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  #201  
Old 06-27-2012, 01:57 AM
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Actually the Princess did turn to a psychiatrist Dr. Maurice Lipsedge for treatment. Dr. Lipsedge also treated her sister Sarah. Through him she learned how to manage her eating disorder in a healthy way.
Something that hasn't been brought up yet in this discussion (correct me if I'm wrong) is acceptance and denial of mental illness.
I do think the BRF and Charles had good intentions of trying to get Diana to see a psychiatrist(I do wonder if Charles ever took the opportunity to educate himself on eating disorders later in his life). But I believe she mistook their intentions and also that of the doctors.
She was not ready to accept that she had a problem. This was happening around 1981 after the honeymoon. Two years before Karen Carpenter died of cardiac failure due to Anorexia Nervousa. That tragedy allowed the general public to be aware of this disease. Back in the 80s there wasn't much information available on eating disorders.
By the time Diana started treatment with Lipsedge she acknowledged that she had a problem and was receiving help to deal with it.

There is still so much to learn about mental illness.
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  #202  
Old 06-27-2012, 02:56 AM
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I think the bulimia problem is overstated here. It is an eating disorder, how is it related to mental health is uncertain. A lot of Youtube video showed people with bulimia are just like other normal person except for the uncontrolable binging and purging. One can not blame everything on bulimia. Make it sounds like once the bulimia gone, everything will be back to normal.

Few people in this thread talk about the depression issue of Diana, which I think is even not more but at least as critical as the bulimia. And Diana had this kind of gene in her. Her uncle, Lord Fermoy suffered from depression for a long time (since his 20s) and finally killed himself at 45.

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  #203  
Old 06-27-2012, 11:06 AM
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Please note that several posts that have nothing to do with the topic of Diana's Eating Disorders and Health issues have been deleted as off topic.

Any questions and/or concerns should be directed to any member of the TRF moderation team via Private Message.

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  #204  
Old 06-28-2012, 01:27 AM
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Just spent some time to read the Sally Smith's book: "Diana, in search of herself". Especially the last chapter where she laid down her reasoning why she thougt Diana suffered from BPD. I put some of my thoughts here.

First, a lot of symptoms of BPD Sally Smith thought Diana had are also symptoms of depression, which Diana did have suffered. Such as self-hatred, low-esteem, feeling of lonely and empty, difficulty controlling anger, self-mutilation, suicide attempts and even bulimia. We can not use these as evidences for BPD of Diana.

I would focus on the exclusive traits of BPD. They are
(1) Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
(2) A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.

Quote:
The most poignant aspect of the borderline personality is the inability to sustain close, mutually gratifying relationships...She showered people with affection and gifts, then cut them off with little or no explanation.
Diana had as many long-time close friends as other people. Isn't it normal that sometimes people just stop contacting for a while between friends? Diana had made a lot of friends in her life, it is impossible to keep in touch with each of them all the time. There is no reason to overstate this issue. Everyone confronts the same problem as her.

Quote:
Diana actually alternated between fears about intimacy and anxiety over separation. If people come too close, she felt suffocated; if they kept a slight distance, she felt abandoned. These problems were invisible to the public. Only intimates saw her worries and erratic behavior.
Another wishful thinking with no supporting evidences. Sure it is invisible to the public, because it is "the Emperor's new clothes".


Quote:
In her closest relationships, Diana showed the borderline's frantic effort to avoid abandonment. ...When Charles went off to work, Diana interpreted his departure as a lack of love. James Hewitt, Oliver Hoare, and Hasnat khan all were the objects of the same pattern of urgent dependency.
When Diana was having a relationship with Hewitt, Hoare, and Khan, she was not living with them under the same roof. She could only see them occasionally, and eventually after each meet, they went off to their own apartment. Diana can tolerate this kind of long-time absense of her other lovers, but can not tolerate charles' leaving for job during only daytime? Kill my logic.

Quote:
When Diana was alone, she felt trapped and isolated. After a close friend or lover left Diana's presence, she reacted in a childlike fashion, as if she feared the other person wouldn't return.
Same doubts here. Except for Charles, Diand didn't live with her lovers under the same roof. Absence of her lovers was persistent in her later relationships. If she was so dread of her lovers departure or absence, it is really hard to imagine how could Diana get on with her life, and how could she endure this kind of relationship for a long time (she was with Hewitt in this way for 5 years!). Moreover, although Diana might hate loneliness, but she was supposed to be one of the best person who was able to tolerate it. Basically after her separation in 1992, she lived alone in Kensington Palace, and she even spent her last 4 Christmas all by herself.

