Diana and Sarah's Relationship

[Denville]

Ah well, yes, if only they had stuck to poking bums with umbrellas. .. *sigh*

I can't help feeling that perhaps that was the start of the end for Diana, though. I think that prior to Fergie joining the RF, she didn't do much wrong in public. Then she had an ally of sorts, and she was young and had been cooped up for years, so I think that Sarah's lively personality led her into very silly antcs like the stag do and the bottom poking, in public that led Di to get a bit of criticism when she had previously had very littte. And maybe S's problems with Andrew and the RF led to her and Diana getting together and talking about the RF and complaining and then plotting to leave. Maybe without that alliance, Di would not have tried to leave...

 

[Denville]

I think that Sarah talked about her attitude toward Charles in her autobiography. I remember her writing that she "missed" him.

I suspect that Was Sarah just trying to make out that she had been more close and "In" with the RF than had been the case. Di was her friend and I can't imagine Charles really taking to Hearty Hoorayish Sarah.
I think there's an anecdote about Charles saying dismissively about his wife and sister in law who were laughing at some silly thing, "Litlte things please little Minds."

 

[VictoriaB]

I suspect that Was Sarah just trying to make out that she had been more close and "In" with the RF than had been the case. Di was her friend and I can't imagine Charles really taking to Hearty Hoorayish Sarah.
I think there's an anecdote about Charles saying dismissively about his wife and sister in law who were laughing at some silly thing, "Litlte things please little Minds."

But wasn't Sarah's father Charles' polo manager? If that's correct, she had probably known him quite well for many years. In those circumstances I can understand why she would miss him although I agree, she does seem to be the antithesis of Charles' usual friends.

 

[Osipi]

But wasn't Sarah's father Charles' polo manager? If that's correct, she had probably known him quite well for many years. In those circumstances I can understand why she would miss him although I agree, she does seem to be the antithesis of Charles' usual friends.

Major Ronald Ferguson was Charles' polo manager. I wouldn't stretch it far enough to say that Sarah would have known Charles quite well during those years though. Like Diana and the connection between the Spencers and the BRF, they were familiar with each other but no definite real bond formed until both Sarah and Diana respectively entered their own periods of courtship, engagement and then marriage with a son of the monarch.

Just my take on things.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, I doubt that Charles saw much of Sarah at all before the marriage. She might have come up for a cheery 'Hello' at the polo club and that would have been it. Sarah's pals before marriage were urban 'Hooray Henry' sort of people and Charles's friends weren't, so they didn't have mutual friends in common.

Like the rest of the family Charles probably responded to Sarah's breezy good humour at first. After all, she adored horse riding, was never averse to a walk in the rain in muddy gum boots, could join in the chatter about deer stalking etc. There was the supposed remark by Charles to Diana viz "Why can't you be more like Sarah?"

However, I do think the gilt came off the gingerbread very quickly as far as Charles was concerned. There were not only the silly incidents and the vulgarities, even before the infidelities came to light.

Sarah is not intellectually inclined, (I doubt she was a fan of anyone like Laurens van der Post), and is the reverse of introspective. I have a suspicion that her bouncy, determinedly enthusiastic manner could become wearing very quickly, and I think Charles's consistent 'glass half empty' and Eeyore attitude to life would cut no ice with his sister in law. These two quickly had nothing much to say to each other IMO!

 

[Pranter]

I would say Anne was not a fan of Sarah either...or Diana for that matter. She seems to like Kate though. I've never been sure about Camilla.

Wasn't Sarah off living elsewhere for several years with that race car driver? Can't imagine she saw much of Charles.

She and Diana could of done some great things together and been a great support to one another...a shame it didn't work out that way.





LaRae

 

[Curryong]

Anne was supposed to have remarked of Sarah after her first few meetings that she "seems a very nice girl." Of course, at the beginning, the royal family were very pleased, I'm sure, that here was someone who fitted into the lifestyle of Balmoral and Sandringham extremely well. The rough edges could be smoothed out, they felt.

