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  #101  
Old 12-05-2007, 03:36 PM
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I have to say that the more I've read about Diana, I find her to be a troubled, somewhat vindictive, and a passive aggressive person. Honestly, if she was upset with someone, she just pushed that someone out of her life; and that is a very childish way to behave. Yes, Fergie shouldn't have been getting her toes sucked (I hate just typing it out, ugguuug), but Diana, who was so miserable in her own life, should not have resented Fergie a little happiness/fun to such an extent that she leaked information. Again, very sad.
Something else that annoys me was Sarah's constantly being everywhere talking about Diana, how she loved her, thinks about her everyday, etc.....once again, Fergie latches onto someone's coattails--even though they're dead. Personally, the Royal Family was better off without either of them in the immediate picture. Neither knew how to behave.
Tina Brown theorizes that the reason Diana leaked the info about Sarah was because she was desperate...it was during the time of the scandal about the Andrew Morton book and there were rumors that Diana had cooperated with him, which she vehemently denied at the time but which turned out to be true. Also there were rumors of more incriminating tapes like the Squidgy tapes, so Diana panicked and alerted the press to what Sarah was up to instead. It was a survival thing more than an act of vindictiveness...not that I am excusing Diana because it was an utterly unforgiveable thing to do.

I guess I can understand Diana's motivation for some of the stupid and self destructive behavior she engaged in...but Sarah? no. She had a husband who loved her, even if he wasn't as supportive as he could have been. She had the support of the Queen. She was older, more sophisticated and she had been around the block. For her to carry on with a couple of losers like Steve Wyatt and John Bryan was just mind bogglingly dumb.
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  #102  
Old 12-05-2007, 08:03 PM
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Tina Brown theorizes that the reason Diana leaked the info about Sarah was because she was desperate...it was during the time of the scandal about the Andrew Morton book and there were rumors that Diana had cooperated with him, which she vehemently denied at the time but which turned out to be true. Also there were rumors of more incriminating tapes like the Squidgy tapes, so Diana panicked and alerted the press to what Sarah was up to instead. It was a survival thing more than an act of vindictiveness...not that I am excusing Diana because it was an utterly unforgiveable thing to do.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound like what a true friend would do to another friend. . . .
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  #103  
Old 12-05-2007, 09:05 PM
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I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound like what a true friend would do to another friend. . . .

Oh, I know and I agree. But this is Diana we are talking about and she was one messed up lady.

God rest her soul in peace....
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  #104  
Old 12-05-2007, 09:46 PM
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I completely agree about Diana's young age having a lot to do with how her personality formed. She was 19 when she married into the Royal Family--she hadn't really been out there, living life and finding herself, and then suddenly she had to conform to someone else's image of what she was to become. I do not doubt she was frustratated and felt she had few she could trust; but, she really was selfish for throwing Sarah to the wolves like that--
of course, I have shed no tears for Sarah, either. She was older, more mature, and had a husband who truly loved (and probably loves her still)--and she wasn't happy because she is a selfish person, too (look at how she parades her children around to get extra publicity for herself)--honestly, I said it once, I'll say it again, the Royal Family is much better without them in it.
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  #105  
Old 12-05-2007, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaDreamin View Post
Oh, I know and I agree. But this is Diana we are talking about and she was one messed up lady.
God rest her soul in peace....
Aren't we all messed up in some way or another no one is perfect.
But I don't beleive this rumour there of course is no evidence that supports it.

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I'll say it again, the Royal Family is much better without them in it.
And the Princess was much better off without them.
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  #106  
Old 12-06-2007, 01:27 AM
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Diana's actions were shaped by the choices she made. She married at age 20 to a man she thought would be married to her forever I'm sure security figured into the decision, as well as the urge to grab the 'catch of the century'. I don't think that anyone expected how she would become an iconic figure whose picture could command very high prices. I remember People magazine referring to her as 'The Franchise". Diana's basic needs did not mesh with what Charles could supply in the way of a partnership. He did try at the beginning, but it seems a lot got lost in the translation.
Charles seems to want loyalty, honesty, and a quiet appreciation of the basics of life. Diana needed emotional support, a lively social life, many friends and a lot of variety in her life. These two could have been best friends if they saw each other a few times a year and didn't have to live together. Neither was suited to supply what the other needed in a long term marriage. I don't think Diana had it in her to be straight forward. She was very clever and had a good sense for the emotional impact she could make. I would not put it past her to alert the press to Fergie's tryst with Bryan, she certainly leaked the story that Sarah and Andrew were to divorce. She also had a hard time keeping staff. This has to be balanced against her incredible compassion for those who were suffering and in need. She did a great deal of good for many causes. I would have liked to see her partnered with someone who could give her what she needed, and then to see what she evolved into over the years.
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  #107  
Old 12-06-2007, 01:38 AM
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she certainly leaked the story that Sarah and Andrew were to divorce
Was this statement made in the Tina Brown book?
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  #108  
Old 12-06-2007, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
Was this statement made in the Tina Brown book?
After Diana's death, Andrew Morton confirmed that it was Diana who tipped him off as to Andrew and Sarah separating. Sarah in her book had thought it was the Buckingham Palace courtiers , the 'grey men', turned out it was Diana.

