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  #141  
Old 08-04-2007, 10:45 AM
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I totally agrees. Charles was certainly touched by the Mountbatten thing and he can feel the sympathy from Diana. Diana is a caring person of course. I think Prince Charles always wants to be supported, nutured,reassured, understood, and sympathized. Charles thought Diana can be that person so he proposed to her despite some doubts. Camilla is a perfect comforter for Prince Charles and she certainly plays an important role in nuturing him.
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  #142  
Old 08-04-2007, 12:15 PM
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I think Prince Charles always wants to be supported, nutured,reassured, understood, and sympathized.
I think both of them wanted to be supported, nutured, reassured, understood and sympathized.

I thought that Charles needed a lot of attention after his butler's book about how the royals never did anything for themselves and had everything taken care of for them. Also Charles tendencies to send his diary pages around to his friends for their review showed a keen desire to get on a soapbox for an admiring audience.

But I didn't realize how much both Diana and Charles needed handholding until I read Sally Bedows Smith's book and she recounted a conversation with Michael Colburne, Charles' private secretary. Because Colburne was the only servant of Charles that Diana trusted, he fell into the role of referee between the competing demands of Diana and Charles.

He described the last straw in a scene when Charles and Diana were in Canada in 1983. Charles went out to perform some duties one afternoon (I don't know why Diana wasn't with him but this time she wasn't) and Diana was apparently lonely and asked Colburne for company so Colburne apparently hurried up what he was doing for Charles to spend the afternoon with Diana. When Charles got back he called Colburne into his office and exploded at him for neglecting his needs. When Colburne left the office, he found Diana had eavesdropped on the whole conversation. Charles later apologized to Colburne for his outburst but at that point Colburne said he could not continue with the Wales any more.

I think being a servant in that household at that time which both Charles and Diana were throwing competing demands had to have been the job from hell. Both Charles and Diana begged him to stay and he stayed until Harry was born but Smith's book infers that his departure spelled a turning point for the marriage because his absence deprived them of a buffer between the two of them.
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  #143  
Old 08-04-2007, 12:24 PM
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He described the last straw in a scene when Charles and Diana were in Canada in 1983.
I think it's also written in Sarah Bradford's book. Charles during this row, expressed his jealousy over Diana and the interest public give her. Of course she heard it and felt terribly sad. Since that day, Diana realized that the public was her first and more powerful weapon to fight against Charles in the later years.
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  #144  
Old 08-04-2007, 12:31 PM
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I think it's also written in Sarah Bradford's book. Charles during this row, expressed his jealousy over Diana and the interest public give her. Of course she heard it and felt terribly sad. Since that day, Diana realized that the public was her first and more powerful weapon to fight against Charles in the later years.
Hello TheTruth, that may have been how Bradford interpreted the incident but that doesn't seem to be Smith's interpretation.

At the point in Charles' and Diana's marriage when this incident took place 1983-1984 Smith mentioned that Charles had not yet shown a resentment of Diana's popularity.

But apparently by 1983, Charles was showing a resentment of the amount of time that Diana was taking up with his private secretary because he was used to Colburne devoting his full attention to him.

I am at the point at the book where it talks about Diana beginning to take revenge on Charles in public but that appears to have happened much later - in 1990 with the publication of Morton's first book.

So I don't think their jealousies of each others competing needs with the servants were related to their jealousies of their image in the public. I do think it shows both of their need for attention from those cloest to them though.
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  #145  
Old 08-04-2007, 12:53 PM
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Sorry ysbel, I should have explained. The comment of Diana and the public was my own point of view, not Bradford's. It's just what I think happened after realizing the anger it provoked on Charles.
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  #146  
Old 08-04-2007, 12:57 PM
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I can understand Charles' resentment towards Diana's popularity its a blow to the male ego. Some men alllow and even like it when their wives take center stage and are in control while some men just hate it.
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  #147  
Old 08-04-2007, 01:48 PM
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I am at the point at the book where it talks about Diana beginning to take revenge on Charles in public...
i wasn't aware of her doing this...can you give me an example. it might refresh my memory.
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  #148  
Old 08-04-2007, 02:39 PM
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Hi Duchess I haven't read through the entire chapter yet but here is what I read so far.

