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  #121  
Old 12-06-2007, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
I completely agree with your post. I have more sympathy for Diana then Fergie. Andrew loved and cared about her and she threw his love in his face by having her affairs. Charles didn't love Diana despite that she loved him.
Diana did alot things in her life that she probably wasn't proud of. There is not one poster on this forum that can say that they did everything perfect in their lives. Almost everyone once in their lives have been vindictive, vengeful, petty, angry, sad, jealous and happy. Diana and Sarah were/are human and made alot of mistakes but also alot of good choices that helped many people.
I agree with this.Sarah had a hard time,but it seems like she was unnecessarily cruel to Andrew by being so blatant about her affairs. I know that she was very unhappy with Buckingham Palace Courtiers,but Andrew loved her...he stood by her throughout the troubles as much as he could. But, of course,we all don't know the whole story,so we can only have opinions on what we do know.
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  #122  
Old 12-06-2007, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
Diana did alot things in her life that she probably wasn't proud of. There is not one poster on this forum that can say that they did everything perfect in their lives. Almost everyone once in their lives have been vindictive, vengeful, petty, angry, sad, jealous and happy. Diana and Sarah were/are human and made alot of mistakes but also alot of good choices that helped many people.
True, but none of the posters is actually idolized like Diana still is by some.
I judge her by the impression she made on me through two documents that I know are genuine: the "Squidgy"-tapes and the Panorama-interview. And I don't like her at all. She was heartless, arrogant, vain and trying to apply blame where she thought it helped her reach her goals. Okay, she was only human. But I meet nicer human beings any day!
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  #123  
Old 12-06-2007, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
True, but none of the posters is actually idolized like Diana still is by some.
I judge her by the impression she made on me through two documents that I know are genuine: the "Squidgy"-tapes and the Panorama-interview. And I don't like her at all. She was heartless, arrogant, vain and trying to apply blame where she thought it helped her reach her goals. Okay, she was only human. But I meet nicer human beings any day!
Its sad that you judge her only on her faults in life.
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  #124  
Old 12-06-2007, 06:06 PM
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I thought this was a discussion about Diana and Sarah's relationship with each other? It isn't about who we feel sorry for, or who we defend. The truth is Diana was unjustified in the way she treated Sarah and there is no getting around that truth. We can try to make all the excuses we want for her, but what it comes down to is that she did a lot of things wrong. I myself have done things wrong, too, but never EVER did I embarass the Monarchy of a country, or my family for that matter. I had more sense. Diana had every advantage there was available to her, and she still was not able to be happy. I think that is the greatest indicator of what type of person she truly was.
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  #125  
Old 12-06-2007, 07:22 PM
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Well she wasn't the only one who embarassed the country. And you are right there is nothing that can justify her actions. Why is all the attention on Diana's mistakes Fergie made her own mistakes too.
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  #126  
Old 12-06-2007, 07:28 PM
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I disagree Sirhon, Prince Charles loved Diana, but he wasn't IN LOVE with her which is another thing all together. The only woman he was IN LOVE with was Camilla.
Both women, unfortunately, were train wrecks waiting to happen.
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  #127  
Old 12-06-2007, 07:42 PM
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I disagree Sirhon, Prince Charles loved Diana, but he wasn't IN LOVE with her which is another thing all together. The only woman he was IN LOVE with was Camilla.
Both women, unfortunately, were train wrecks waiting to happen.
Your right, but he didn't love Diana the way she loved him. I should've stated that in my comment. :)
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  #128  
Old 12-06-2007, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
Almost everyone once in their lives have been vindictive, vengeful, petty, angry, sad, jealous and happy.
Everybody may be vindictive once or twice in their lives, but the problem I have with Diana is that she was vindictive, petty and vengeful several times all through her life and with many many people.

