Charles and Diana

[Mermaid1962]

Diana's entire life changed. She went from being unknown to the general public to being HRH The Princess of Wales and pregnant with her first child within about a year. She did it quite willingly, but it was a huge change. Prince Charles didn't have to learn how to live like a royal prince or deal with the media, because he had been doing it all his life. Diana was a private person who took on a very public life.

[/QUOTE] In this context, in this thread, did the twenty year old Diana not make sacrifices in the entire changing of her way of life?[/QUOTE]

 

[Mermaid1962]

Don't forget, none of us knew that Diana was living at Buckingham Palace. We all thought that she was at Clarence House, with the Queen mother; so no wonder the press thought that she was being hovered over by the Queen Mother. The QM was a very active 81-year-old at the time. I expect that she had her own schedule full of things to do.

I read something just recently about Margaret riding to an event with Diana during an early engagement and telling her who to shake hands with and so on.

In "A View From the Sidelines", Michael Shea discusses how Diana was taught about the media. She was taken to t.v. and radio studios to see how things worked, and she even took calls (anonymously) at the Buckingham Palace Press Office.

Diana lasted one term at her Swiss finishing school before her parents relented and allowed her to come home.

I said 'curtseying etc' in my post about Lady Susan Hussey. The etc would have included various court protocols. I'm afraid a lot of what newspapers and magazines printed about Diana and her engagement activities and early marriage at the time turned out often to be a lot of baloney.

In no book (biography) that I've ever read did Diana have a lot to do with the Queen Mother. Some of the reported comments Diana was supposed to have made about being so so used to the Queen's company before her marriage weren't true, either.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Finally, someone who thinks like I do! Ideas about courtship and marriage are so different now than they were even in the 70s and early 80s. Consider, for instance, that the press was led to believe that Diana was living down The Mall from Prince Charles, when in fact she had a suite of rooms down the corridor from him.

I don't agree that cohabiting before marriage necessarily makes the marriage more likely to last. In fact, statistically, the opposite has been shown to be true.

 

[Mermaid1962]

She was at his 30th birthday party as well. Diana would have been 17.5 years old then. ?

However I don't know how much she would have seen of him till she met him at the friends' party where they sat on hay bales chatting.. She was a lot younger, and I don't think she was in his social circle.. She had her own circle of friends... and might have just run across him at a big party..

 

[Denville]

well yes she knew him and she was given insrtuciton in "Royal life"..but it wasn't by the queen Mother.
and I think she wasn't aware of how formal Royal life is, even in private, because she had never been part of the "inner circle" who socialised with royals as an adult. She did get invites to "big royal events" because of her status and being part of 2 families who were courtiers, but until she started dating Charles she had no regular contact with the RF.
It was a big change for her, and less of a change for Charles.. of course. He just had to accommodate a wife in hs life, she had to give up her old life and learn about a new one.

 

[Missjersey]

For me, Charles married to satisfy others and Diana married for a title. IMO she cunningly sought him out as it has been said as if auditioning for a role. No one thought it would end as it did although something noticeable enough for “insiders” to question them both I agree with much prior posts only to add as years went on I believe Diana tried to bend the Queen’s will and change the monarchy to what she wanted

 

[Denville]

Not at all. Diana believed she was in love with Charles - and yes she wanted to be Princess of Wales? Why not. she hoped that it would make up for her onw feelings of inadequacy.. adn it was a perfectly normal ambition for a girl of her class.
And Charles married because he had reached the age when he really had to settle and get married and have children.. and he thougt that he was fond enough of Diana for it to work out.
Diana did try to change the monarchy but it is bound to change every generation. However, she was not IMO expeirneced or intelligent enough to do it in a considered fashion. She made haphazard attempts, tried to criticise her husband and ended up in a position of more or less "pushed out".