Diana had a history of cutting people out of her life, after being supportive of Carolyn Bartholenwe (sp?) Carolyn too fell out of favour and she was cut off. James Colthurst who had been friends with Diana since they were teenagers and who Diana entrusted the tapes that she recorded for the Morton book fell out of favour by the mid '90s and he too was cut off. Diana didn't maintain contact with any of the women whom she shared a flat with prior to her marriage, Carolyn as I've already stated fell out of favour by the mid '90s the others she lost contact with earlier.
Sarah had been a friend since their teenage years, she was invited to Diana
's wedding and also was the only non-family member to attend Diana's 21st dinner celebration.

Diana had a high turnover of staff, Sarah had the same people work for her during her royal years, there was no turn over of staff, she was much easier to work for.

As much as she was loved by the public, people who actually met the real person, and not the public persona, saw the flawed character that she was, and a really major flaw was her inability to maintain any kind of long term relationships. Even the 2 women who were friends with Diana around the time of her death (Rosa Monkton and Lucia ) had not been friends with her for years. That last summer of her life Diana didn't actually have anywhere else to go for her holidays ( having cut off so many people) that al Fayed's offer was a solution to an otherwise lonely summer months. Had she other friends she wouldn't have taken up al Fayed's holiday offer.
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  #109  
Old 12-06-2007, 08:16 AM
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I agree that Diana was much better off without the Royal Family, but there is a difference between them being better off without her and her being better off without them. The Royal Family dedicates their life to service, and in truth, Diana truly revitalize the Royal Family and made it approachable; she gave it something it did not have. I think we can all agree with that that, and to not agree is not seeing the whole picture. But, she was not able to conform to the art of discretion and in constantly talking to people, and getting rid of her staff, and trying to undermine the Royal Family and Charles (she did say that Charles should not be King) she became a liability to the Royal Family. There are things you do and do not do; airing your dirty laundry for the world is a no-no. She did it. She also had a low tolerance for people and would cut them out of her life. Frankly, Sarah is a much kinder person than I would have been about Diana leaking details like that. I don't think Sarah ever did that to Diana; it was for selfish reasons as well that Diana behaved that way.
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  #110  
Old 12-06-2007, 09:54 AM
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I think both Sarah and Diana were messed up. While I can feel sorry for Sarah, I cannot find it in me to find any sympathy for Diana. Diana was simply too vindictive and she seemed to know how to hurt people really badly if she wanted to. Diana also seemed to have no problem hurting people who had never done her any wrong. So her youth and inexperience for me is no excuse for deliberating hurting someone like that. I refuse to spend one minute with those type of people no matter what their reasons for being that vindictive.

Sarah never showed that vindictive streak; so I find her easier to forgive. She seemed dumb, gauche, naive but to me that is a lesser fault than the pure vindictiveness that Diana showed time and time again. So I could hang around Sarah occasionally although her gaucheness would annoy me after awhile. If Diana were alive, I wouldn't give her the time of day at all.
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  #111  
Old 12-06-2007, 09:54 AM
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I always thought the way Diana talked about Fergie in the "Squidgytapes" was neither friendly nor nice. To me it has sounded as if Diana did not consider Fergie to be her friend but a family member who might be useful but one she has to be very careful with.

Was the toe-sucking incident before or after the tapes were published?
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  #112  
Old 12-06-2007, 09:57 AM
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I always thought the way Diana talked about Fergie in the "Squidgytapes" was neither friendly nor nice. To me it has sounded as if Diana did not consider Fergie to be her friend but a family member who might be useful but one she has to be very careful with.