Quote:
At the outset of close relationships, Diana usually screened out negative characteristics in the other person. But, inevitably, the object of her affection would let her down, perhaps by failing to praise her enough. Then she would see only the worst in that person.
This discription of Diana here is totally out of imagination and out of character. I think Mrs Smith was referring to the "extremes of idealization and devaluation" trait of BPD here. I wonder whether Mrs Smith had any evidence to support her claim. Have anyone ever heard of Diana complained or bad-mouthed her ex-lovers? I've never. Even to James Hewitt, who had betrayed her so completely and heartlessly, the only complain she had was “I adored him, I loved him but I was very let down.” I just don't know where Mrs Smith got the impression that she would see only the worst in her ex-lovers.


Basically, a lot of evidence and analysis of BPD of Diana Sally Smith gave in her book were plausible only on the surface. She still lacks the professional skills and critical thinking to diagnose Diana.
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  #205  
Old 06-28-2012, 01:44 AM
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Is this true or rumor that Diana just turned to alternative therapy instead of professional medical help?

As I know she met psychotherapist Susie orbach regularly (twice one week?) between 1993 and 1997. And Diana had been on Prozac for awhile. Prozac is a prescription medicine which can only prescribed by professional doctor. And the dose has to be prescribed according to the specific patient. And when it was taken, it must be under the monitor of a professional doctor, because like any other antidepressant, it is dangerous. So definitely Diana got help from *professional* in this case.
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  #206  
Old 06-28-2012, 03:18 AM
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Prozac, wellbutrin, etc are widely prescribed in the US for only slightly depressed people. It was offered to me for no reason other than being perimenopausal at 38 (early, yes but not exactly worth jumping off a roof). I declined it in favor of St Johns Wort.
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  #207  
Old 06-28-2012, 06:09 AM
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I always thought Diana's mental/emotional problems stem from her birth. She was born after a severely deformed child and a miscarriage. Her mother was pregnant 3 time in about a year's time. (This is not a blame on Frances or John Spencer it was 1960/1961.)

The uterus takes more than 2 years to heal itself.

Yes you can have healthy babies even with yearly pregnancies.
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  #208  
Old 06-28-2012, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Prozac, wellbutrin, etc are widely prescribed in the US for only slightly depressed people. It was offered to me for no reason other than being perimenopausal at 38 (early, yes but not exactly worth jumping off a roof). I declined it in favor of St Johns Wort.
Not so in the UK. From my own experience, Prozac is only prescribed in cases of major depression, given that it's so addictive. My doctor has never prescribed it to me as he feels that my illness hasn't been so severe as to warrant it.
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  #209  
Old 06-28-2012, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbrida View Post
Just spent some time to read the Sally Smith's book: "Diana, in search of herself"...
Obviously you have strong feelings about this issue and of course you have the right to your opinion, as do I.

You seem to think it is an insult to Diana to believe she had a personality disorder. It is an medical condition. If she suffered from a personality disorder, it was not her fault. She should have taken responsibility for getting help, but it is extremely difficult for people with some mental health problems to understand they need help It's part of the disease.

Regarding specific symptoms, you can dismiss her symptoms by stating that it could have just been depression, but that doesn't mean she didn't have a personality disorder as well.

Regarding intense and unstable relationships, maybe Diana didn't have difficulties with every single friend, but she apparently did with those closest to her, including her parents, siblings, husband, and several of her friends and lovers. Andrew Morton admits that she had difficulty sustaining relationships with other adults. She was able to maintain a relationship with people like Paul Burrell, with whom she could control, but she had difficulty dealing with people who saw her as an equal.

With regard to abandonment issues, it would not be accurate to say that someone with a personality disorder feels abandoned every time she is physically separated from another person. Diana would have feared emotional abandonment, not necessarily physical abandonment. As long as she was confident the other person cared for her, she was probably fine when they physically separated.

Also, she certainly publicly criticized Charles, who was an ex-lover. She didn't really criticize her other lovers because she wasn't necessarily anxious to publicly admit she had other lovers during her marriage.