 

[Tsaritsa]

For me, Charles married to satisfy others and Diana married for a title. IMO she cunningly sought him out as it has been said as if auditioning for a role. No one thought it would end as it did although something noticeable enough for “insiders” to question them both I agree with much prior posts only to add as years went on I believe Diana tried to bend the Queen’s will and change the monarchy to what she wanted

If I marry a Mr Whoever, it's reasonable enough to expect that I wish to be MRS Whoever. Diana was in far less need of a title than many others. She already had one. I think, like many other 16 year olds -the age she was when she met his socially- she had dreams. In her case, dreams -NEEDS- of a happy ever after, lasting marriage. However, on the day they married, my words were "There are more than 13 years age difference dividing them". Those words were followed with these others "But at least she's made the one marriage which can't fail"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tsaritsa]

Not at all. Diana believed she was in love with Charles - and yes she wanted to be Princess of Wales? Why not. she hoped that it would make up for her onw feelings of inadequacy.. adn it was a perfectly normal ambition for a girl of her class.
And Charles married because he had reached the age when he really had to settle and get married and have children.. and he thougt that he was fond enough of Diana for it to work out.
Diana did try to change the monarchy but it is bound to change every generation. However, she was not IMO expeirneced or intelligent enough to do it in a considered fashion. She made haphazard attempts, tried to criticise her husband and ended up in a position of more or less "pushed out".

Spot on, Denville.

 

[Denville]

The courtesy title of an earl's daugther is not the same as the title of the wife of a senior Royal, much less a future queen.
yes she did believe and hope that this was " a marriage that could not end in divorce" which was an attraction when her home had been broken up by selflish parents and a bitter divorce.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I agree, Denville. Lady Diana's "title" wasn't truly hers; it was a courtesy title based on her father's. That's why it didn't really make much sense to me when she reported said that her title was older than Prince Philip's. His original title was as a Prince of Greece and Denmark, and Denmark is the oldest monarchy in Europe. Plus, the first Duke of Edinburgh was Prince Frederick, the grandson of George I, who created the title in 1726. The Earl of Spencer title was created by George III in 1765. She was wrong on both counts.

I do believe that Diana thought that she was in love with Prince Charles, but I don't believe that she was any more "cunning" than another aristocratic girl who would have fit Prince Charles' requirements. Plus, she was pretty and fun to be around for him.

 

[Osipi]

At the time of the engagement, I don't think Diana knew who she was in love with. Was it Charles, the man or Charles, The Prince of Wales? I don't think she realized that the man she was in love with was actually two different people that she needed to know and understand. There was Charles with his own insecurities, idiosyncrasies, likes and dislikes and then there was The Prince of Wales with duties, responsibilities and a chocked full calendar of places he had to go and things he needed to do. This all made for a very complicated person that she was marrying and "in love" with. I don't think she took the needed amount of time to really be familiar with all that Charles was.

I do think too that she thought that after marriage, she could change things to be more to her liking. She believed that she would be the highest on a pedestal in Charles' life and could "mold" him to her liking. She didn't figure in that there was a lot in Charles' life that was unchangeable and that there would always be things that Charles held dear such as his responsibilities, his duty to Crown and Country and his own passions that Diana could never have a say in.

These are reasons why I believe that Diana found her marriage to be a total let down from what she expected it to be. Cold, hard reality sunk in and the fairy tale Barbara Cartland idea of "happily ever after" went out the window.

 

[Somebody]

I agree, Denville. Lady Diana's "title" wasn't truly hers; it was a courtesy title based on her father's. That's why it didn't really make much sense to me when she reported said that her title was older than Prince Philip's. His original title was as a Prince of Greece and Denmark, and Denmark is the oldest monarchy in Europe. Plus, the first Duke of Edinburgh was Prince Frederick, the grandson of George I, who created the title in 1726. The Earl of Spencer title was created by George III in 1765. She was wrong on both counts.

