Charles and Diana

[BritishRoyalist]

I don't see the problem with Charles walking away from a ranting Diana. It honestly seems like a mature reaction. One person is trying to create a drama and the other refuses to participate. Now I will say he shouldn't have walked away from the convo altogether but returned to it when cooler heads prevailed.

Agree. they always say it best to walk away when one needs to cool off before they something they will regret.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

What could Charles have done differently after their marriage broke down? Remained celibate while Diana took lovers? Would that be a reasonable thing to expect of him? He resumed his relationship with the woman to whom he is now very happily married. Fair enough, in my opinion.

I don't think either of them should have broken their marriage vows. Charles is not the spineless wimp that Diana claimed he was, but he should have been stronger in 1986, when the marriage ended. He should have informed his parents and the public that they were unhappy and were separating. It would have been hard, but it would have been the right thing to do.

Diana, too, should have taken steps to end her marriage before she broke her vows. It doesn't matter who cheated first, they were both wrong.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I don't see the problem with Charles walking away from a ranting Diana. It honestly seems like a mature reaction. One person is trying to create a drama and the other refuses to participate. Now I will say he shouldn't have walked away from the convo altogether but returned to it when cooler heads prevailed.

Xenia, I agree about walking away to cool down, but if he simply avoided resolving their problems, that can be very destructive.

We don't know what happened between Charles and Diana. I had always thought that they feel into a cycle where Diana was constantly complaining and criticizing and Charles responded by withdrawing emotionally. However, Dman reminded me that Diana lied a lot (going as far as to blame a child for her nuisance calls to Oliver Hoare's family). It is possible that Charles did try and constructively resolve disagreements and Diana was too hysterical to problem solve.

We will probably never know because Charles doesn't seem to be inclined to talk about it. Just as well.

 

[Dman]

Both Charles & Diana was too hysterical and was pretty stubborn. They didn't know how to stop themselves from embarrassing one another and making things worse. The media and tabloids didn't help matters by picking sides and blowing things out of proportion. It was a mess on both sides not one over the other.

 

[Nico]

Those who are making excusing for Charles's behavior is pretty much in denial. Diana was doing her dirty work too but Charles nearly brought down the monarchy with his very foolish ways in those days

Sorry but your phrase is quite a nonsense. In a way you're quite in denial too,because both of them nerly brought down the Monarchy and Diana's behaviour was as foolish, if not more, than her husband's.
With a good PR, Richard kay, a book and a TV interview, Diana was a able to play the victim and to blame everyone but her about the demise of her marriage. But she was very much responsible, as her husband, of this demise.
I don't see any posters excusing Charles 's behaviour. I see posters trying to put some perspectives to this well known, or apparently so, story. Andrew Mortons's book is not a Bible after all, and it's just perfectly normal to try to find an unbiased view of the facts.
They were not a couple, they were two over sensitive and demanding individuals. They both needed a stronger figure. For that he cheated his wife, that's a fact. He admitted it. Is that great ? Not at all. But at the same time and in the same way she, fair game, cheated him. They could have been stayed married like this for 30 years or more . Maybe, who knows, there was some kind of agreement between them ? I don't believe a second she felt betrayed by her husband. How can you claim exclusivity when you have your own lover waiting at the door? This situation was, is,fairly common in the Aristocraty. We must stop to see the War of Wales through our "petits bourgeois" lenses with some popular moral values. Cheating behind closed doors was fine for the BRF let's face it.
The only problem is that the little private affairs of the Wales were leaked at the beggining of the 90's ( Camillagate and Squidgygate). I do think Diana was utterly terrified that it could damage forever the perfect image she had built with so much effort. As a shy girl, lacking confidence but respected by millions, the simple idea of being seen as a dirty girl surrounded by lovers must have been unbearable. To be a victim was the only escape. So she protected herself with the Mortons' book, telling her so called side of the story, seen as the truth by many. Then things escalated quickly and the situation was soon out of control...
It was the worst match of the 20th century and if these two were not so much childish and influencable the events could have been handled better. See Anne and Mark Phlipps, same situation, even worse because of the illegitimate child : bilateral cheating and leaked letters but they admitted the obvious, there was a quick and discreet divorce and more importantly :they keep their mouth shouted , as a Royal must do.
That's a dirty story i know, it was never a fairytale.

 

[Dman]

Nico, if you bothered to read my comments on this page and several pages back, you will see that I admitted that Diana also cheated and caused a great deal of trouble in her own way. I have made no excuses and denied anything about Diana's behavior at all.

What I have witnessed on this forum is some people here placing a great deal of blame on Diana for the breakdown of her marriage and the chaos around it. Diana cheated, made phone calls and even blamed others for the situation but Charles also cheated, made phone calls and blamed others for the situation. I have seen people make excuse after excuse for Charles and his then mistress and made it seem like what they did was okay or not that bad and made it seem like Diana was the horrible person no matter what and nearly brought down the monarchy all by herself. That's unfair and very one-sided.

