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  #1681  
Old 07-02-2016, 08:49 PM
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Lady Nimue's comments tally closely to what was in the Tina Brown biography - Diana lost a lot of perspective of her place in the overall set up of the RF and her star power was too overpowering and threw the group dynamic out balance.

She also overlooked the basic fact that her husband was the future king and therefore not a man to anger or alienate. She may have been popular with the public but her social base was narrow and during the early years offended too many within her and Cs social circle - including Camilla who was not a woman to treat lightly or in an offhanded way.

Diana's delusions about her family's power, influence, and status I.e. That they were somehow superior to the RF was also a major factor in her behaviour becoming more arrogant and unbalanced, as well as causing a great deal of offence her in laws who are sensitive I the subject of their German heritage. The time of aristocratic grandees being able to run rival courts and influence the choice of King was long gone but somone failed to tell Diana this fact until it was too late.
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  #1682  
Old 07-02-2016, 09:02 PM
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I totally agree. In my opinion the affairs were just a symptom, not the cause.

I believe that this marriage was doomed from the start. I do not think there was enough common ground between them to build the sort of solid relationship they needed in order for the marriage to last, or perhaps just not enough for these two particular people to be able to achieve that objective. I do not believe that forcing Charles to stay away from Camilla would have meant that he would have been happy with Diana, or indeed made him into a person that Diana would have been happy with.
Sad to say, I agree that a marriage built on dreams was bound to falter. Diana "adored" the country . . . until she married and made it plain that her idea of a holiday was yachts in the Med and not kilts in the heather. That may not sound like a biggie but it spoke to Charles deep love of the country, organic gardening, farming, "creating" Highgrove, etc. in short, his raison d'ętre.

I do not know where the idea that Camilla was a problem throughout the marruage came from initially. Charles refused to drop his friends both male and female to satisfy Diana's need for his total attention and after their seperation it was Tiggie Legge-Bourke that was the target of her ire, right down to publically accusing her of falling pregnant and aborting it.
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  #1683  
Old 07-02-2016, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post
Lady Nimue's comments tally closely to what was in the Tina Brown biography
I should read Tina Brown.

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Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post
Diana lost a lot of perspective of her place in the overall set up of the RF and her star power was too overpowering and threw the group dynamic out balance.
She definitely was obsessed with her fashion reviews. We are told she pored over her pictures in the newspapers. She effectively lived through her press. It became her 'career'. Just with that alone I can understand why she did not want to go into a private life after she divorced. Letting go of her 'career' would have been hard on her, but the raison d'ętre for that 'career' was gone with the divorce, except as mother to the future king. I find her end so sad. (If only she had been more circumspect....totally different outcome).

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Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post
She also overlooked the basic fact that her husband was the future king and therefore not a man to anger or alienate.
Have definitely read that Charles has a temper, but have also heard (read) that Charles is the first to apologize, and is extremely generous, both with friends and servants. My impression is he is a sensitive sort. It seems to me that Charles would have done what he could to make it all agreeable. That she was so relentless against him has always puzzled me.

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Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post
She may have been popular with the public but her social base was narrow and during the early years offended too many within her and Cs social circle - including Camilla who was not a woman to treat lightly or in an offhanded way.
That is what I understand, too, and it's an interesting way to put it: her social base among her social peers was narrow. What was sad about it all was had she 'taken to' the social milieu Charles introduced her to (which would have included his dinner parties with the luminaries of the day, etc) she would have been part of a very smart set, indeed. (This is something I do not understand about Diana: how much she threw away, and how much she did not understand about embracing a spouse's world).

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Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post
Diana's delusions about her family's power, influence, and status I.e. That they were somehow superior to the RF was also a major factor in her behaviour becoming more arrogant and unbalanced, as well as causing a great deal of offence her in laws who are sensitive I the subject of their German heritage. The time of aristocratic grandees being able to run rival courts and influence the choice of King was long gone but somone failed to tell Diana this fact until it was too late.
Is all this in Tina Brown's bio of Diana? Interesting thinking. Did people really think like this when Diana was alive? I haven't come across it in the books I've read.

Question: Is it worth while to read Tina Brown bio of Diana?