If a title became extinct it doesn't matter any more when it was first created. The title always takes it's ancienty from the last creation (this is also reflected in the order of precedence; the next Dukes of Kent and Gloucester will be the lowest ranking dukes based on the date of the last creation). So yes, the Duke of Edinburgh title was much younger than the Earl of Spencer title, but of course his princely title was way older than 1726 (although the Danish titles of course work very differently; all heirs through the make line from approved have that title (until Queen Margrethe's descendants) in comparison to the Earl title that was only inherited by the oldest son (or oldest male-line male relative).

 

[Tsaritsa]

At the time of the engagement, I don't think Diana knew who she was in love with. Was it Charles, the man or Charles, The Prince of Wales? I don't think she realized that the man she was in love with was actually two different people that she needed to know and understand. There was Charles with his own insecurities, idiosyncrasies, likes and dislikes and then there was The Prince of Wales with duties, responsibilities and a chocked full calendar of places he had to go and things he needed to do. This all made for a very complicated person that she was marrying and "in love" with. I don't think she took the needed amount of time to really be familiar with all that Charles was.

I do think too that she thought that after marriage, she could change things to be more to her liking. She believed that she would be the highest on a pedestal in Charles' life and could "mold" him to her liking. She didn't figure in that there was a lot in Charles' life that was unchangeable and that there would always be things that Charles held dear such as his responsibilities, his duty to Crown and Country and his own passions that Diana could never have a say in.

These are reasons why I believe that Diana found her marriage to be a total let down from what she expected it to be. Cold, hard reality sunk in and the fairy tale Barbara Cartland idea of "happily ever after" went out the window.

Very insightful, Osipi

 

[FashionMaven]

At the time of the engagement, I don't think Diana knew who she was in love with. Was it Charles, the man or Charles, The Prince of Wales? I don't think she realized that the man she was in love with was actually two different people that she needed to know and understand. There was Charles with his own insecurities, idiosyncrasies, likes and dislikes and then there was The Prince of Wales with duties, responsibilities and a chocked full calendar of places he had to go and things he needed to do. This all made for a very complicated person that she was marrying and "in love" with. I don't think she took the needed amount of time to really be familiar with all that Charles was.

I do think too that she thought that after marriage, she could change things to be more to her liking. She believed that she would be the highest on a pedestal in Charles' life and could "mold" him to her liking. She didn't figure in that there was a lot in Charles' life that was unchangeable and that there would always be things that Charles held dear such as his responsibilities, his duty to Crown and Country and his own passions that Diana could never have a say in.

These are reasons why I believe that Diana found her marriage to be a total let down from what she expected it to be. Cold, hard reality sunk in and the fairy tale Barbara Cartland idea of "happily ever after" went out the window.

This sounds very reasonable. Given everything we now know about Charles and his mindset at the time (and that ghastly "whatever in love means"), I think poor Di got a huge shock. The kind of acting out we saw from her was mild compared to what she could have done. She was the only non-adult really when this all began - the other adults around her behaved abominably, imo.

It's really unfortunate that she didn't have anyone truly in her corner who could have helped her. She needed a strong mother figure to counter some of the mess.

After reading all of this information about the BRF, Charles, Diana, Camilla, Diana's family, etc., it's AMAZING that she was able to be such a brilliant shining star in her own right. Flawed, yes, but brilliant.

 

[Denville]

