of the populace.
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  #752  
Old 06-18-2011, 11:11 PM
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I agree that a large part of Diana's legacy was turning the British Monarchy into celebrity territory. That is how the press portrays them, and a lot of people see the royals now as just pretty faces on the covers of magazines. I would hope that the Duke, and in particular, the Duchess, of Cambridge don't bow down to this definition in the years to come. Of course, the Kate-sightings of last week ignited a celebrity cover-story frenzy (all about her outfits, no substance). But I do like the fact that people are quick to denounce her clothing/style as "boring" - to me, it's a good thing when people (and most of all, royals!) are recognized and commented on for their actions rather than their exterior! Something, which I believe, is another part of Diana's legacy.
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  #753  
Old 06-18-2011, 11:26 PM
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Quite a joke. Their faces plastered on every magazine and periodical. A rush for a trip to Canada and the States, where they will be photographed a million times. They are the poster children to keep the monarchy from falling into the cracks of old age and middle age indifference. An aged, but loved queen and a middle aged and frumpy heir and his, slighly tarnished wife. These two will be seen as much as possible, to make sure the monarchy holds the interest of the masses.
Oh yes, they will be (...seen as much as possible, to make sure the monarchy...). They *are* celebrities by any definition of the word.

They cannot control that. And we don't want them, too, really. It's good to be known and seen.

What they CAN control, and what I look forward to, is a dignified behavior inside of that celebrity. A responsible management of what they represent to which the attendant and unavoidable celebrity will be a benefit.

Celebrity has no moral value. It is a neutral state to which the celebrant's behavior provides the value of harm or benefit. Gandhi was a celebrity. Ted Bundy was a celebrity. I am simply saying that I believe William and Kate will use their celebrity beneficially and with dignity.
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  #754  
Old 06-19-2011, 12:18 AM
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I still remember my surprise when the late Diana, Princess of Wales, as The Princess of Wales, carried on risque repartee with Dame Edna Everage while at an official function. I think that at times Diana forgot that she was representing the Queen and not herself. Then there was patting her updo and giving a nod to the photographers while going into a banquet (perhaps in the USA?). These things weren't dignified. I've been impressed by Catherine and William's dignity. They don't seem to be the types to do "stunts."

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What they CAN control, and what I look forward to, is a dignified behavior inside of that celebrity. A responsible management of what they represent to which the attendant and unavoidable celebrity will be a benefit.
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  #755  
Old 06-19-2011, 03:51 AM
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Please, let's not blame the poor woman of the windsor castle fire in 1992 as well.
There is NOTHING wrong with bringing a little humor into a public function. Certainly not when Dame Edna is involved. But if that is the case in Britain, the DoE shouldn't be allowed outside the palace walls.

I think, and please do not eat me alive here, that people tend to judge Diana and other royals against Queen Elizabeth as a golden standard. Yes, HM has done a fantastic job, but she is from another generation all together and to me it does not make sense to demand the behavior of a 85 yo woman of a woman 30+. We can of course take advice and guidance, but no one can be expected to live another persons life.