I've never noted that Anne seems close to Kate. However, with Diana I don't think the two of them had anything in common at all, really, not in hobbies, emotional nature, ways of looking at the world, fondness for horses, the countryside, anything. She was supposed to have once spoken about writing to Charles about his sarcastic attitude to things Diana said, but that was it.

 

[Ish]

I would say Anne was not a fan of Sarah either...or Diana for that matter. She seems to like Kate though. I've never been sure about Camilla.

As one of Zara's godparents is Andrew Parker Bowles, I'm going to guess that Anne probably gets along fairly well with Camilla.

It's not really a slight against Diana or Sarah that Anne gets along with Camilla when she didn't do so with Diana or Sarah - they were a fair bit younger and had very different interests. Camilla is closer in age and has more similar interests with Anne. Not to mention the fact that they've developed a relationship outside of that of just sisters-in-law - Anne has known Camilla likely as long as Charles, as she's been friends with APB since 1970 and was a guest at Camilla and APB's wedding.

 

[Denville]

I don't think her being the daughter of C's polo manager made her close to Charles.. In fact I think that Ron F was considered pretty much "staff" and not really part of C's circle.. just someone who worked for him.

I think that at first the RF DID as a whole like Sarah, because she was more horsey and lively, than Diana had proved to be.. and Charles may have had a brief time of liking her a bit and thinking she was good natured and fun, which she problaby is, in small doses and that she liked country horsey stuff unlike his wife.
But Id' say that yes, he got fed up with her very quickly.. SHe is very silly, vulgar and loud, and I think within a few yars, he and the others were fed up with the silliness, the prankishness, and She was less inot country sports by then and very very "spendalholic".
He problaby would have seen her as a silly woman who encouraged his wife in silly antics..
As for Anne, I don't think she was fond of either Di or Sarah, again, saw them as foolish, not really up to their job as princesses and perhaps she resented that she did a lot of work for the RF, and they got more notice just for being attractive and well dressed in Di's case or just being lively and funny in Sarah's.. while doing less work and being increasingly indiscreet.
I have read that Anne considered writing to Charles about his attitude to his wife, so I'm not srue if that was about his being dismissive of hr or his affair.. but I don't know.. It doesn't seem very like Anne to care very much..
I don't know if she gets on with Cam, but probably she has more in common with her than she ever had with Diana or Sarah

 

[Denville]

Re sarahs' relationship with Paddy McNally, I don't know if she actualy lived with him. I think that they were a recognised couple and she spent a lot of time with him, but she was living and working in London and socialising with her own pals and occasionally with Royal connextions I suppose. She is a cousin of Robert Fellows who is Di's brother In law and worked for the queen. So she might turn up at a few royal occasions but not be well known or close to Charles.

 

[Denville]

I read the same thing.

However, Diana resented most women who spent any time around Charles, like Kanga Tryon, Tiggy, etc.

So it's not like Fergie was a special case.

?? That's hardly teh same thing.. (Not that I think Sarah did spend time with Charles). Kanga was his ex mistress, Tiggy, Di convinced herself that Charles was having an affair with Tiggy, because Tig DID work for C, was friendly with him and was acting as a sort of Nanny ot the boys. I dont think that she was daft enough to fool herself that Sarah was having an affair with Charles, if only because the 2 of them weren't all that close to each other...
I think within a fairly shot time, Charles got bored with Sarah's silliness and hearty antics and probalby felt that as well as being annoying in herself, she also led his wife into vulgar and silly behaviour..
Yes Diana was somewhat paranoid in her last few years, I think but not to the extent of thinking that Charles would be invovled iwht his brothters's wife whom he didn't see much of and didn't seem to like very much.

 

[Osipi]

One thing that I've come to believe is that once Charles established a warm relationship with someone, it usually became a relationship that endured through the years. I do think he saw a lot of positive aspects in Sarah and so did Diana. One of Sarah's admirable qualities, to me, is that she took people as they are and has a very outgoing, very caring and very giving nature. This is shown to this day by having "the happiest divorce in the world" and she still retains a good relationship with her former mother in law and Andrew's family. Maybe not Philip, but Philip is a law unto himself.

Diana's nature was to feel threatened by anything and anyone that could possibly come between her and how she wanted things to be. A lot of people are this way and isn't right or isn't wrong. It was just her natural inclinations.