A thought occurs to me: that because Diana really was not part of her social set (not sure why, maybe education?) she found it hard to accept the world she found around Charles, which really doomed the relationship. She found it easier to be generous with the social strata 'below' her. She just had to exist with them and was adored. Just a thought. Would explain a lot.

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I do not know where the idea that Camilla was a problem throughout the marruage came from initially. Charles refused to drop his friends both male and female to satisfy Diana's need for his total attention and after their seperation it was Tiggie Legge-Bourke that was the target of her ire, right down to publically accusing her of falling pregnant and aborting it.
Exactly so.
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  #1684  
Old 07-02-2016, 10:23 PM
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The view that the Royal family isn't as deeply rooted in English life as the very old aristocratic families is a Whig one from the 18th century. It has nothing to do with power, goes back generations and is widely held among the aristocracy. It certainly wasn't just Diana who held it! Ive read that view in countless books on the aristocracy. It's been discussed thoroughly on this thread I think or one of the other Diana ones.

With reference to Charles and CPB before he married Diana, Sarah Bradford's biography

'To a friend who said how delighted they must be with the wedding Margaret replied 'We're extremely relieved but she (CPB) has no intention of giving him (Charles) up.'

Old Etonian and writer Hugo Vickers commented in his diary at the time of the Diana/Charles engagement.

'Prince Charles is a weak man who doesn't really know what he wants. It is not unknown that he prefers the company of older married ladies. This is almost the Royal disease. He was for ages in the arms of Lady Tryon....But Camilla Parker Bowles is the one. She has had a hold for some time'....Ages ago X (name appears in the diary) told X that the delay for the engagement was due to Mrs PB's reluctance to hand him over.....'
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  #1685  
Old 07-02-2016, 10:46 PM
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Why oh why are people still hashing this out so many years latter. Nothing has changed and nothing will change. Let historians talk about it in 100 years.
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  #1686  
Old 07-02-2016, 11:05 PM
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Charles was clearly unsure that he was in love with Diana in the way most people are when they wed, and Lady Mountbatten, his godmother, specifically spoke to Brandreth about Charles's feelings during his engagement.

She is quoted by him as saying 'He (Charles) tried to get out of it. He really wasn't sure that he wanted to go through with it.'

Yes, undying love there for his young bride or sure!

You, Lady Nimue, critique posts you disagree with. I'm sorry to say this but you cherry pick. Your own prejudices are on view. You make very little attempt to be fair to Diana in your judgements, quite obviously dislike her and yet Charles's faults (and he has many) go unremarked by you.

You accuse others of 'projecting', yet you yourself admit that Diana makes you squirm, feel uncomfortable! As well, you intimate that she was insane. I'm not a psychiatrist or psychoanalyst. Are you? No trained professional would analyse a person as insane from biographies and magazine articles, or from YouTube videos. If they did I certainly wouldn't be availing myself of their services if I felt in need.

Anyway, I have provided sources.

I own many many biographies on Diana, Charles, Charles and Camilla, the Queen, Philip, the Duchess of York and other royals, both historical and foreign, and over the decades have read many more, so I certainly regard myself as informed.