Was the toe-sucking incident before or after the tapes were published?
The tapes of Diana's conversation with James Gilbey were recorded in 1989 before the toe sucking incident was made public and before Sarah released her book about Diana's shoes giving her fungus. I agree with you; Diana's words were not something I would expect a friend to say about me behind my back and she didn't have the excuse of being hurt by anything Sarah had done.
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  #113  
Old 12-06-2007, 10:09 AM
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The tapes of Diana's conversation with James Gilbey were recorded in 1989 before the toe sucking incident was made public and before Sarah released her book about Diana's shoes giving her fungus. I agree with you; Diana's words were not something I would expect a friend to say about me behind my back and she didn't have the excuse of being hurt by anything Sarah had done.
I often wondered how Diana could have known about the open way Sarah would conduct her affair with this "financial advisor". She was, after all, the wife of Andrew's brother.

But then I read somewhere that Sarah took her girls along to that holiday and maybe Beatrice (who was then 3 or 4 years old) told her aunt Di (who later opened her letters even when she did not read what Sarah would write to her) like little kids do when talking on the phone.

Maybe someone could help me with a chronology of the events? When was the toe-sucking incident? Were Sarah and Andrew already separated then?
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  #114  
Old 12-06-2007, 12:55 PM
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The furor over the Morton book took place during the summer of 1992. It got so intense that some people were afraid the Princess would have a breakdown. The Squidy tapes were made on New Year's Eve 1989 but didn't come to light until-I think-the late summer or early Fall of 1992.. Sarah and Andrew announced their separation in March 1992. Sarah said the plan was for both she and Diana to leave the Royal Family at the same time, but after Sarah made her announcement Diana sort of chickened out.

It was at the end of 1992 or the beginning of 1993 that the toe-sucking thing hit the press, but WHEN Sarah made her foolish blunder I am not sure. The toe sucking thing hit the Press at the same time that Britain and the world were still reeling from the fallout over the Morton book and the publication of the Squidgy tapes so it seems perfect plausible that Diana was behind the leak, it was exactly the sort of self-preservation manoever that she excelled at, IMO.

The thing that shocked and disgusted me about the toe sucking thing was that Sarah's then toddler daughters were present. There was a period of time when I was really, really disgusted with her for that.
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  #115  
Old 12-06-2007, 01:03 PM
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Diana's actions were shaped by the choices she made. She married at age 20 to a man she thought would be married to her forever I'm sure security figured into the decision, as well as the urge to grab the 'catch of the century'. I don't think that anyone expected how she would become an iconic figure whose picture could command very high prices. I remember People magazine referring to her as 'The Franchise". Diana's basic needs did not mesh with what Charles could supply in the way of a partnership. He did try at the beginning, but it seems a lot got lost in the translation.
Charles seems to want loyalty, honesty, and a quiet appreciation of the basics of life. Diana needed emotional support, a lively social life, many friends and a lot of variety in her life. These two could have been best friends if they saw each other a few times a year and didn't have to live together. Neither was suited to supply what the other needed in a long term marriage. I don't think Diana had it in her to be straight forward. She was very clever and had a good sense for the emotional impact she could make. I would not put it past her to alert the press to Fergie's tryst with Bryan, she certainly leaked the story that Sarah and Andrew were to divorce. She also had a hard time keeping staff. This has to be balanced against her incredible compassion for those who were suffering and in need. She did a great deal of good for many causes. I would have liked to see her partnered with someone who could give her what she needed, and then to see what she evolved into over the years.

This is one of the best posts about the late Princess that I have read, and I couldn't agree more. There are several people who believe that Diana went to her grave still loving Charles and as painful as it is I believe it too. A few weeks before her death someone visited her at Kensington Palace and she was playing classical music, and she got a dreamy look in her eyes and said "Charles loves this song" or something like that. I also believe that given time
the two of them would have found sort of peace with one another and been best friends. Before her death was confirmed on the night of the accident Prince Charles told one of his secretaries that he would go to France and bring Diana home and take care of her, nurse her back to health.

That made me cry when I read it. ..I think to this day that if they had met one another later in life they would have had a real chance of a beautiful relationship together.
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  #116  
Old 12-06-2007, 01:18 PM
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I think both Sarah and Diana were messed up. While I can feel sorry for Sarah, I cannot find it in me to find any sympathy for Diana. Diana was simply too vindictive and she seemed to know how to hurt people really badly if she wanted to. Diana also seemed to have no problem hurting people who had never done her any wrong. So her youth and inexperience for me is no excuse for deliberating hurting someone like that. I refuse to spend one minute with those type of people no matter what their reasons for being that vindictive.