A lot of times having a focus on something that could possibly threaten something is exactly what makes that fear become a reality.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I agree with this. The "bottom prodding" is the first occasion when Diana acted up in public. Before that Ascot, she was rather demure, although always friendly. When the rumour came out about her and Sarah dressing up as policewomen first came out, it sounded unbelievable. For one thing, impersonating police officers is illegal. Later on, when the story was confirmed and more details came out, we learned that they had closed the gates at BP as a joke. When Andrew came home, he thought that it was a sign of danger--a kidnap or terrorist threat--and drove away.

I can't help feeling that perhaps that was the start of the end for Diana, though. I think that prior to Fergie joining the RF, she didn't do much wrong in public.

 

[Denville]

One thing that I've come to believe is that once Charles established a warm relationship with someone, it usually became a relationship that endured through the years. I do think he saw a lot of positive aspects in Sarah and so did Diana. One of Sarah's admirable qualities, to me, is that she took people as they are and has a very outgoing, very caring and very giving nature. This is shown to this day by having "the happiest divorce in the world" and she still retains a good relationship with her former mother in law and Andrew's family. Maybe not Philip, but Philip is a law unto himself.

A lot of times having a focus on something that could possibly threaten something is exactly what makes that fear become a reality.

I don't think so... I think Charles is quite as capable of being cool with people as Diana was.. look at how he cut off Kanga...
I don't think he cared much for Sarah, after the first year or so.. I mean it was pretty obvious that she was sily and vulgar, and I honestly don't know how the RF didn't see that... until it was too late.
Sarah and Andy may have a "friendly divorce" but Andrew really wanted the divorce.. According to what I've read, the queen hoped to keep them together, but andrew was insistent.. and while he's at heart a decent guy and has remained loyal to Sarah ( at times ot a ridiculous degree) I don't think that the queen is that fond of her.. If I recall, Sarah was forced to stay for years at a farmhouse on the estate during Xmas, when her girls were staying with the RF.. I thin that now of late, the queen has mended fences, because she's getting older and Sarah is the mother of her grandchildren but I'm sure Phil will not forgive what he saw as S's stupidity and disloyalty to the family and the queen.
I don't think that Sarah's "staying in touch" and on good terms with the RF is as much as she makes it out to be, and it is not necessarily from her being a good hearted person.. it is more to do with her needing some backing, because she continually gets into financial messes..and she needs Andy helping out...so it makes sense for her to stay close to him and to try and keep some kind of friendly thing going with his family...
So no, I doubt if Charles remained friendly with Sarah. I think that he was irritated by her silliness early on and theres a bit form a diary by some socialite, (I can't remember who, maybe Woodrow Wyatt) about a party he was at with some royals in the later years, where Sarah and Diana were laughing at something silly and Charles got annoyed and said "Little things please little minds"..
I think that he saw both girls as foolish and trivial, and when he was browned off with them, just ignored them... He is probably courteous to Sarah if they meet, as his brother's ex wife, but I doubt if he actually meets her often.

I unbelievable. For one thing, impersonating police officers is illegal. Later on, when the story was confirmed and more details came out, we learned that they had closed the gates at BP as a joke. When Andrew came home, he thought that it was a sign of danger--a kidnap or terrorist threat--and drove away.

I don't remember that about the gates? How could they close them? I'm sure there are police/soldiers guarding the place. I Do remember soemthign about Andy thinking that there was a terrorist threat and following royal procedure getting hte hell away from it! but can't remember what it was?
was it that Di and sarah had indeed closed the gates?

but Yes I DO think that Sarah was a bad catalyst for Diana. She was lonely and bored and wanted someone to pal around with, someone who knew what normal life was like, and could be like her old flatmates.. but Sarah is a really daft girl.. Not bad natured, but so stupid... and thoughtless and selfish in a childish way. I think that her pranks amused Di, and Di joined in, because it seemed fun..
Problaby these silly pranks did NOT amuse Charles, and set off more rows in the Wales home.. and perhaps that started Di onto going further to distance herself form him and from the "correct Royal way."
After a while I think that Diana realised that copying Sarah was not a good idea, and she began to distance herself from her bit by bit.. but still, they were both increasingly unhappy as royal wives and they did talk about leaving..
And it was possible for Andre and Sarah to divorce, but I think the accepted idea then around 1990 or so was that the Wales marriage might be a terrible mess but it just had to keep going.. no matter what.. but Diana problaby felt, "why can Fergie get out of her marriage, and I can't" so it put her into a mindset of thinking of getting a divorce... and of defying the RF...