What did they do that was so abominable?? She was an adult, albeit a young and immature girl..but she was old enough to get married. She knew that this marriage was one that coudlnt end in divorce.. But when it ended up badly, she pushed nad pushed till she got a divorce. Then she was cleary shaken and unhappy about being "pushed out" by the RF insisting that things had gone too far and that there had to be a divorce. She had legitimate grievances, but she pushed things way too far... Its true that Charles had lingering feelings for Camilla, but he was IMO fond of Diana and willing to fall in love with her. He thought that she shared his interests and that she was if still very young, mature enough to marry. When he found that she was NOT that keen on most of his pursuits which were pretty much "standard" in the RF at the time.. and that she was very very unable to cope with the demands of Royal life, he did his best to help for a time. He got her to see psychiatrists. It wasn't his fault that there was little knowledge of eating disorders at the time..He stayed home with her, He spent time with her and the children. He took her on SUnshine holidays. He tired to understand why she was making herself sick but it wasn't an illness that he knew anyting about, like 90% of people at the time. And she concealed her illness, or tried to.. because that's a feature of it. She wouldn't talk to doctors or shrinks about it. She wasn't likely to get better unless she could find a therapist and be honest with him about her illness.
It wasn't her fault that she was mentally fragile.. it wasn't entirely her fault that she was ill educated... and knew little about Royal life so that it all came as a schok to her.. but she idnd't always act wisely. The RF were wlling to tolerate her living a separate life to Charles in private, and taking a lover if she was discreet. They weren't too happy about the way she overshadowed her husband But I think they were willing to overlook that if she did the royal job well and maintained a civil relationshp with her husband..
But increasingly she did not even try to fit in with their ways.. She began to leak things to the papers.. She picked a lover who was very indiscreet about his affair with her..

 

[Dee Anna]

She got engaged at 19 and at just barely 20 married an older man who wasn't in love with her.

 

[FashionMaven]

She got engaged at 19 and at just barely 20 married an older man who wasn't in love with her.

Exactly - and we know the rest. That was - there isn't another word for it - abominable.

 

[Denville]

what was "abominable" about it? Nobody forced her. She went out with Charles, she chose to marry him. She was indeed very eager to marry him though she later said that they had only had about 12 or 13 dates.. (which is probably inaccurate as they certainly spent weekends together, she visited him at Balmoral once or twice and went on the Royal Yacht with him.). He wasn't deeply in love with her but he was IMO fiond of her, believed tat they had enough in common to make their marriage work, and he tried to make it work.
How on earth could he have known that she was emotionally and psychologically fragile, and that under the pressure of Royal life, she would get very wobbly and Develop Bulimia. How was he to know that she didn't really enjoy the country life and sports she was seeming to enjoy when they were courting

 

[Mermaid1962]

I don't believe either that they saw each other only 13 times before getting married. Besides the weekend visits, Charles was supposed to have a safe house in London where he could meet her. His valet, Stephen Barry, wrote about picking her up at rendezvous spots such as her grandmother's or her sister Jane's.

 

[Osipi]

She got engaged at 19 and at just barely 20 married an older man who wasn't in love with her.

He may not have been head over heels "in love" with her but he had the conviction that they could make a go of it and he did care deeply for her although he did not understand her. Their ideas of what marriage should be like was totally different going into the marriage. I do think Diana perhaps had an over romanticized vision while Charles was looking for a partner to work together in marriage. Neither one could give the other what they wanted and needed.

Oil and vinegar.

 

[Denville]

I don't believe either that they saw each other only 13 times before getting married. Besides the weekend visits, Charles was supposed to have a safe house in London where he could meet her. His valet, Stephen Barry, wrote about picking her up at rendezvous spots such as her grandmother's or her sister Jane's.

I don't think they spent a HUGE amount of time together but I'm glad that someone is agreeing that Diana's supposedly saying "they only met 12 or 13 times" is a retcon on her part. they were courting for a few months, spent weekends with her at Cam's home and him at Highgrove, and they went out together in London. and she visited him at Balmoral and on Brittannia.. I think that it wasn't like a lot of courtships where people have a couple of years to get to know each other or who can live togetheter.. but they did spend a lot more than 13 dates.

 

[Denville]

He may not have been head over heels "in love" with her but he had the conviction that they could make a go of it and he did care deeply for her although he did not understand her. Their ideas of what marriage should be like was totally different going into the marriage. I do think Diana perhaps had an over romanticized vision while Charles was looking for a partner to work together in marriage. Neither one could give the other what they wanted and needed.

Oil and vinegar.

Charles said more than once that as his marriage had to last and as the woman in question was going to be queen.. he tought of marriage as a partnership, a friendship, more than a romance. ANd IMO he was right...
I think that friendship and closeness and common interests and a common outlook are better foundations for marriage than "romance" or sex. But I think he was attracted by her physically.. and he was feeling the pressure of "needing to get settled" and ther was a lot of pressure from the Papers, who had decided that Diana was adorable, pretty, young enough to be a virgin and mouldable..