I think we should be fair to both and mention both of their mistakes and not bash one person over the other. If I talk about Diana's bad behavior, I will also talk about Charles's. He also nearly brought down the monarchy and caused a great deal of pain to other people. He also threw his parents under the bus for his personal issues.

I find it very tacky to blame Diana for everything and make it seem like Charles's actions weren't that bad or small potatoes compared to Diana's. That's a bunch of nonsense.

I'm being accused of being in denial and talking a bunch on nonsense, all while others on here are trashing Diana and making it seem like everybody else were angles or saints. Give me a break.

 

[vkrish]

Nico, if you bothered to read my comments on this page and several pages back, you will see that I admitted that Diana also cheated and caused a great deal of trouble in her own way. I have made no excuses and denied anything about Diana's behavior at all.

What I have witnessed on this forum is some people here placing a great deal of blame on Diana for the breakdown of her marriage and the chaos around it. Diana cheated, made phone calls and even blamed others for the situation but Charles also cheated, made phone calls and blamed others for the situation. I have seen people make excuse after excuse for Charles and his then mistress and made it seem like what they did was okay or not that bad and made it seem like Diana was the horrible person no matter what and nearly brought down the monarchy all by herself. That's unfair and very one-sided.

I think we should be fair to both and mention both of their mistakes and not bash one person over the other. If I talk about Diana's bad behavior, I will also talk about Charles's. He also nearly brought down the monarchy and caused a great deal of pain to other people. He also threw his parents under the bus for his personal issues.

I find it very tacky to blame Diana for everything and make it seem like Charles's actions weren't that bad or small potatoes compared to Diana's. That's a bunch of nonsense.

I'm being accused of being in denial and talking a bunch on nonsense, all while others on here are trashing Diana and making it seem like everybody else were angles or saints. Give me a break.

Chill, Dman. Charles and Diana are NOT equally bad..
If you are seeing from the "institution of marriage " point of view, both are equally guilty, and there is no question of supporting Charles. But while dealing with the aftermath of the fall-out, definitely Charles didnt stoop anywhere near as low as Diana..
Charles never publicly criticised Diana.
Charles never publicly questioned Diana's various "abilities" (whatever she has, if any)
Charles never helped books, documentaries and interviews giving them scoops of How Diana met her various lovers, what gifts she received from them, what she talked to them..
Like a gentleman (not perfect, obviously) he frankly admitted to adultery on his part and explained when and why he had to cross the line
And above all, he never kept a count of how many are there exactly in that marriage (and Diana should thank him for that..)

 

[Dman]

Chill, Dman. Charles and Diana are NOT equally bad..
Charles never publicly criticised Diana.
Charles never publicly questioned Diana's various "abilities" (whatever she has, if any)
Charles never helped books, documentaries and interviews giving them scoops of How Diana met her various lovers, what gifts she received from them, what she talked to them..
Like a gentleman (not perfect, obviously) he frankly admitted to adultery on his part and explained when and why he had to cross the line
And above all, he never kept a count of how many are there exactly in that marriage (and Diana should thank him for that..)

Charles was just as equally damaging to this marriage and embarrassed the Monarchy (which wasn't perfect in it's self) and caused a great deal of heartache and pain to others. He too made his mistakes and the Camillagate tapes were even worse than Diana's Squidgygate tapes.

Charles also cooperated with a book and admitted on national TV of his adultery. That was embarrassing just as Diana's interview was embarrassing. Charles also had his friends intimidate Diana and some even went on TV to publically criticize her.

Give a break with this one-sided attitude towards Charles & Diana's marriage.

 

[NGalitzine]

Really DMan? Who did Charles make the phone calls to? Was it necessary for the police to be called into investigate the phone call? Who did Charles place the blame on? Did Charles ever try and ruin the reputation of an innocent party, let alone take pleasure in such actions and brag about it?
It is one thing to be an apologist for Diana but could you at least provide some evidence for your counter claims.

 

[Dman]

Really DMan? Who did Charles make the phone calls to? Was it necessary for the police to be called into investigate the phone call? Who did Charles place the blame on? Did Charles ever try and ruin the reputation of an innocent party, let alone take pleasure in such actions and brag about it?
It is one thing to be an apologist for Diana but could you at least provide some evidence for your counter claims.

Charles made many calls to CPB and it helped produce the Camillagate Tapes. Charles threw his parents (The Queen & Duke of Edinburgh) under the bus for the failure of his marriage. He claimed they didn't give him enough love and support as a child and he didn't know how to love and care for his wife.

Charles had his friends to publically put Diana down and made her feel totally insane in private.