As a child she stuck pins in her stepmother's chair and then the way she spoke about her sister slobbering all over Prince Charles when they dated wasn't a nice way to talk about your sister. She concocted a fake fall when she was pregnant with William at age 21 and played games against Sophie Wessex of all people trying to make her feel as uncomfortable as possible during every visit when the women were in their thirties. She was incredibly vicious against Sarah even before Sarah released the story about Diana giving her fungus. Then only a year before her death, she enthusiastically participated in a nasty rumour against the nanny Tiggy-Legg-Burke that Tiggy was pregnant with Charles' child and totally humiliated Tiggy at a Christmas party the winter before she died. So with Diana there was a pattern of vindictiveness throughout her entire life that lasted from childhood to close up to her death. So the range of people that Diana was vindictive towards and the span of time over which Diana's vindictive acts took place literally boggles the mind. I cannot understand how someone can be that consistently vindictive with different people over the whole span of their lifetime. Oh and I forgot that she apparently bragged that she pushed her stepmother down the stairs when she was a mother of two growing boys and her stepmother was an old woman.

I know everyone has their faults but some faults are easier to live with than others. With the way that Sarah and Andrew got back together as friends leads me to believe that Sarah did not intentionally have an affair with the sole purpose of hurting Andrew. She did of course hurt Andrew very much but there's a difference in my mind to the degree of wrongness when you intentionally try to screw someone over and you do it to different people at different times of your life which is what Diana did. If I knew that about someone before I met them, they would not be my friend. Life is too precious and short to allow into it someone who is continually a schemer and a plotter.

There are enough people in the world that are not vindictive to the same extent that Diana was. Sarah is careless, embarassing but that to me is an easier sin to live with.
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  #129  
Old 12-06-2007, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
Well she wasn't the only one who embarassed the country. And you are right there is nothing that can justify her actions. Why is all the attention on Diana's mistakes Fergie made her own mistakes
too.

No one is saying Sarah didn't make her own mistakes...in the last few responses alone she has been called, stupid, naive, opportunistic and selfish. And I called her on bringing her children along on holiday with her loser boyfriends.

I don't think any of us are trying to keep a scorecard over who was the biggest screw-up here...we are analysing the behavior of both women bit by bit and trying to understand why they made the choices that they both made.

One was NOT better than the other, I think everyone agrees to that.
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  #130  
Old 12-06-2007, 07:57 PM
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Everybody may be vindictive once or twice in their lives, but the problem I have with Diana is that she was vindictive, petty and vengeful several times all through her life and with many many people. .
Let's not forget inviting her assistant Victoria Mendham along on holiday in the Caribbean and then later on presenting her with half the bill...knowing that this medium wage young woman could not possibly afford it! She then sacked the girl when Prince Charles paid her half!

She also tried to persuade a friend who was visiting her at KP one day to steal one of Princess Michael's Siamese kittens that was sitting outside on the window ledge, knowing that all of the Princess's prized cats had been fitted with a microchip and anyone who took them would be arrested on the spot!(Both these incidents are documented in at least three of the MANY biographies I have read on the late Princess of Wales)

I don't know. I have to agree with you that that type of vindictive pattern is indicative of some really truly deep rooted problems. Her marriage really stood a chance, now that I think of it.
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  #131  
Old 12-06-2007, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
Oh and I forgot that she apparently bragged that she pushed her stepmother down the stairs when she was a mother of two growing boys and her stepmother was an old woman.
To me this was one of the most upsetting things to learn about Diana. The idea of her physically trying to hurt someone like that was really upsetting to me. I loved Diana but she really was a troubled woman.
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  #132  
Old 12-06-2007, 08:15 PM
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Everybody may be vindictive once or twice in their lives, but the problem I have with Diana is that she was vindictive, petty and vengeful several times all through her life and with many many people. .
Your very right Ysbel, the Princess of Wales was a very complex and troubled woman. I like her very much but I sometimes don't understand her.
Alot of the things she did there is no excuse for, pushing her step-mother down the stairs was very wrong. And I'm pleased that Raine found it in her heart to forgive her. But there was also a different side to Diana. At times she was very loving and caring. There were basically 2 sides of her.

I hope some posters don't think that I turn a blind eye towards Diana's mistakes which is not true. I believe that Diana had alot of emotional problems in her life and she did things that are just inexcusible. But she wasn't a person who was hell bent on making people in her life suffer. She had many good qualities. I choose to see both the positive and negative aspects of her life.
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  #133  
Old 12-06-2007, 09:45 PM
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I think Diana had a habit of creating misery when she was unhappy. She also had a mean streak that she had not mastered. I don't think there was any possibility to mend the friendship between Fergie and Diana at the time of her death. Diana wasn't ready to make the effort and you can't force change on the unwilling.

