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  #801  
Old 03-06-2008, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
If anything happens to William, it will matter to a great many in the UK.
But even if something happened to William, who could actually do something? Okay Charles and Harry could easily enough decide on a paternity-test but if they don't, could eg Andrew ask for one?

Has there been a similar case in the nobility for example?

As an aside: the technique of paternity tests is so advanced that you can do the collecting of the samples yourself at home and then send the samples in - results are sent back to a lawyer if wished or can be picked up anonymously... So it's not that these test cannot be handled discreetly, if chosen. I bet Charles has some friends and aides who would keep quiet about anything, so it could easily be arranged, I guess.

I checked a bit about cases like that in the nobility and found three cases so far - The Banbury Claim, the Aylesbury Case and the Poulett Case. In all three cases a son was declared illegitimate by the highest jurisdictional authorities, even though he was born to the wife during the marriage. Interesting is the Banbury claim - even though the descendants of the disputed legitime heir to the title were high in Royal favour and were knighted or received peerages, they were not reinstalled into the title itself: From Wiki:

The Earl of Banbury's wife, who was nearly forty years her husband's junior, was the mother of two sons, Edward (16271645) and Nicholas (16311674), whose paternity has given rise to much dispute. Neither is mentioned in the earl's will, but in 1641 the law courts decided that Edward was Earl of Banbury, and when he was killed in June 1645 his brother Nicholas took the title. In the Convention Parliament of 1660 some objection was taken to the earl sitting in the House of Lords, and in 1661 he was not summoned to parliament; he had not succeeded in obtaining his writ of summons when he died on 14 March 1674. Nicholas's son Charles (16621740), the 4th earl, had not been summoned to parliament when in 1692 he killed Captain Philip Lawson in a duel. This raised the question of his rank in a new form. Was he, or was he not, entitled to trial by the peers? The House of Lords declared that he was not a peer and therefore not so entitled, but the Court of King's Bench released him from his imprisonment on the ground that he was the Earl of Banbury and not Charles Knollys, a commoner. Nevertheless, the House of Lords refused to move from its position, and Knollys had not received a writ of summons when he died in April 1740. His son Charles (17031771), vicar of Burford, Oxfordshire, and his grandsons, William (17261776) and Thomas Woods (17271793), were successively titular Earls of Banbury, but they took no steps to prove their title.
However, in 1806, Thomas Woods's son William (17631834), who attained the rank of general in the British army, asked for a writ of summons as Earl of Banbury, but in 1813 the House of Lords decided against the claim. Several peers, including the great Lord Erskine, protested against this decision, but General Knollys himself accepted it and ceased to call himself Earl of Banbury. He died in Paris on 20 March 1834. His eldest son, Sir William Thomas Knollys (17971883), entered the army and served with the Guards during the Peninsular War. Remaining in the army after the conclusion of the peace of 1815 he won a good reputation and rose high in his profession. From 1855 to 1860 he was in charge of the military camp at Aldershot, then in its infancy, and in 1861 he was made president of the council of military education. From 1862 to 1877 he was comptroller of the household of the Prince of Wales, afterwards King Edward VII. From 1877 until his death on 23 June 1883, he was Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod; he was also a privy councillor and colonel of the Scots Guards. His son Francis Knollys, 1st Viscount Knollys (b. 1837), private secretary to Edward VII and George V, was created Baron Knollys in 1902 and Viscount Knollys in 1911; another son, Sir Henry Knollys (b. 1840), became private secretary to King Edward's daughter Maud, Queen of Norway. Knollys's daughter, Charlotte, became the Private Secretary and close friend to the Princess of Wales, later Queen Alexandra. She died unmarried in 1930.

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In both the Aylesbury Case and the Poulett Case the courts did not believe a son to be fathered by the holder of the respective title, so the title passed into another branch of the family. The decision were based in the Common Law about legitimacy and the relative who thought had the senior right to the title had the right to question the legitimacy. As Common Law applies to the members of the RF as well (or at least I believe it does, except where special laws exist), Andrew could well act if something happened to William before he is married and father of a child.