 

[Jacknch]

Please note that posts relating to Diana's health have been moved to the http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f38/dianas-eating-disorders-and-health-issues-4416.html thread.

 

[Osipi]

Charles said more than once that as his marriage had to last and as the woman in question was going to be queen.. he tought of marriage as a partnership, a friendship, more than a romance. ANd IMO he was right...
I think that friendship and closeness and common interests and a common outlook are better foundations for marriage than "romance" or sex. But I think he was attracted by her physically.. and he was feeling the pressure of "needing to get settled" and ther was a lot of pressure from the Papers, who had decided that Diana was adorable, pretty, young enough to be a virgin and mouldable..

I think you pretty much nailed it as to the expectations going into marriage. The special intimacy of "best friends" was totally missing from their marriage from the get go. In fact, I would even go as far as to state that, in a nutshell, was what Diana knew was missing, wanted her marriage to have and because of the extreme differences in their personalities, could never attain.

It was easy during the short courtship to pretend to love everything about Charles' life to draw him towards her. Keeping up the pretense for a lifetime was impossible. As time went by, Diana grew to deeply resent those that could have a close connection with Charles for the main reason being that she, herself, didn't. One thing that can never be forced is a close bond between two people and in going about trying to eliminate the "threats" and isolate Charles to the point that she would be all he had, she actually drove him away. Manipulation never succeeds.

 

[Denville]

I think she TRIED to form a close bond with Charles and I don't think that she tried to isolate him per se. But I think that she had convinced herself during the courtship that she was "madly in love" and that he was falling in love wit her.. and that it would all be rosy.. and when she got married reality hit her hard. once she found herself at Balmoral, NOT enjoying all the sporty talk and acitivtiy and finding the RF dull and scary at close quarters, she freaked out. But she did make attempts to fit in, and to form that sort of close bond with Charles that she felt was "perfect married life". however it was forcing herself against her inclinations. She wanted to be in London, not Scotland. She didn't want endless shooting parties, seeing Charles ride off hunting at weekends, cold wet weather and no shops or lively people nearby. So she would flare up at him and drive him further away. and I think that she would feel bad, and unhappy and convinced that "he loved Camilla who was horsey and country girl type, much more than he could ever love her".. and give way to bouts of miserable jealousy. And problaby the more she got angry or tearful the more Charles DID think longingly that it would be nice to be with Camilla.
And it is hard to blame Diana for being nervous that they lived so close to Camilla, and that Charles' old friends were all pals of hers as well, so she felt ill at ease with them.. But I don't think she really tried to isolate him, as such, she just didn't want him to see his old mistress again, why should she?

 

[Tsaritsa]

I think she TRIED to form a close bond with Charles and I don't think that she tried to isolate him per se. But I think that she had convinced herself during the courtship that she was "madly in love" and that he was falling in love wit her.. and that it would all be rosy.. and when she got married reality hit her hard. once she found herself at Balmoral, NOT enjoying all the sporty talk and acitivtiy and finding the RF dull and scary at close quarters, she freaked out. But she did make attempts to fit in, and to form that sort of close bond with Charles that she felt was "perfect married life". however it was forcing herself against her inclinations. She wanted to be in London, not Scotland. She didn't want endless shooting parties, seeing Charles ride off hunting at weekends, cold wet weather and no shops or lively people nearby. So she would flare up at him and drive him further away. and I think that she would feel bad, and unhappy and convinced that "he loved Camilla who was horsey and country girl type, much more than he could ever love her".. and give way to bouts of miserable jealousy. And problaby the more she got angry or tearful the more Charles DID think longingly that it would be nice to be with Camilla.
And it is hard to blame Diana for being nervous that they lived so close to Camilla, and that Charles' old friends were all pals of hers as well, so she felt ill at ease with them.. But I don't think she really tried to isolate him, as such, she just didn't want him to see his old mistress again, why should she?