 

[Mermaid1962]

I just saw a source online that said that the girls met him at the gates, but didn't mention that they were closed. Perhaps he saw the uniforms and thought that something was "off". I could be remembering wrongly about the gates behind closed. I'll have to look into it more.

The Independent said something about them closing the gates or planning to.

 

[Curryong]

In Sarah Bradford's biography of Diana the pair of them 'tricked' the police at the BP gates. Personally I think they probably wheedled and pleaded, explained it was a joke etc, and so the gates were shut just as Andrew came driving up.

All royals are trained to react in a certain way to unusual situations and probably Andrew's RPO also told him to quickly drive off, which he did. Fergie later joked that she wondered if they had gone too far when that occurred.

It was a very silly evening all round, really. Diana, Fergie and Elton John's then wife Renate also went on to create a bit of havoc at Annabell's nightclub, dressed in their WPC uniforms. Questions were asked in Parliament about the BP gates incident, as technically it is an offence to impersonate Met police officers, but of course nothing came of it.

 

[Dee Anna]

They might be distant cousins...not sure of the lineage there. Diana said she met Sarah when she started dating Charles. Sarah said they met when they were younger. But, in all the accounts of both their lives, there's never been any indication that they were friends before Charles and Diana got together, so I tend to believe Diana's version. Of course, there's the difference between being friends and having simply met a few times-and I think Diana was referring to their friendship beginning in 1980/1981.

I never read anything about their being related, but of course quite possibly some distant relationship could be true, given they were of the same social circle.

And their paths could have crossed growing up ..... there are one or two photographs of Sarah with Andrew & Edward as children, so very likely times spent in and around the Sandringham Estate would have brought them into each other's orbit.

I believe the actual friendship did start when Diana started going out with Charles; Sarah's father was his polo manager was it?

Easy to see why a friendship would strike up ..... Charles' friends circle of the late teens / early twenties age group would have been fairly non existant. And it was Charles' circle Diana would be expected to now move in when in his company.

I wonder if Sarah felt sorry at all when Diana died... Or if Diana ever had any remorse.

I remember reading something along the lines that Sarah spent a lot of time the night before the funeral sitting with Diana. So, yes, I expect a lot of sadness and regret.

In similiar circumstances I think Diana would have felt the same.

 

[Pranter]

I seem to remember reading that it was Diana who got the two of them together (Andrew/Fergie)...inviting both to some event and then continuing to do so.




LaRae

 

[Curryong]

According to Sally Bedell Smith's biography of Diana Sarah met Andrew for the first time in June 1985, when the Queen invited her to the Windsor house party for Ascot week. This was at Diana's suggestion. She ensured Sarah and Andrew sat together at lunch.

Bedell Smith writes that Diana and Sarah had known each other since their teenage years. Their mothers had been to school together, and their daughters had met irregularly until Diana became engaged. She saw Sarah more often after that. (Diana in fact later recalled that Sarah 'reared her head up' a lot everywhere.) This included Diana's 21st birthday, when they lunched together.

After Andrew and Sarah seemed to get on well at the house party, Sarah became quite a regular guest at Kensington Palace, Highgrove and when Charles and Diana went skiing at Klosters she joined them. Diana and Charles seem to have definitely helped the romance along.

 

[LauraS3514]

According to Sally Bedell Smith's biography of Diana Sarah met Andrew for the first time in June 1985, when the Queen invited her to the Windsor house party for Ascot week. This was at Diana's suggestion. She ensured Sarah and Andrew sat together at lunch.

.

That may have been when they became reacquainted as adults but they did know each other as children. At the time of the engagement there were several pictures released of the two of them as children together on the polo field. It looks to me like they were about ten years old at the time - old enough to remember each other later. Remember, Sarah's father was Prince Philip's polo manager and she would have been around the field quite often.

