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  #101  
Old 10-21-2015, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
According various sources the marriage was under heavy strain in 1986 already, a few years later the marriage completely felt apart. On December 1992 the Prince and Princess of Wales separated "amicably".

Apart from all gosspis around Captain Hewitt already popping up in 1983, for the Queen, chef de la famille, it was clear by the mid/late eighties that there were serious problems between the Prince and Princess of Wales. The first dirty linen were hanged out of the palace windows, an absolute no-no for the Queen. Formidable royal ladies like the Queen Mother, the Princess Margaret or the Princess Anne were also around: their relationship with the Princess of Wales looked cold and distant to me, which can also be said about the Duke of Edinburgh.





Formidable royal ladies like Margaret or Anne, who had their share of scandals over the years sometimes put the troubled welsh marriage into shadow and surely caused much embarressment to the Queen.
In later life, I admit, Anne managed to become more "formidable"
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  #102  
Old 10-21-2015, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MichelleQ2 View Post
There is a funny story about the night of this dinner. Diana was to wear another dress... IIRC i think Pink... and then the order was sent over to her that afternoon and she didn't know it was ORANGE... so she scrambled to borrow a white dress at the last minute for the dinner. I always loved that dress so ethereal - but she never wore it again.
It is a nice story but I have some doubts about it. Every detail of a State Visit has been negotiated on beforehand and Diana knew that Queen Beatrix would ignore the British decoration policy and simply create her a Dame Grand-Cross in that Order.

The cassette was most likely presented to the Princess, together with the traditional exchange of gifts. The Prince of Wales already had that Order so Diana must have known on beforehand how it looks...

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  #103  
Old 10-21-2015, 05:56 PM
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Plus, Diana already had a white formal dress--the one she wore to the State Opening of Parliament the year before! She wore a blue dress to the other banquet during that State Visit in 1982, and the sky didn't fall in.
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  #104  
Old 06-21-2016, 08:37 PM
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I'm still shocked that Diana wasn't given a knighthood after her many years of service though. Within two years of marriage, the Duchess of Gloucester was given the Order of St. John. Within 4 years of service, Sophie was given the same Order.

Diana's years of service to The Queen, Country and Commonwealth went pretty much unappreciated.
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  #105  
Old 06-21-2016, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
I'm still shocked that Diana wasn't given a knighthood after her many years of service though. Within two years of marriage, the Duchess of Gloucester was given the Order of St. John. Within 4 years of service, Sophie was given the same Order.

Diana's years of service to The Queen, Country and Commonwealth went pretty much unappreciated.

But she was given the RFO just after the wedding : a HUGUE mark of respect from the Queen and a clear sign of encouragement.
I'm not sure if the late Princess clearly appreciated the value of such a gift.
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  #106  
Old 06-21-2016, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Nico View Post
But she was given the RFO just after the wedding : a HUGUE mark of respect from the Queen and a clear sign of encouragement.
I'm not sure if the late Princess clearly appreciated the value of such a gift.
She did value the family Order. I'm talking about knighthoods though. She wore her family Order whenever possible. She wore it to State dinners, State Banquets, galas and foreign Royal events. Diana didn't take the family order for granted.

The Queen never knighted Diana though. Both of The Queen's current daughter-in-laws have knighthoods. I just think after her years of service, she should've received a knighthood. No Victorian Order, Order of St. John or Thistle.
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  #107  
Old 06-21-2016, 11:29 PM
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As the royal orders we're discussing here are solely given at HM's will and pleasure, I think perhaps the reason that Diana never received anything more than the RFO during her tenure as The Princess of Wales simply because it was only a matter of years before the family realized that the marriage between Charles and Diana was not the stuff fairy tales are made of. As time passed and the tensions escalated, HM's good will and pleasure towards Diana could have been quite an iffy thing.

Diana may have served well in her role as The Princess of Wales but she also brought discord in her private life within the family.
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  #108  
Old 06-21-2016, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
As the royal orders we're discussing here are solely given at HM's will and pleasure, I think perhaps the reason that Diana never received anything more than the RFO during her tenure as The Princess of Wales simply because it was only a matter of years before the family realized that the marriage between Charles and Diana was not the stuff fairy tales are made of. As time passed and the tensions escalated, HM's good will and pleasure towards Diana could have been quite an iffy thing.

Diana may have served well in her role as The Princess of Wales but she also brought discord in her private life within the family.
Well, no one in the family were/are perfect and still got knighted, but I think the woman deserved an knighthood despite what was going down privately. Diana served with grace and dignity no matter what was happening.

I think her work wasn't appreciated by the family at the time.
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  #109  
Old 06-21-2016, 11:57 PM
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I agree. I think the value and degree of her work in public life was seriously devalued by her husband and by the rest of the BRF during her lifetime. It was perhaps only fully comprehended after her premature death. She would have been so pleased with a knighthood I think. It would have meant a great deal.
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  #110  
Old 06-22-2016, 12:52 AM
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Camilla was married for 7 years before she got her RVO, Sophie for 11 - and both had had long term relationships with their husbands before marriage (even if you exclude the affair; Charles and Camilla had a post-divorce relationship of 8 years before they married).