Sarah never showed that vindictive streak; so I find her easier to forgive. She seemed dumb, gauche, naive but to me that is a lesser fault than the pure vindictiveness that Diana showed time and time again. So I could hang around Sarah occasionally although her gaucheness would annoy me after awhile. If Diana were alive, I wouldn't give her the time of day at all.
Ysabel you are on target but don't you think that if Diana had survived the accident she would have mended her life and become a changed person? I suppose we can play the "what if" game forever, can't we?

You are right that Sarah seems to have been a more loyal friend and easier person to be around. People seem to forget also that Sarah had a childhood that was as fraught as Diana's. Her parents had a turbulent unhappy marriage. Sarah's mother Susan sounds like a real piece of work. Sarah has recently given interviews where she disclosed that her mother warned her to never look in the mirroir because she was so homely..and this was when the girl was still a CHILD!! What kind of a woman says that to her daughter? She swept out of her kids life to take up with her Argentine lover on the other side of the world without missing a stroke. At least Frances Shand Kydd FOUGHT for her children!

But back to Diana, she had many beautiful qualities that I admired. I could never be the kind of person who goes into filthy slums with all kinds of horrible smells and do the kind of work she was willing to do. But the unpleasant fact remains is that with the exception of her children, she was quite unkind to the people who were closest to her, her own family and friends.
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  #117  
Old 12-06-2007, 02:17 PM
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They were both a little messed up but from what we know of their past, there are reasons to that and I don't think the RF could have done anything for them. They could have prepared them when they entered the royal circle like for Kate Middleton. I'm not saying they didn't try, just that it could have helped them. Unlike ysbel, I'm tend to have more sympathy for Diana than for Sarah because I still believe Andrew loved her very much and her divorce was done for bad reasons. Again, who am I to judge ? Anyway, I don't think a human being is vindictive or unkind from nature, there's always a reason to reactions and behaviour.
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  #118  
Old 12-06-2007, 02:50 PM
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Sarah seemed to have alot more denile about what she went through in her childhood then Diana did.I can remember a number of interviews early on in her public life when she just blew off any pain of her mother leaving her and said she was glad her mother found happiness,I found that just too incrediable to believe but I think that was just Sarah's way be jolly and cheerful whether your happy or not.Diana never seemed to shy away from her troubles almost to the point she may have nursed them too much.I agree Sarah was likely the easier person to be around and was not one to hold grudges but she was so brazen and lacked completely any sound judgement in the men she was covorting with,granted Diana had those moments too but her marriage was far colder and she was not as accepted by the royal family as Sarah was.I think both marriages were doomed and I do think if Diana had know Charles better or had been a bit older she would be far less inclined to marry him.Sarah I don't know she and Andrew wer friends so maybe they had a better chance but I still think there were too many barriers for them to overcome not the least of which was how little they saw of each other due to his navy career.
I also tend to think Diana might well have mended fences with Sarah and her mother.I think she was in a bad place at the time spending time with the Fayeds whom William disapproved of who I think were truely not good enough for her and she lacked anyone other then William to tell her straight out who bad they made her look although I'm sure he said it in a different way those are my words.I don't think she planned to stay with Dodi beyond that vacation who seemed to be doing this only because it's what his father wanted it just showed how isolated she was to be with them instead of peopl who really cared about her.I think she needed to listen to things she didn't want tohear and that only comes from people who have know you long enough and sadly she didn't have contact with most of those people at the time of her death.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:01 PM
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You read my mind about Sarah and her mother...I could NEVER figure out how Sarah just brushed aside her Mom's cruelty and neglect. If anyone had a right to be bitter and hold a grudge it was Sarah. I think she has gone through therapy and is only recently admitting the truth about her relationship with Susan Barrantes, and how it affected her self image and some of the choices she made later on.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:15 PM
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They were both a little messed up but from what we know of their past, there are reasons to that and I don't think the RF could have done anything for them. They could have prepared them when they entered the royal circle like for Kate Middleton. I'm not saying they didn't try, just that it could have helped them. Unlike ysbel, I'm tend to have more sympathy for Diana than for Sarah because I still believe Andrew loved her very much and her divorce was done for bad reasons. Again, who am I to judge ? Anyway, I don't think a human being is vindictive or unkind from nature, there's always a reason to reactions and behaviour.
I completly agree with your post. I have more sympathy for Diana then Fergie. Andrew loved and cared about her and she threw his love in his face by having her affairs. Charles didn't love Diana despite that she loved him.
Diana did alot things in her life that she probably wasn't proud of. There is not one poster on this forum that can say that they did everything perfect in their lives. Almost everyone once in their lives have been vindictive, vengeful, petty, angry, sad, jealous and happy. Diana and Sarah were/are human and made alot of mistakes but also alot of good choices that helped many people.
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