I don't know enough about Prozac to address your point, but I'm sure EIIR knows.
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  #210  
Old 06-28-2012, 11:55 PM
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Well then I guess we can only agree to disagree. Some believe she suffered from BPD, and some others believe she didn't. I won't go as far as to self-diagnose another person since I haven't studied personality disorders and nor am I a counselor or psychiatrist. I don't believe she suffered from BPD but if she did, I would still adore and respect her as I do now.
We are all entitled to our own opinions and beliefs.
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  #211  
Old 07-01-2012, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
You seem to think it is an insult to Diana to believe she had a personality disorder. It is an medical condition. If she suffered from a personality disorder, it was not her fault. She should have taken responsibility for getting help, but it is extremely difficult for people with some mental health problems to understand they need help It's part of the disease.
I don't know why you get this impression. I am also saying Diana had depression, which is also one kind of mental illness, but I don't think I am insulting her. I don't buy the BPD theory is simply because there are not enough substantious evidences out there to make me believe that.


Quote:
With regard to abandonment issues, it would not be accurate to say that someone with a personality disorder feels abandoned every time she is physically separated from another person. Diana would have feared emotional abandonment, not necessarily physical abandonment. As long as she was confident the other person cared for her, she was probably fine when they physically separated.
If she felt she was at risk of being emotional abandoned by her lovers, wasn't she have every ounce of right to have fear of abandonment? Actually, Abandonment fear to some degree is a normal part of human being, which roots from our baby time. We can not treat each fearness of abandoment as something abnormal. That is why (according to wikipedia), when we diagnose BPD we need to see whether the pattern of abandonment fear (or *extremes* of idealization and devaluation) is "inlfexible, persavsive across a wide range of situations, regular and long-lasting".
Personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We can not say, "Oh, Diana had once or twice showed fear of abandonment when she was with Oliver Hoare, when she was with Hasnar Khan,... so she was likely to have BPD." No, we can not say that, because the pattern of her fear was random, not on a regular basis.

I have read several cases of people who are indeed diagosed with BPD, the pattern of their abandonment fear is really inflexible and persavive across a wide range of situations, in the sense that no matter how their partners were caring, understanding and loyal to them, they are still suspecious of their partners' love. And this kind of suspecion happens even on a daily basis.

Quote:
Also, she certainly publicly criticized Charles, who was an ex-lover. She didn't really criticize her other lovers because she wasn't necessarily anxious to publicly admit she had other lovers during her marriage.
There are books about Diana written by her lover (Hewitt), by her bulter, by her personal guard, by her secretary, by her astrologists, and by a lengend of biographers (pro-her or anti-her) who had sources from an army of friends or close friends of her. So we really know a lot of her private life. However, none of this book has ever given even one such example of her complaining or bad-mouthing her ex-lovers except for Charles. Even if she publicly criticized Charles, so what, almost every divorced couple play the same blaming game, she is not an exception. If you want to prove she had BPD, not only you have to provide evidences to show that such critization is a manifestation of a pattern of unstable and intense relationships characterized by alternating between *extremes* of idealization and devaluation, but also you have to show that these extremes of idealization and devaluation happened on an inflexible, and regular basis.
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  #212  
Old 07-01-2012, 03:25 AM
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About how Prozac is used in UK, the following article can give some insights on it. It said

Quote:
An Environment Agency report suggests so many people are taking the drug nowadays it is building up in rivers and groundwater.
BBC NEWS | Health | Prozac 'found in drinking water'

And whether Prozac is strong or not, it also depends on the amount of daily of dose.

About Diana's using Prozac, I think I'd better give some references here to back my claim. It was first mentioned in Andrew Morton's book in 1994. It said

Princess Diana now is (in 1994) controlling the bulimia by using the anti-depressant drug Prozac.

Toledo Blade - Google News Archive Search


The second source is actually from herself.

Quote:
The Princess first visited Clare as she recovered from her surgery at Harefield Heart Hospital in August 1995.
...

"At the time I(Clare) was in a terrible state. I told her(Diana) I was depressed and she said, `We've all been through that'.

"She was talking to me like a friend. I told her I was on Prozac and she said, `Oh, don't worry about that, everyone's on it'. Those words eased me a lot.

From this conversation, first it is sure that Diana knew what is Prozac. Second she seemed to be enough familiar with it that she can assure the girl to not worry. Third, Diana seemed to be still on Prozac at that time (Aug 1995).