 

[Denville]

In Sarah Bradford's biography of Diana the pair of them 'tricked' the police at the BP gates. Personally I think they probably wheedled and pleaded, explained it was a joke etc, and so the gates were shut just as Andrew came driving up.

it.

I suppose that is likely what happened. I know I have read something about ANdy finding gates closed and because he's trained to react as in "get out of the way if you see anything that does not look right..." he turned and drove off PDQ
And certianly Di, Sarah and the police were at fault if they closed the gates even for a few seconds.. that's what I mean, that Sarah was SO stupid that she thought these pranks were funny..
And Diana seems to have had a bit of time of finding this sort of thing funny too and going along with it. later I think she realised that it was stupid and that Fergie was leading her into some very silly behaviour that was going to make the public think badly of her and she cooled it with Fergie.

That may have been when they became reacquainted as adults but they did know each other as children. At the time of the engagement there were several pictures released of the two of them as children together on the polo field. It looks to me like they were about ten years old at the time - old enough to remember each other later. Remember, Sarah's father was Prince Philip's polo manager and she would have been around the field quite often.

I thought he was charles' Polo manager.

Anyway Di and Sarah were from the same social circle, but Sarah was poorer and less well connected -I think their mothers were debs together.. so they were problaby friendly as kids and then lost touch, because Diana married intot the RF young.. and Sarah was working..
And later on, they probably met at parties when Di was married and renewed a friendship and Diana saw her as a fun girl who might cheer her up now that she was unhappily stuck in the RF circle..and invited her to meet Andy...

 

[LauraS3514]

I thought he was charles' Polo manager.

Anyway Di and Sarah were from the same social circle, but Sarah was poorer and less well connected -I think their mothers were debs together.. so they were problaby friendly as kids and then lost touch, because Diana married intot the RF young.. and Sarah was working..
And later on, they probably met at parties when Di was married and renewed a friendship and Diana saw her as a fun girl who might cheer her up now that she was unhappily stuck in the RF circle..and invited her to meet Andy...

You're right - I typed "Philip" when I should have typed "Charles" BUT Major Ferguson was in the same polo circles as Prince Philip before that. Sarah might not have had a title, but her family was fairly well-connected: Major Ferguson was closely related to Princess Alice Duchess of Gloucester and Sarah's mother was a niece of a viscount.

 

[Countessmeout]

Yes, Ron was a member of the guards polo club before having to retire from playing, and played/worked with Philip who is president. It was later, 1972 on, he managed for Charles.

Ron's mother Marian was 1st cousins with Princess Alice. Marian's dad Andrew was the son of the 6th duke of Buchleuch (Sarah's great-grandpa). He was 5th child. Alice's father was the 2nd son and heir, John (7th duke), Alice his 5th child. Marian herself was Lady Elmhirst from a 2nd marriage following the death of Ron's father.

Her mother Susan was the maternal granddaughter of the 8th viscount Powercourt, through her mother Doreen. The Viscount himself was maternal grandson of the 2nd earl of Leicester.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, I suppose Sarah's parents were members of those aristocratic and county families that found themselves clinging on to upper middleclass status after World War 2. There were heaps of well connected families without much money about when Sarah and her sister were growing up, and Sarah fitted into those circles well.

I think her self esteem probably suffered a bit, though, not just because of a 'bolter' mother, but because there wasn't much spare cash in her family. Unlike Diana there was no London flat paid for by parental money and she took a number of not particularly exciting jobs after she left school. Her extravagance after she wed, as well as liking for wealthy friends, was a huge problem in Sarah's marriage.

 

[Denville]

True, she was well connected bu there wasn't much money, and she was not very bright, so she didn't have the chances that Di had, although she was "well born". Her cousin is Robert Fellowes, Di's brother in law... and I think her fathter may have gone out with Di's mother...
but he was "working for" charles, and I think was seen as "just a polo manager"..So I think when she married into the RF and was mixing full time iwht the rich and grand, it did go ot her head adn she spent far too much...and was desperate to do anything to make money to keep up .