For the time I've been on this forum page, I have read nothing about Charles's bad actions and the damage he caused. I have read endless comments about Diana's faults and the damage she caused but little to nothing about Charles's careless actions. Call me crazy but I think that's very much unfair and very much unnecessary.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Really DMan? Who did Charles make the phone calls to? Was it necessary for the police to be called into investigate the phone call? Who did Charles place the blame on? Did Charles ever try and ruin the reputation of an innocent party, let alone take pleasure in such actions and brag about it?
It is one thing to be an apologist for Diana but could you at least provide some evidence for your counter claims.

Trying to reason with some people is a waste of time (especially when they claim that no one on this forum is critical of Charles).

There was an intelligent discussion upthread in which several people acknowledged that both parties were equally responsible for the breakdown of the marriage, but the public war, which deeply hurt William and Harry, was Diana's fault. Some posters will claim a false equivalency between Charles' interview and Diana's, but reasonable people see through that.

Charles never publicly criticized Diana, never asked him friends to criticize Diana, never harassed anyone, never used his sons as cover for his affair, and never betrayed anyone's privacy. He briefly tried to blame his decision to marry on the Queen and Prince Philip, but everyone makes mistakes.

Most importantly, he always kept the door open to Diana. Several people claim the relationship improved in the months before Diana's death, which was due to Charles's outreach. He was an excellent parent who, unlike Diana, always put William and Harry first while they were growing up.

Regarding the actual marriage, Diana suffered from serious mental health issues. It was in no way her fault and it is extremely difficult for someone who suffers from a mental health problem to admit it and get help. However, it is also very difficult for the family members. A high percentage of people who suffer from bulimia are divorced. There are strategies to constructively communicate with someone who suffers from mental illness, but I don't think Charles understood the illness well enough to use them.

Early in the marriage, Charles fired a lot of his staff and cut off many friends, but he resented it. Diana tried to fit into his world, but she did things like taking riding lessons and then having an affair with the instructor, so I don't give her much credit for that.

In my opinion, both parties were equally to blame until about 1988, when Diana started leaking to the media and deliberately upstaging him. The marriage was over when Charles realized that he could not trust her to keep his confidence. They couldn't repair the marriage unless the two of them learned to communicate. But you can't have honest communications if one party is blabbing intimate matters to outsiders.

Both of them were having affairs, but Diana decided she wanted more children as Harry and William went off to boarding school. We can discuss her real reasons for wanting more children, but Charles thought it was a bad idea to bring more children into the marriage and I think that is what set Diana off. The rest is, unfortunately, history.

 

[Ish]

This all was really well put.

Also, Dman, are you seriously comparing phone calls that Charles made to Camilla to the stalker-ish phone calls that Diana made?

 

[BritishRoyalist]

Agree 100%. As I have said before They Both had their faults and both made mistakes and are both 50/50.

 

[Dman]

I had no idea this forum was used to bash Diana and make excuses for Charles until now. This is one sad forum. So go right ahead with the Diana bashing, it's okay.

Don't worry, I'll never participate in this forum page again.

 

[Nico]

I had no idea this forum was used to bash Diana and make excuses for Charles until now. This is one sad forum.

Don't worry, I'll never participate in this forum page again.
__________________

I do think you're taking it too personally.
Its not making excuses for one side or another to say they were BOTH responsible for this fiasco.

 

[NGalitzine]

I had no idea this forum was used to bash Diana and make excuses for Charles until now. This is one sad forum. So go right ahead with the Diana bashing, it's okay.

Don't worry, I'll never participate in this forum page again.

Hmmm, so people did not fall all over themselves to agree with all your statements but instead asked you to provide sources for your claims and the end result is you now decide not to participate. Thats fine, but is does seem rather like the internet equivilent of taking your ball and going home because the other kids on the playground refuse to play by your rules. Thats life.

 

[sarahedwards2]

If Diana did not marry into the royal family, there is no William and Harry. No royal wedding with Kate and no George. The drama of the nineties paved the way for the happy times of today. Kate's uncle didn't declare that she was a virgin like Diana's uncle did because no one cared.No cared that the future king lived with his future queen before marriage.

Why did women who married into the royal family have to be declared virgins before they could marry?

 

[Mermaid1962]

He's supposed to go into the same kind of "gnashes" that George VI went into. Perhaps Camilla has the same ability to calm him down as Queen Elizabeth (later the Queen Mother) had with George VI. That would be really terrifying to someone like Diana. Some have said that she seemed to be afraid of him at times. I have no doubt that he could be really formidable when angry.

I think you are right about Charles walking away. From almost all accounts, he is not a yeller. It is more likely that Diana yelled at Charles in front of the children, not vice versa.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I had no idea this forum was used to bash Diana and make excuses for Charles until now. This is one sad forum. So go right ahead with the Diana bashing, it's okay.