It was about the time Diana participated with the Andrew Morton book - the most famous example was her solo photo shoot at the Taj Mahal during the trip to India. The press had known that Charles had said before he married that he wanted to take his wife one day to the Taj Majal and so when she made the pose described by one as 'wistful lonliness; the press jumped on the comparisons between Charles' earlier statement and Diana's forlorn look on the steps of the Taj Mahal.

However, I think the state of their marriage at that point really made a joint romantic visit to the Taj Majal by the two of them somewhat impossible so the general consensus is that Diana wanted to show Charles up in that photo op.

But apparently she used events before that to upstage Charles, Andrew Neil of the Sunday Times said that if Charles was meeting an African leader, Diana would plan to be at a big ball and wipe him off the headlines. He also said that Diana manipulated publicity to create the impression that she was an affectionate mother and Charles a cold distant father. When William was hit in the head with a golf ball, apparently the couple were met by the doctor who assured them that there was no danger and it was a simple operation. They agreed that Charles would go to his engagement and Diana would stay with William. The morning after the surgery a friend called Diana who treated the accident as trivial which according to the surgeon it was but when Diana later told the story to several others, she said the fracture was very serious and a narrow escape and she couldn't respect a man like Charles who would leave his son like that.

The most direct example of her involvement with the press in an agenda against Charles was an article in the Daily Mail by Emma Wilkins entitled Happy Birthday Darling, I can't come to the party, in 1991 about Diana's 30th birthday without Charles. Diana apparently leaked the fact that she was spending her 30th birthday apart from Charles to David English, the editor of the Daily Mail This report started a volley of articles about Charles' intentions to throw Diana a grand party with people she wanted with Diana countering that only his stuffy old friends were on the guest list and she didn't want to go. Then followed predictable comparisons between Diana's relationship with James Hewitt and Charles' relationship with Camilla etc. etc.

Eighteen months after the initial storm surrounding the article, Lord MacGregor, the head of the Press Complaints Commission the government agency in charge of handling press complaints, said that he was told that both the Prince and the Princess were the source of these conflicting stories but upon investigation he didn't find any evidence that Charles supplied any of the information and that the only royal source he could find for any of the information was Diana. Since his job was to supervise complaints and he didn't seem to have an agenda, his word was considered reliable.

But I emphasize that this happened rather late in the game in their marriage and a long time after the argument over who Colburne should serve first.

The book mentions other incidents but I don't think they are as clear cut. The time when he went to kiss her after the polo match and she turned her head so he couldn't kiss her was seen as a 'cold Charles' moment but I don't necessarily think she meant to upstage Charles at that point. And then the trip to Korea where she seemed to want to be anywhere but with Charles could I think just be a normal reaction to the state of things although a lot of press was made about it at the time.

No doubt Buckingham Palace would have preferred that both of them go on with the show, no matter what they were feeling inside but I don't think these last two incidents necessarily prove Diana trying to show Charles up. But its hard to argue that the photo of the Taj Mahal wasn't a direct sendup of Charles.
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  #149  
Old 08-04-2007, 02:44 PM
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Sorry ysbel, I should have explained. The comment of Diana and the public was my own point of view, not Bradford's. It's just what I think happened after realizing the anger it provoked on Charles.
That's OK. Thanks for explaining, TheTruth.

I just think if Diana got her idea to upstage Charles from this incident with Colburne, she waited an awful long time (over 6 years) to carry it out.
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  #150  
Old 08-04-2007, 02:54 PM
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How would Andrew Neil know that Diana and Charles agreed for Charles to leave William's bedside after an operation? As I recall he attended an Opera. I must say from any mother's perspective and certainly Dianas, as she always wanted Charles around, it seems odd to me that she would have agreed to Charles attending such an engagement after what had happened. I honestly think she would have wanted Charles with her and William.

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  #151  
Old 08-04-2007, 03:02 PM
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I don't know Lily how he would know. CXharles had had a previous engagement for this event and apparently the surgeon told them that it was a simple operation. That led to the conclusion that both parents didn't need to be there.

My impression though on reading this latest book is that Diana didn't always want Charles around.