Sarah had her share of self destructive behavior as well, but she faced up to her difficulties when she hit rock bottom and came out of it all with something to be proud of. I like that she paid her bills and she is still friendly with her ex. There does not seem to be any festering emotional baggage between Sarah and Andrew. The mistakes she made when she was younger will always haunt her, but she has her own life now and it looks like her daughters are turning out well.
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  #134  
Old 12-07-2007, 04:25 AM
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You read my mind about Sarah and her mother...I could NEVER figure out how Sarah just brushed aside her Mom's cruelty and neglect. If anyone had a right to be bitter and hold a grudge it was Sarah. I think she has gone through therapy and is only recently admitting the truth about her relationship with Susan Barrantes, and how it affected her self image and some of the choices she made later on.
Sarah has talked about breaking the cycle with her own daughters and giving them a better self-image then she was given I do think she has worked through alot of it .I do give her alot of credit for making the changes and going in a positve direction.
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  #135  
Old 12-07-2007, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
Well she wasn't the only one who embarassed the country. And you are right there is nothing that can justify her actions. Why is all the attention on Diana's mistakes Fergie made her own mistakes too.
The concentration is on Diana as her mistakes were cruel and vindictive, Sarah's weren't. To this day Sarah, despite knowing what Diana did to her, never says anything negative about Diana. She never betrayed her confidence by leaking information to the press and she knew numerous embarrassing details about Diana.
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  #136  
Old 12-07-2007, 07:40 AM
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The furor over the Morton book took place during the summer of 1992. It got so intense that some people were afraid the Princess would have a breakdown. The Squidy tapes were made on New Year's Eve 1989 but didn't come to light until-I think-the late summer or early Fall of 1992.. Sarah and Andrew announced their separation in March 1992. Sarah said the plan was for both she and Diana to leave the Royal Family at the same time, but after Sarah made her announcement Diana sort of chickened out.

It was at the end of 1992 or the beginning of 1993 that the toe-sucking thing hit the press, but WHEN Sarah made her foolish blunder I am not sure. The toe sucking thing hit the Press at the same time that Britain and the world were still reeling from the fallout over the Morton book and the publication of the Squidgy tapes so it seems perfect plausible that Diana was behind the leak, it was exactly the sort of self-preservation manoever that she excelled at, IMO.

The thing that shocked and disgusted me about the toe sucking thing was that Sarah's then toddler daughters were present. There was a period of time when I was really, really disgusted with her for that.
Sarah and Andrew's separation was leaked to the press ( by Diana as confirmed by Andrew Morton) in March 1992, the official announcement was due in April after Eugenie's 2nd birthday. As it turned out the weekend after the announcement was Eugenie's birthday which Sarah and Andrew hosted together at Sunnyinghill Park.

The Andrew Morton book came out in June 1992. Sarah had moved out of Sunnyinghill Park and was living in a rented house with Beatrice and Eugenie.

Early August 1992, the toe sucking pictures of Sarah were published when she was up at Balmoral as a guest of the Queen.

A week or so later ( so still August 1992) Sarah was pushed off the front pages of the tabloids with the 'Squiggy gate' tapes.