Brandreth has friendships and links throughout the upper classes of Britain. He wouldn't quote people directly as he did in this biography if they hadn't said these things. It's quite clear that Charles and Camilla were sleeping together while she was married to APB and that their relationship was known to the polo crowd and within London Society. It's also clear that they were extremely close right up until Charles's engagement.
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  #1687  
Old 07-03-2016, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
Are there any transcripts of those interviews? I followed them all through the 80's and 90's, but I don't remember when the cracks in their marriage first started to show.
I have seen the interviews with Charles and Di albeit some time ago, but I cant' remember anything to the effect that Diana was "squirm making" or disrespectful in her manner towards him??? there weren't very many that I can think of anyway, just the one with Alistair Burnett, in 1985 I think. I think that there were stories about the marriage having problems from early on, such as Tina Brown's article in 1984 or so stating that Diana was unhappy nad that she had gotten rid of a lot of C's staff.. I think that servants talked, from early on, and stories appeared but there are always stories about royal marriages, that they are in trouble and mostly they are based on th usual ups and downs of married life. However, I don't think that really serious stories began to appear till the late 80s when I think they were more obviously seen as leading separate lives and seeing their own friends.. and then the rumours started of them both having other lovers.
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  #1688  
Old 07-03-2016, 02:18 AM
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Changing the topic slightly - what about the C/D marriage and divorce in the context of other European royal families of the day? Charles wasn't the only straying Royal male, but unlike the others he was only screwing around with one woman and later did the honourable thing by her which is more than I can say about a number of others. Diana on the other hand was much worse than a number of these other Royal ladies (expect maybe for the notoriously lazy, selfish and stupid Queen Paola). What made this so different and worth getting fired up about? I'm keen to know your views :)
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  #1689  
Old 07-03-2016, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post
Changing the topic slightly - what about the C/D marriage and divorce in the context of other European royal families of the day? Charles wasn't the only straying Royal male, but unlike the others he was only screwing around with one woman and later did the honourable thing by her which is more than I can say about a number of others. Diana on the other hand was much worse than a number of these other Royal ladies (expect maybe for the notoriously lazy, selfish and stupid Queen Paola). What made this so different and worth getting fired up about? I'm keen to know your views :)
I dont take much interest in the other royal families, but i am a bit bemused that you feel Diana was "much worse" than the wives of other Kings/Princes.
Did she have faults? Yes of course she did. Was she "damaged",.. yes I think that she was. But she wasn't insane and she wasn't "monstrously selfish".

She was of a different generation to other royal women who had straying husbands. I assume you're talking about Carl Gustaf and Juan C of Spain. Well Q Sofia is in her 70s, so she is a lot older than Diana, and was Im sure of the kind who just ignored her husband's affairs and let them happen. She didn't expect him to be by her side or 100% faithful. I know little about Carl G but he's no chicken so Id imagine that his wife too was of the generation to turn a blind eye, whereas Diana was of a different generation who thought that if her husband was unfaithful she would retaliate or get a divorce.
It was stupid and IMo selfish and wrong of her to publicise Charles' affair, and his "being a bad husband" but I think that she was a seriously depressed and somewhat isolated woman who did not have great advice and who didn't listen to good advice when she got it.
what did she do that was so terrible ohter than that? Was she a bad mohter? Certianly not. DId she do the royal job, fairly well, and try to be a good friend and to help those less fortunate than herself? Yes I think she did....
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  #1690  
Old 07-03-2016, 02:51 AM
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I dont take much interest in the other royal families, but i am a bit bemused that you feel Diana was "much worse" than the wives of other Kings/Princes.
Did she have faults? Yes of course she did. Was she "damaged",.. yes I think that she was. But she wasn't insane and she wasn't "monstrously selfish".

She was of a different generation to other royal women who had straying husbands. I assume you're talking about Carl Gustaf and Juan C of Spain. Well Q Sofia is in her 70s, so she is a lot older than Diana, and was Im sure of the kind who just ignored her husband's affairs and let them happen. She didn't expect him to be by her side or 100% faithful. I know little about Carl G but he's no chicken so Id imagine that his wife too was of the generation to turn a blind eye, whereas Diana was of a different generation who thought that if her husband was unfaithful she would retaliate or get a divorce.
It was stupid and IMo selfish and wrong of her to publicise Charles' affair, and his "being a bad husband" but I think that she was a seriously depressed and somewhat isolated woman who did not have great advice and who didn't listen to good advice when she got it.
what did she do that was so terrible ohter than that? Was she a bad mohter? Certianly not. DId she do the royal job, fairly well, and try to be a good friend and to help those less fortunate than herself? Yes I think she did....

That's the precise point I was getting at and thank you for doing so - I did not mean it in an accusitory way but I just wanted to look at where this fitted. It's a factor that gets overlooked when the War of the Waleses gets discussed on forums like this and I wanted to bring it up as the generational aspect is important and may explain one of the reasons why Camilla has been embraced by the other euro royals in a way Diana was not.
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  #1691  
Old 07-03-2016, 02:55 AM
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It was stupid and IMo selfish and wrong of her to publicise Charles' affair, and his "being a bad husband" but I think that she was a seriously depressed and somewhat isolated woman who did not have great advice and who didn't listen to good advice when she got it.
She advertised Charles' wandering when it was her wanderings that were 'breaking news' in the press. She always pointed at Charles when she was in hot water. What she did she did totally on her own, through her own devising. She was both a very smart, and a very foolish, woman. A unique combination. The idea set forth that she wanted her husband was just crafty spin on her part. Inspired really.
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  #1692  
Old 07-03-2016, 02:57 AM
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I must re read TB since i dont recall this..but it is problaby just speculation on TB's part.
I haven't read Gyles B.