Diana was married for 11 years before the Andrew Morton book, and had almost no relationship with Charles before hand. And the Morton book was only the start of the public blow up - the marital problems had become serious easily 6 years before then. It's not hard to see why the Queen didn't rush to give her orders.

The other argument is that while it is clear that Diana did some amazing things and was in a lot of ways a great representation of Britain and the British nobility on a national and international scale she wasn't the best suited for her role as the wife of a British Prince. She probably would have been great as a British Princess in her own right, but as the spouse she didn't have a knack for knowing when to shine brightly (which she was excellent at), and when to fall into the supporting role. There is a double standard - the blood Royal is always (or almost always) supposed to shine, their spouse isn't. It isn't even a gender thing - the Queen must always shine, the DoE needs to know when to not shine. Charles must always shine, his wife needs to know when to not shine. It's actually something I think Kate is fairly good at - when she and William are together she works off of him, but when she's alone she's getting to know how to be the centre of attention (in a positive way).

It's a weird thing to criticize Diana for, I know. If she had been a diplomat or if she'd been the Queen's daughter, instead of daughter-in-law, she would be praised for her actions, but as the Queen's daughter-in-law her successes, combined with her rocky marriage, was actually hugely detrimental to the monarchy. And I think that's how you have to consider her lack of a knighthood - looking at the whole picture, instead of just the work she did.

That said, had she lived and continued doing the work she did, I think she would have gotten the honours she didn't get during her marriage. Not during the Queen's reign - doing so would have been too easily taken as a criticism of Charles and Camilla by the public - but during Charles' reign. There is every indication that post-divorce Charles and Diana were headed towards a reconciliation and a friendship that they hadn't had during their marriage, and I think Charles would have recognized his first wife's continued work had she lived to see him become King.
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  #111  
Old 06-22-2016, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Camilla was married for 7 years before she got her RVO, Sophie for 11 - and both had had long term relationships with their husbands before marriage (even if you exclude the affair; Charles and Camilla had a post-divorce relationship of 8 years before they married).

Diana was married for 11 years before the Andrew Morton book, and had almost no relationship with Charles before hand. And the Morton book was only the start of the public blow up - the marital problems had become serious easily 6 years before then. It's not hard to see why the Queen didn't rush to give her orders.

The other argument is that while it is clear that Diana did some amazing things and was in a lot of ways a great representation of Britain and the British nobility on a national and international scale she wasn't the best suited for her role as the wife of a British Prince. She probably would have been great as a British Princess in her own right, but as the spouse she didn't have a knack for knowing when to shine brightly (which she was excellent at), and when to fall into the supporting role. There is a double standard - the blood Royal is always (or almost always) supposed to shine, their spouse isn't. It isn't even a gender thing - the Queen must always shine, the DoE needs to know when to not shine. Charles must always shine, his wife needs to know when to not shine. It's actually something I think Kate is fairly good at - when she and William are together she works off of him, but when she's alone she's getting to know how to be the centre of attention (in a positive way).

It's a weird thing to criticize Diana for, I know. If she had been a diplomat or if she'd been the Queen's daughter, instead of daughter-in-law, she would be praised for her actions, but as the Queen's daughter-in-law her successes, combined with her rocky marriage, was actually hugely detrimental to the monarchy. And I think that's how you have to consider her lack of a knighthood - looking at the whole picture, instead of just the work she did.

That said, had she lived and continued doing the work she did, I think she would have gotten the honours she didn't get during her marriage. Not during the Queen's reign - doing so would have been too easily taken as a criticism of Charles and Camilla by the public - but during Charles' reign. There is every indication that post-divorce Charles and Diana were headed towards a reconciliation and a friendship that they hadn't had during their marriage, and I think Charles would have recognized his first wife's continued work had she lived to see him become King.
Sophie was given her first order (Order of St. John) in 2005. 5 years later came the Royal Victorian Order. The Duchess of Gloucester was given the Order of St. John within 2 years of marriage. Camilla got her Victorian Order within 7 years of marriage.

Despite her marital problems, Diana served The Queen, Country and Commonwealth very well. She deserved her knighthood from The Queen, but didn't get it, because her work wasn't really that appreciated. She felt she wasn't that appreciated within the family, and even a former bodyguard of hers once said that The Queen asked Diana to support more pleasant charities. AIDS, leprosy, and other causes Diana was working with at the time was considered to risqué for Royal taste. It wasn't until after her death, her work was appreciated.

Also Diana did know how to let her husband shine when on official duty. The problem was the media fell in love with a very young and beautiful woman, but they couldn't embrass a rather stiff and old before his time Prince of Wales. She naturally shined.

I guess Diana appreciated Queen Beatrix giving her the Order of the Crown in 82 and Egypt awarding her with the Order of the Virtues in 81.
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  #112  
Old 06-22-2016, 03:13 AM
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Diana's only foreign royal Order, with her handwriting in the cassette ("The Dutch Order").

picture

Upon her death it was returned to the Chancellery of the Orders of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. They added it to their museal collection.
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