As for the new duchess, she is still trying to find her way. Give her a year or two, and she will show more of herself. And you can bet that every stitch of clothing will be commented on
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  #756  
Old 06-19-2011, 05:17 AM
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The only hob-nobbing with celebrities I can see is the dinner with the British Film and Television people. One could say that they're supporting British business by being there. There's a polo match for charity and an evening at the British Consulate. All in all, not much different from what Royals did before Diana came along. I think that Diana deliberately fed the machine, which is something that I can't see William and Kate doing. Kate, unlike Diana, doesn't even look at the cameras much. She's also wearing clothing in public that she had years before her marriage. I don't see much in common between how Kate handles things and how Diana did.
......And, please God, we will NEVER see that commonality or, I believe, some of the reasons for it. Diana was saying-screaming- "Look at me" mostly, I feel, to Charles who may have been suffering from selective deafness or wishing that the bride who was causing such a stir was Camilla. Also, Diana had no time, prenuptually, to amass a "Royal" wardrobe, she was, after all only 19 and their "courtship," such as it was, only weeks long. Initially I suspect, she allowed designers to dress her in clothes which was THEIR idea of what young, modern Royalty should wear and she hoped that Charles would approve. Katherine, on the other hand, has been with William for the best part of 10 years and part of his daily life for much of that time. She has no need to try to impress him, he IS impressed and she is confident in that. She is also 10 years older than Diana was and her husband is her own age which makes theirs a very different relationship from that of a naive girl and an older man who was emotionally committed to another woman.
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  #757  
Old 06-19-2011, 05:30 AM
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One important legacy Diana left are her sons. The fact that William is not only a prince because his father is the heir of the British throne but he is charming and good-looking (he has the Windsor-looks but mixed with Diana's charme to a much better outcome) and he is Diana's son - all that gives William a personal draw for the üublic's interest. So he won't be outshinded that much by his beautiful wife but they will rather appear as an equally special couple. I recall that at one point people waiting for a Royal walkabout were disappointed when Diana took the other side of the street and they were left with Charles. I don't see this happen to William and Catherine - the people will be happy to have contact with each of them.
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  #758  
Old 06-19-2011, 12:14 PM
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The only hob-nobbing with celebrities I can see is the dinner with the British Film and Television people. One could say that they're supporting British business by being there. There's a polo match for charity and an evening at the British Consulate. All in all, not much different from what Royals did before Diana came along. I think that Diana deliberately fed the machine, which is something that I can't see William and Kate doing. Kate, unlike Diana, doesn't even look at the cameras much. She's also wearing clothing in public that she had years before her marriage. I don't see much in common between how Kate handles things and how Diana did.
More than anyone else, William had the dubious benefit of seeing how Diana's way of being royal worked for her in the end. William seems to have a more restrained personality than Diana, (and Charles for that matter), so maybe he would never have been tempted to blur the royalty/celebrity line, but I also can't help but think he learned a hard but valuable lesson early on in life just by watching what went on with his mother.

I know that many people think that there was something unique about Diana and that the sort of attention she got was inevitable but I've never bought that. Diana cooperated with and manipulated the media to an unprecedented extent and IMO it was that, combined with the the way she and Charles handled their marriage troubles, that set her apart from the kind of fame that, for example, William and Catherine enjoy today. The new Duke and Duchess of Cambridge are two of the best known people in the world now and they can use that recognition to do every bit as much good as Diana did with helping those in need. But at the end of the day they can do things like demand to be left alone in Anglesey and the press is forced to take them seriously because they know when William says "leave me alone" he means exactly that, not "leave me alone until next week when I'll call and let you know where I'll be having lunch so you can stop by and take a picture and I may or may not pretend to be upset." The only thing Diana gained by her 'extra' level of fame was a life of being hunted and no way to turn the clock back.
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  #759  
Old 06-20-2011, 03:23 AM
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Jokes, yes; dirty jokes, no.
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There is NOTHING wrong with bringing a little humor into a public function. Certainly not when Dame Edna is involved.
Yes, this is true. The only thing I remember Diana wearing in public from her pre-engagement wardrobe was the blue-patterned suit that she wore to her sister Sarah's wedding.
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Also, Diana had no time, prenuptually, to amass a "Royal" wardrobe, she was, after all only 19 and their "courtship," such as it was, only weeks long.
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Old 06-20-2011, 04:04 AM
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A part of her legacy could then be considered as the importance of introducing new members in a more thourough way, than she herself was.
That the princes have time to find love and for that love to mature.

And one must also remember, that much of the changes came about after she died. With this I mean, she might have been the platform, but she herself was not to blame for the way the people reacted to her death and the way they treated the RF in the days following. NO ONE saw that happening.

I think the way the RF presents itself today is very applaudable. I have nothing but respect for Her Majesty. She is a tough cookie.
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