Equally interesting the Moynihan-case, who was decided on the basis of DNa-testings in 1997. The third Lord Moynihan had a son from his fourth marriage, but the child was conceived through IVF and it could be proved that he was not the father. He fathered a son in his fifth marriage, though, but because the fourth marriage had not legally been disolved, this son was declared illegitimate as he was born to a bigamous marriage. Thus the brother of the third Lord became the fourth Baron. Interesting legal argumentation.
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  #802  
Old 03-06-2008, 06:11 PM
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with this rumour swirling around for so long now, i would be very surprised if a test hasn't already been done by someone. also, i know this has been asked before but isn't a test done at birth to ensure that the baby is a legitmate heir?
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  #803  
Old 03-06-2008, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Very true. It does matter whenever the monarchy as institution is concerned (eg something happens to William or he doesn't have any offsprings). Furthermore I believe that the supporters of the BRF or the british taxpayers would take some interest in the issue too - a proof of deception from the BRF's side would question their credibility and mean a serious threat to the survival of the institution itself.
I happen to believe that Harry is Charles' biological son, but if he's not, it is an extremely important issue for the institution of the monarchy. If William dies without issue, the public needs to know Harry is in fact Charles' son. Harry can't inherit simply because of touchy-feely modern concepts about "fatherhood" and the fact Charles has always treated him as his son. If Harry is not Charles' son, he can't become King, and I think DNA proof would be required. If he is indeed a Windsor, it would be no big deal. If he's not, it most certainly would be. But I think DNA tests would have already been performed.
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  #804  
Old 03-06-2008, 06:42 PM
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I believe that Harry is Charles' biological son however I would not be surprised if a DNA test has already been carried out.
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  #805  
Old 03-06-2008, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
SNIPPED - But I think DNA tests would have already been performed.
Unless the DNA tests were done recently, there would be no guarantee of accuracy. The tests used in 1984, were not normally DNA, but simple blood tests, (I think I posted the links explaining this technique earlier in the thread).
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  #806  
Old 03-06-2008, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Unless the DNA tests were done recently, there would be no guarantee of accuracy. The tests used in 1984, were not normally DNA, but simple blood tests, (I think I posted the links explaining this technique earlier in the thread).
I meant DNA tests, i.e. recent tests, not blood tests taken at the time of Harry's birth.
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  #807  
Old 03-06-2008, 06:53 PM
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I would actually be surprised if a DNA test had been done. I don't think there's doubt in the family. Even if there was, I think they would avoid the test because tests leave evidence.
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  #808  
Old 03-07-2008, 12:19 AM
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I would actually be surprised if a DNA test had been done. I don't think there's doubt in the family. Even if there was, I think they would avoid the test because tests leave evidence.
There may well be no doubt at all within the family, and even if there is some doubt they may prefer to adopt the wait-and-see approach, on the assumption William will reproduce so the issue of Harry's biological right to be monarch will probably never arise. I actually had in mind that it might be one of the Powers that Be - "dark forces" or security services of some type - that would have had the DNA testing done, rather than the family.
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  #809  
Old 03-07-2008, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
I would actually be surprised if a DNA test had been done. I don't think there's doubt in the family. Even if there was, I think they would avoid the test because tests leave evidence.
The shredder would be working overtime!
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  #810  
Old 03-10-2008, 11:32 AM
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Honestly, I think this is one of the few cases where the truth is much better never investigated. I can't understand how investigating Harry's paternity could be beneficial. I don't know if a discovery that Harry was illegitimate could worsen Diana's reputation or soften Charles' reputation much: people already know she had an affair with Hewitt and those who believe she turned to him only because Charles had already turned to Camilla would continue to believe that, while those who had already lost respect for her wouldn't have any respect to lose. But for the monarchy itself, I think that a discovery that such a prominent royal was illegitimate would be just one more devastating scandal. And for Harry, of course, it would completely ruin his life. Imagine discovering your mom lied to you for years, you aren't biologically related to your only living parent, and your "real dad" could apparently care less about you!