No, Brown does quote someone I think, I can't find the page number but it seems to ring true for me. Read the Brandeth book, it's much better than it sounds
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  #1693  
Old 07-03-2016, 06:10 AM
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A number of posts (and incidental responses) have been deleted or edited because they are off-topic. As a reminder, this thread is about Charles and Diana. It is not about Charles and Camilla, Diana and Camilla or a re-hash / debate about love affairs. Such debates have long been controversial, argumentative, disruptive and speculative and are not encouraged on this forum.
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  #1694  
Old 07-03-2016, 02:27 PM
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No, Brown does quote someone I think, I can't find the page number but it seems to ring true for me. Read the Brandeth book, it's much better than it sounds
I'll look again at TB.. who is IMO fair to Diana but not unsympathetic to Charles and how difficult it was for him to work out a relationship with Diana. I' Do believe that she had issues of depression, a hot temper, and a lack of trust in people that made her hard to live with, at close quarters. But it wasn't helped by Charles's being more deeply in love with Camilla, the enormous stress of her life and the fact that at barely 20 she had landed herself in a lifestyle she found difficult to understand or feel happy with.
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  #1695  
Old 07-03-2016, 02:44 PM
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A bit ridiculous to blame Diana for dancing with a well known dancing star at a public event, on a foreign tour, accompanied by her husband. It is not a "publicity stunt", its the srot of thing that is expected when you go on a foreign tour that you join in the social events organised by the host country and if a well known dancer is there, you dance with him.
and the night that she's Accused of flirting and dancing with Philp Dunne, Charles had spent the night dancing and talking with his 2 ex girlfriends...
When I said publicity stunt I meant to imply that it was arranged by the US and UK and it was done on purpose; and it had nothing to do with Diana flirting with another man.
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  #1696  
Old 07-03-2016, 03:16 PM
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I don't believe age has anything to do with how Diana acted with a cheating husband. There are a few women I know of who have had famous cheating spouses but have maintained their dignity and respected their husband's publicly and did not get to destroy them. Even those who are of the post 60/70s generation who decided to end the marriage still did not lash out like Diana did.
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  #1697  
Old 07-03-2016, 04:00 PM
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But it wasn't helped by Charles's being more deeply in love with Camilla,... and the fact that at barely 20...
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I don't believe age has anything to do with how Diana acted with a cheating husband.
Diana may have been 20 when she married but she was not 20 in 1988 or 1991.
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  #1698  
Old 07-03-2016, 04:17 PM
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Diana may have been 20 when she married but she was not 20 in 1988 or 1991.
Regardless of her age, Diana did a lot of things that showed that she wasn't in control of her emotions. I believe she always was on the insecure side and perhaps some of the "wrongs" she felt anyone was persecuting her with were due to her own lack of self esteem. This is one reason she kept track of and needed tremendous public approval.
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  #1699  
Old 07-03-2016, 05:14 PM
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They both enjoyed classical music, and they both had their favourite pop groups. They both seemed to enjoy walking.

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They boht liked music but not really the same kind. THey boht liked exercise but Di liked "townie" exercising like tennis and the gym while he liked country sports and horsey sports.
I suppose that my view is different from that of a lot of people. I don't think that the marriage had to end the way it did. As Diana's mother was quoted as saying, "Two people believed in the marriage, and so it was right."
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Old 07-03-2016, 06:48 PM
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I don't believe age has anything to do with how Diana acted with a cheating husband. There are a few women I know of who have had famous cheating spouses but have maintained their dignity and respected their husband's publicly and did not get to destroy them. Even those who are of the post 60/70s generation who decided to end the marriage still did not lash out like Diana did.
They did not have the same difficulty that Diana faced, where she believed that the marriage had to go on, and I'm sure if she spoke to anyone in the RF about it, they would have told her that she could not get a divorce
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