However, it is really hard to know exactly how Diana used Prozac. Because unlike those alternative therapists, no professional doctor would come out and tell the world that they've treated and how they treated Diana. Because all of these are confidential information should not be disclosed to the third person. Otherwise it would cause their jobs.
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  #213  
Old 07-01-2012, 01:55 PM
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Anbrida, I appreciate your thoughtful posts. I think we will have to agree to disagree. One of the problems with difficulty of diagnosing psychiatric disorders. I understand why you and Siron11234 do not want to diagnose her after her death, but I don't agree that it isn't possible.

When I look at the timeline of Diana and her relationship with her parents, lovers, friend, other family, staff, etc..., I think there is a pattern of unstable relationships. Obviously she had a few loyal hangers on, but she did not maintain long-term relationships with people who did not put her on a pedestal. For example, shortly after they announced a divorce settlement, a large number of her staff quit.

Regarding feelings of abandonment, she apparently made hundreds of nuisance calls to one lover (Hoare, I think) when he tried to break it off with her. That's pretty extreme.

I also remember Morton talking about Diana's use of anti-depressants. Anti-depressants can help people suffering from bulimia. I hope they gave her some comfort.
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:59 PM
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I do not doubt that living with a person suffering from a mental illness, is not the easiest thing in the world. I am just wondering why Charles, percieved to be so intelligent and well read in psycho analysis, was not able to see her outburst as a symptom of something much deeper and forced her into treatment. Anyone with the smallest insight into mental health issues knows, that the person suffering, is not able to recognize the need for help themselves. One would assume that a husbond would be the one closest to you and should have your best interest at heart.

To me it seems, that the royal family as well as her own family, buried their collective heads in the sand in order to keep up apperances.
I also wonder, why her sisters, brother and mother just seemed to accept being cut off. That alone, would make me as a relative, deeply concerned.
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Old 07-01-2012, 05:28 PM
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In the US a spouse or relative cannot force a person into treatment against their will. You can recommend, provide them with information, but unless they pose a risk to themselves or others your options are limited.
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Old 07-01-2012, 05:46 PM
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I do believe that it is extremely hard to compulsorily detain someone - especially a royal and Charles did try to help Diana. Also, as you said, for an ill person is having a hard time realizing that he or she has a problem and therefore it's even harder for the family to help.

Having been involved with the mental health section myself for a while, I can tell how hard it actually is for friends and family to help - even though they want to.
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  #217  
Old 07-01-2012, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AuroraB View Post
In the US a spouse or relative cannot force a person into treatment against their will.
It is the same in Denmark, but what I meant was, assuming the stories of her different outbursts are true, she has on at least a few occasions posted a threat to herself. She herself told about the cutting with razor blades. If my husband started to do that, I would be very scared and not dismiss it as attention seeking.

But in any case, if she suffered from BPD, I can only pray that she is now free of her deamons and that she is remembered for the good. We all deserve that.
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  #218  
Old 07-02-2012, 12:15 AM
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At the early stage of the marriage, Charles did sent Diana to the therapist. But each time it's Diana alone to see the therapist, Charles had never accompanied her. I guess it is the British Royal Family's style that they don't want to intervene into people's personal life, and its member is supposed to sort themselves out on their own. Of course I am talking about the 80s, maybe they will take a more active role in this issue by learning from Diana's tragic lesson.
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Old 07-02-2012, 01:33 AM
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I sincerly hope so. I Think a lot of lessons has been learned already and the BRF are better for it.
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  #220  
Old 07-02-2012, 07:45 AM
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Her eating disorder was revealed when one of the reporters posted outside their home traced the car of a frequent visitor to a doctor who specialized in eating disorders. So the doctor actually came to their home--Diana didn't go alone to an appointment. We don't know how involved Charles was in her therapy or whether the doctor or Diana wanted him involved.

Apparently Diana wasn't receptive to therapy at that point, which is very common for people who suffer from mental illnesses. Even when they recognize there is a problem, too many feel that they should just be strong enough to overcome it. No one feels that way about diabetes or cancer, but there is a belief that people should be able to control their emotions and feelings. Tragically, it is not always possible.

One of the most incredible things about Diana was that she did help so many other people while she was suffering from her own demons.
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