I'm not saying I think Harry is Hewitt's son. I don't. But even if he were, even if he became the first "non-biological" son of a king to inherit the throne, it would be a whole lot safer for the monarchy than some revelation that he was actually the son of someone like Hewitt who many people consider unsavory.
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  #811  
Old 03-10-2008, 11:46 AM
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This must be such a trauma for Prince Harry. The only person he really resembles is Diana's sister, (the one with red hair, I always forget her name.) Harry is the absolute image of her. I do believe he is Charles's son. I can't see Diana being so silly as to take such a risk...
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  #812  
Old 03-10-2008, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rmay286 View Post
But even if he were, even if he became the first "non-biological" son of a king to inherit the throne, it would be a whole lot safer for the monarchy than some revelation that he was actually the son of someone like Hewitt who many people consider unsavory.
If it was proven that he is not Charles' biological son, he couldn't inherit.
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  #813  
Old 03-10-2008, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
If it was proven that he is not Charles' biological son, he couldn't inherit.
Yes, I know. What I meant was, suppose Harry actually isn't Charles' biological son but it's never proven because no one does a DNA test, and he happens to become king. Would the the monarchy be worse off, if not one person but Diana or Hewitt ever knew the difference? Of course not.

On the other hand, if Harry was proven to be illegitimate, it would have huge personal repercussions for him and be a great blow to the monarchy. That's what I meant when I said, in this case, the legal truth can't do any good and has a very slim but real possibility of doing enormous harm.
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  #814  
Old 03-15-2008, 07:25 PM
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I'm not sure if it has been mentioned yet or not in this thread, but Harry was obligated to take a blood test when he joined the army in 2005, and a DNA test was done. I'm unsure of the results, but I doubt that we'll ever know for sure if Harry is not Charles' son, as the family would never want that sort of scandal, even if it were aimed primarilly towards Diana.

(But I know for a fact that Harry believes he is Charles' son, and that he would never call James Hewitt his father even if he were biologically.)
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  #815  
Old 03-15-2008, 07:47 PM
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I hadn't thought of that. DNA testing is routine in the armed forces now to assist in identying casualties. Good point.

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  #816  
Old 03-15-2008, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by randomlyKeira View Post
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned yet or not in this thread, but Harry was obligated to take a blood test when he joined the army in 2005, and a DNA test was done.
A blood test is done at the time of a full medical for illnesses but not for DNA, our government does not keep a DNA database on our service personnel, just criminals. In the same way that US soldiers are allowed to keep samples in a sperm bank, widows here are not allowed to use the sperm from a dead spouse, so there is no option offered.

For a paternity DNA test, they would have to have samples given by Charles.
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  #817  
Old 03-15-2008, 10:57 PM
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So do you belive he was Fathered by the Prince of Wales
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  #818  
Old 03-15-2008, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Royal Fan View Post
So do you belive he was Fathered by the Prince of Wales
yeah, definitely
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  #819  
Old 03-16-2008, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I am sure that many posters would claim impeccable sources.
As I have said the forces take a blood sample at the time of the full medical that every potential trainee undertakes. DNA testing is not done, in this country at this time, due to the costs involved.
And I bet Charles, Harry and their medical staff are much more careful with their patient's information than the UCLA medical center was with Britney Spears' data...
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  #820  
Old 03-16-2008, 10:08 AM
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I can't claim impeccable sources, just my belief that Harry is Charles' son and not Hewitt's. As for the blood test/DNA testing done by the military, I have a cousin who is in the special forces and know his DNA was placed on file with the branch of service he is in. I assumed the same was true for all service men. As it is a foolproof means of identifying casualties it just makes sense. And considering that the US military has been known to spend $400 for a simple hammer the cost of DNA testing shouldn't be much of a problem. But then you know what they say about "ass-u-me"-ing things. My apologies.

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