 

[LauraS3514]

True, she was well connected bu there wasn't much money, and she was not very bright, so she didn't have the chances that Di had, although she was "well born". Her cousin is Robert Fellowes, Di's brother in law... and I think her fathter may have gone out with Di's mother...
but he was "working for" charles, and I think was seen as "just a polo manager"..So I think when she married into the RF and was mixing full time iwht the rich and grand, it did go ot her head adn she spent far too much...and was desperate to do anything to make money to keep up .

I actually have an old magazine from the time of the engagement in which an anonymous "palace official" is quoted as saying the marriage would only last five years not because of Sarah herself per se, but because she was "only the daughter of the stable boy." Ouch. No wonder she felt unwanted and unsupported by the "grey men."

 

[Blog Real]

Yes, Ron was a member of the guards polo club before having to retire from playing, and played/worked with Philip who is president. It was later, 1972 on, he managed for Charles.

Ron's mother Marian was 1st cousins with Princess Alice. Marian's dad Andrew was the son of the 6th duke of Buchleuch (Sarah's great-grandpa). He was 5th child. Alice's father was the 2nd son and heir, John (7th duke), Alice his 5th child. Marian herself was Lady Elmhirst from a 2nd marriage following the death of Ron's father.

Her mother Susan was the maternal granddaughter of the 8th viscount Powercourt, through her mother Doreen. The Viscount himself was maternal grandson of the 2nd earl of Leicester.

Yes. Diana, Sarah and Camilla descended from King Charles II of England. But Diana's family is the most important.

 

[Katrianna]

I treat quotes by "anonymous palace officials" the same way I treat the same by "anonymous friends", made up by the author of the article. However, later in the York marriage, one of the palace staff described Sarah as, " vulgar, vulgar, vulgar".
The problem with Sarah was, she didn't know when to stop with her goofy acting/antics. Sure, she was first described as a breath of fresh air in the Royal Family, but after a while her sense of fun became more the actions of immaturity and attempts to gain the spotlight and it got old with the public. I don't know, of course, if Diana came to the same realization or she was advised to back away from the antics, but in time she did put some distance between the two of them.
I remember the two couples on the annual skiing trip, Diana and Sarah started play tussling and Charles was extremely upset with the action. Then there was the disasterous "It's A Royal Knockout" tv show. Apparently, Diana wanted to appear with the Yorks, etc. and Charles put his foot down and stopped her. That was the wisest decision Charles made. I have British neighbors and we talked about that show one time years ago and they said Sarah made an absolute fool of herself and of course, Andrew, Anne and Edward weren't in the best spotlight either.
It's sad that Diana and Sarah were on bad terms at Diana's death, but I've written, Sarah goes too far and alienates herself.

 

[Blog Real]

I treat quotes by "anonymous palace officials" the same way I treat the same by "anonymous friends", made up by the author of the article. However, later in the York marriage, one of the palace staff described Sarah as, " vulgar, vulgar, vulgar".
The problem with Sarah was, she didn't know when to stop with her goofy acting/antics. Sure, she was first described as a breath of fresh air in the Royal Family, but after a while her sense of fun became more the actions of immaturity and attempts to gain the spotlight and it got old with the public. I don't know, of course, if Diana came to the same realization or she was advised to back away from the antics, but in time she did put some distance between the two of them.
I remember the two couples on the annual skiing trip, Diana and Sarah started play tussling and Charles was extremely upset with the action. Then there was the disasterous "It's A Royal Knockout" tv show. Apparently, Diana wanted to appear with the Yorks, etc. and Charles put his foot down and stopped her. That was the wisest decision Charles made. I have British neighbors and we talked about that show one time years ago and they said Sarah made an absolute fool of herself and of course, Andrew, Anne and Edward weren't in the best spotlight either.
It's sad that Diana and Sarah were on bad terms at Diana's death, but I've written, Sarah goes too far and alienates herself.

What show was this?

 

[Skippyboo]

Edward did a tv show where you had 4 teams of celebrities headed by a royal compete at various games while dressed up in medieval costumes. It was a pretty bad tv show.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6vRB0EK0w3c


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