OK! Deep breath! I watched the wedding with my then, soon to be husband with whom I was "madly in love". We married the following year and within 6 months I found myself in exactly the same position as Diana. It matters not that I was older, the feelings of fear and powerlessness were the same. The other woman -as was the other woman in Diana's marriage- was years older than I, she and my husband had common interests -which they'd managed to freeze me out of- we were all members of the same social set so naturally it was common knowledge. I tried everything known to man -or rather, woman- to no avail. ONE person can't try for two people. In a game for two, if one refuses to participate, the situation is hopeless. From a woman who'd felt confident and loved, I became a clingy, wimpy mess. I, at least, had the luxury of comparative privacy. Diana's situation was played out in full view of the world stage. How much more humiliating must that have been?

(The eventual and inevitable split was the best thing that ever happened to me. I did a degree, I retrained as a therapist, and I met a wonderful new man)

 

[Denville]

well with all due respect, I don't quite see what that has to do with Charles and Diana's marriage. It was differnet ot other marriages in that it was a public and constitutional affair as much as a private relationship. It was supposed to last for life and divorce was not supposed to be an option.
Diana was young and IMO very immature even for her age but she should have understood that.. Im sure she was warned during her courtship that "this was the big one and that if it didn't work out, she still had to stick it out."
However I think that she was eager to get mariried and ignored warning signs.. and was good at fooling herself that she shared Charles' interests much more than she really did. To be fair to her I think that Charles and indeed the RF probably ignored warning signs too.
but IMO BOTH of them did try to make the marriage work... But she was young, immature and really very unprepared for what she was in for as a royal wife. And her bulimia made her volatile and erratic, and probalbly her tantrums were caused by all the stress of her illness. I think that Charles tired too.. He told his friends that he wouldn't have as much time for them as he had had previously. He tried to accommodate Diana's liking for sunny holidays, taking her abroad in the winter, but he did still enjoy his country sports and went on with them.. and Diana problaby resented that, as she had less to occupy her in her first couple of years as a wife. He loved the children and seems to have enjoyed being with them as babies and spent a good bit of time in the nursery.. but really apart from the children they had little in common and although they did both make efforts to fit in with each other, it was hard for them and they problably failed to make the efforts to please each other as time went on and they became more unhappy.
IMO it was a marriage that had very little chance of success, due to their very differnet temperaments, interests, ages, and Diana's mental and emotional fragility.. but that's not to say that both of them did not make an effort to adjust to each other

 

[Nice Nofret]

I'm convinced that Diana's idea on what constitues a 'working marriage' and that of Charles were very different indeed. And they also differed a lot in how to bond. He wanted to bond over shared books, nature, country persuits, interlectual persuits and working together as a royal couple - her ideas where probably Barbara Carlandish and totaly romantic ...

the main problem from the start was IMHO, that she pretended to be interested in the same things as he was, but imediatly after the wedding going into tantrums over that kind of stuff.

 

[Denville]

well yes, I think that Charles saw it as them sharing interests, and doing engagements.. but the trouble was that Diana was nervous at engagemetns at first.. and of course tended to overshadow him.. and in private she did'n't really share his interests at all. I think she rather saw them sititng "talking love" all the time.. and when he hoped she'd go fishing or watch him shooting or whatever, or read books together, she began to freak out at being asked to do this.
I think she was good at hypnotising herself during ther courtship that she was having a great time when they were in the country doing country things.. when she found herself married and "stuck in the country longer than a weekend", she realised that no, she found it increidbily boring and it freaked her out. I think that the RF milling round in Scotland upset her, she couldn't relax and didn't realise that "at home with the Queen" is very formal.. and so she was getting more and more hysterical during the Balmoral bit of their honeymoon.. and began to get angry and upset when Charles tried to either coax her out to do country things or if she didn't want to go, expected her to let him go and amuse herself indoors.