Don't worry, I'll never participate in this forum page again.

If you think this is bashing you should head over to RoyalDish where the MODs do most of the bashing.

Don't worry, all this will disappear when it gets too "rowdy" for our MODs. I never bother to waste me time typing in Charles/Diana/Camilla threads anymore. They all end the same way.

Closed for Moderator Review.

 

[Ish]

Why did women who married into the royal family have to be declared virgins before they could marry?

Diana didn't, not officially at least.

There hasn't been any official requirement that a royal bride be a virgin at her wedding, but it is an old custom that it's expected that women are virgins when they get married. Diana's virginity was never an issue; it was assumed that she was a virgin as she didn't have a history of previous boyfriends who could tell any embarrassing stories. The press, being the press, decided to publish speculative stories, so her uncle publicly announced that she was a virgin (because, you know, these things are always known by ones uncles).

 

[Mermaid1962]

In more recent times, I think it's to make sure there aren't ex-lovers out there who will use their experience for their own profit: whether black-mailing the princess or queen involved or else by selling stories to the media. Female virginity was a big deal for a long time. I remember studying a play from the 16th century in which the virginity of the anti-heroine was an important part of the plot.

Why did women who married into the royal family have to be declared virgins before they could marry?

 

[Lee-Z]

Apparently this history is still to fresh to have a civilized discussion about it, let's try again in 10 years.
.

 

[Nico]

Dman, it has become easy to bash Diana on this and anywhere else, as she can no longer defend herself and her life stopped, so she has no present

But its called History ! Diana is an historical figure who played a major role in the BRF and we MUST be critical about her life and her behaviour. I don't see any bashing at all...

 

[Ish]

But its called History ! Diana is an historical figure who played a major role in the BRF and we MUST be critical about her life and her behaviour. I don't see any bashing at all...

Ah, but see to fault Diana while also faulting Charles is horrible. And to fault Diana without at the same time faulting Charles (even if you freely admit that Charles was at fault), is even worse. And to write a lengthy post in which you hold both accountable for their actions is to expect too much of those who might read it, and c'mon Diana wasn't at fault at all and we should only remember the marriage for the happy years that were really a farce out forward for the public.

 

[Lee-Z]

Maybe this speeds up the 'closed by moderator' proces but i have a feeling that views of P.Diana and P.Charles also differ by country....

 

[Mermaid1962]

I agree with with your sarcastic/ironic comment re Camilla coming to his rescue. People don't seem to remember that when Charles could have married Camilla, she was in love with Andrew Parker-Bowles. She must have known she'd never be acceptable as a Princess of Wales in those days.

Camilla just came by to be kind and rescue him from his miserable state... He knew the score.

However, I think that should have listened to her initial instincts about Charles and Camilla's relationship and not gotten engaged; because she was suspicious of it even before the engagement. She could presently be the 52-year-old wife of some other aristocrat had she not gone ahead with her marriage to Charles.

 

[Nico]

Maybe this speeds up the 'closed by moderator' proces but i have a feeling that views of P.Diana and P.Charles also differ by country....

I agree. I pointed this fact before. Europeans tend to be more critical about the late princess's life. On the contrary some of our US friends seem to be still mesmerized by Diana.
It's interesting...

 

[scooter]

Well Charles may not have used his sons to cover his affair, he certainly used any house any one of his friends or relatives would allow, as clearly delineated in their own words on tape.As we have previously discussed Camilla made regular briefings to the Sun's Stuart Higgins on "Charles' side". As we have previously discussed, Charles spent the night before the first wedding with Camilla, which to me is beyond the pale, and shows such a complete lack of good faith at the wedding in the mooring. Charles had PLENTY of his own baggage brought to the table.

 

[BritishRoyalist]

I don't think there has been much Diana bashing at all on here, if there is any bashing it has been directed much more at Charles then Diana.

Some people's rather make Diana look like a Saint and make Charles look Evil. Diana is not a Saint (And Charles is not either) and Charles is not Evil (Same as Diana). A failing of a marriage is always 50/59.


They both made made mistakes, they both did or said things that were not right. Neither of them are perfect. However when it came to parenting they both had a hand in raising their boys and teaching then to become young good mens.

By the way if Diana was yelling at Charles In front of the boys then I could see why he walk away. You should never fight or yell at your spouse in from of Your children's. My parents never argued in front of us.

 

[NGalitzine]

But its called History ! Diana is an historical figure who played a major role in the BRF and we MUST be critical about her life and her behaviour. I don't see any bashing at all...

Now Nico , you know very well that for some some people any questioning of Dianas actions or motives or role in the breakdown of her own marriage is considered bashing. That which does not sanctify Diana is not acceptable.