More than likely Diana alerted the media as the where Sarah was holidaying with the new man in her life, at the time Sarah was legally separated from Andrew and they were living apart. Setting the press after Sarah did mean that some of the heat was off Diana, especially as she repeatedly lied when asked if she had anything to do with the Morton book. Apparently Sarah thinks that it was Diana who tipped off the media as the only person beside her police protection officer who knew where she was going was Diana. Sarah had taken the precaution of an isolated villa and they had flown down in a private plane to a private airfield.
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  #137  
Old 12-07-2007, 10:28 AM
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While I am no cheering fan of Sarah, in many ways I admire her. She is enthusiastic, owns up to her mistakes, and treats her daughters with true love and respect --I don't like how Sarah dresses, but that is another matter. Sarah also created a new identity for herself after her divorce and she dug herself out of debt AND managed to remain friends with Andrew. I cannot help but admire her actions.
Here is how I think of them, feel free to disagree. Everyone think back to your school days and how there was always one girl who was pretty, spoiled, popular, and very spiteful or mean because she knew she could get away with it. Then, think about the girl who may have been no raving beauty, but who everyone just really liked because she was so nice and genuine, a true friend. We've all known people like that, especially when we were younger and in the midst of those wretched teen years. That is one way I regard them and their differences.
I had forgotten about Victoria on holiday with Diana, and how Diana treated her. Really--you don't invite someone somewhere and then present a bill! That is just bad manners--but then again, we're talking about a lady who pushed people down the stairs, packed her clothes up in black trash bags and threw her out of the house--OH, yes, one of Diana's nanny's became engaged and Diana stole the ring and chucked it down the drain-and she used to just treat everyone terribly who she thought took her father's attention away from her; this is the same way she reacted about Charles. I think she was troubled and never really grew out of those impulsive, childish ways of behavior.
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  #138  
Old 12-07-2007, 11:02 AM
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Yes, but then Sarah had the time to learn from her mistakes as a Royal and was able to change her behaviour. With Diana, I don't know. There have been written so many books about her but most of them rely on the impressions of other people so I tend to discard these. The Morton-book still has a kind of innocense about it, as if a hurt and probably depressed person is telling her side of the story because she wants to be heard and cannot go public with her story. I'm convinced that Diana did not lie overly much in the Morton-book, she just painted her side of the story prettily in pink.

But from 1992 she experienced a very openly hostile world surrounding her and with a psychological structure like Diana's with her past and her experiences as idolized public persona, it must have been a reason why she became more vindicative. But with all the understanding I can muster, I still think she had become a person who was not really nice to begin with and became even more egotistic and careless about others who surrounded her. While she on the other hand delighted in charming and even bewitching the foreigners she met. Because that cost her nothing but in return she got the public attention she craved and the treatment she was used to.

For me, the Panorama-interview was the last straw. That make-up! That look! And the way she said "There were three in my marriage and it got a bit crowded" when she had had her loves just as well and cuckolded Charles to an extend that people surrounding them believed that Harry was not his son. She had crossed her personal rubicon then and decided to become a vicious person instead of accepting that life is what you make it and you are not what life makes you.

As for Dia´na and Sarah and the fungus-stuff: so what - I had the same problem when I borrowed my mother's shoes once and it taught me to buy my own shoes or to take care I had suitable shoes with me while travelling.
But if Diana had really been a nice person, she would have taken Sarah to task but then laughed and said: "Any day a new story about me to hit the papers, huh?" Because it's laughable, really, it is. People like Diana who count swimming as one of their favorite sports are always in danger of getting fungus - the desinfectants used in pool areas need to stay on dry feet for more than 15 minutesd in order to work, so I was told by a doctor... Impossible in reality. No need to use this as reasoning for an everlasting enmity.
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  #139  
Old 12-07-2007, 12:10 PM
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Yes, but then Sarah had the time to learn from her mistakes as a Royal and was able to change her behaviour.
I agree with all of the above Jo. Very well written.

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For me, the Panorama-interview was the last straw. That make-up! That look! And the way she said "There were three in my marriage and it got a bit crowded" when she had had her loves just as well and cuckolded Charles to an extend that people surrounding them believed that Harry was not his son. She had crossed her personal rubicon then and decided to become a vicious person instead of accepting that life is what you make it and you are not what life makes you.
I my opinion she wanted out of the BRF in 1995 and the Panorama was her way of doing that. She was very desperate to be divorced and maybe married to someone else. I don't think Diana wanted to live just separated and she probably felt her biological clock ticking and just wanted out. At the time of the interview felt very sorry for her.

Also, getting back to topic-I feel Diana ever wanted Fergie back into her life. Diana's and Fergie's relationship was built on competition and need and not true friendship.
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  #140  
Old 12-08-2007, 12:45 AM
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For the most part, I like how Sarah has matured. Well, except for the fashion issues. She and Andrew are still friendly and have not put their children in the middle of their issues. That's a Big Deal to me.
I sometimes wonder how Diana would have matured after she decided to be her own person. I don't think that would have happened until at least age 45 the way she was going. I also think that she and Sarah would not have the same relationship, as I think that Sarah would not have been able to trust her again and would have made a point of avoiding her, which would have driven Diana to distraction.
Just my theory
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