An example of not wanting Charles around was her 30th birthday party which I described above. It does appear that she leaked a story to the press that she didn't want Charles around on her 30th birthday.
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  #152  
Old 08-04-2007, 03:04 PM
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I think by the early 90s Diana no longer wanted to pretend that her marriage was fine and perfect thats why she did all those things.
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  #153  
Old 08-04-2007, 03:14 PM
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I think by the early 90s Diana no longer wanted to pretend that her marriage was fine and perfect thats why she did all those things.
That I think is true, sirhon.

But I think some other forces were going on. As an American, I am quite surprised to read that Diana received negative press while she was alive because in America, all we saw were complimentary articles about her.

However, I now see that in Britain, the coverage of Diana was not always complimentary even during her lifetime. In particular her friendship with Sarah, Duchess of York, was considered a little undiginfied and there was greater uproar in Britain when Sarah and Diana both impersonated policeman at an event. In America, it was seen as a harmless prank but in Britain apparently some quarters were very alarmed at their behavior.

Sarah, after an initial love affair with the British press, saw the press turn against her and Diana saw her fair share of articles against her too during this time. This was something that I was unaware of.

Also I was surprised to read that Diana's affair with Hewitt was exposed before Charles' affair with Camilla. Apparently Diana's friends told Smith that Diana became obsessed with bringing Camilla down because she became angry that the press never paid attention to Charles' meanderings but always jumped on her when she talked to a strange man.
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  #154  
Old 08-04-2007, 03:26 PM
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But I think some other forces were going on. As an American, I am quite surprised to read that Diana received negative press while she was alive because in America, all we saw were complimentary articles about her.
I've noticed that too when she died I was 7 but I do remember hearing about her before her death and usually I heard postive reports about her. But years later when I was older and had access to a computer and went on British newspaper and tabloid websites that I realized that in Britain not all reports on her were positive. But that happens with so many other famous people and celebrities.
What always puzzeled me about Charles and Diana's marriage is how long it went. They both were so clearly unhappy with each other but still stayed married. Had I been in a marriage like theirs I wouldn't stay a month. Whats the point in being in a relationship that can no longer work?
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  #155  
Old 08-04-2007, 03:33 PM
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What always puzzeled me about Charles and Diana's marriage is how long it went. They both were so clearly unhappy with each other but still stayed married. Had I been in a marriage like theirs I wouldn't stay a month. Whats the point in being in a relationship that can no longer work?
I so agree with you sirhon! That is the mystery of Charles and Diana. I like Charles well enough but even I can't understand why Diana would stay with him for so long if it was clear that he was happiest with another.

The only reason I can think of is that Diana experienced the trauma of being separated from her mother when her parents divorced and she was scared of losing her children.

Given what I read about the divorce reports between the Earl Spencer and his first wife, it appears that the Earl's title was the major factor behind the judge giving the custody of the children to him.

If Diana was merely a daughter of a nobleman married to the Heir of the Throne, I think she may have feared losing her children if she left Charles.

That is the only reason I can come up with for staying in a marriage like this.
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  #156  
Old 08-04-2007, 03:54 PM
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Absolutely ! If it wasn't for her children, she would have run away with Hewitt or someone else. The image of her mother leaving her was in her memory and when she recalled her unhappy childhood she tought it would be the same traumatism for the boys. She waited too long in this marriage IMO. By staying like this she hurted herself but even the boys who heard the rows between Charles and Diana. Okay, they wouldn't be able to see both of their parents together but it would have been better to see them separately and their mother happy.
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  #157  
Old 08-04-2007, 04:01 PM
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How very true Diana stayed in that marriage for far too long. I don't think it ever croosed anyone's mind that in the same month a year later Diana would die in an accident. What I've learned from their marriage is that never to stay in relationship that is doomed for trouble and heart ache. And from her death I learned to apperciate and live life because we don't know when our time is up.
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  #158  
Old 08-04-2007, 04:44 PM
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I think the Queen was also wanting Charles and Diana to stay together and appear to be a team at least on the surface, and it takes a brave person to defy the Queen.
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Old 08-04-2007, 05:05 PM
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I think the Queen was also wanting Charles and Diana to stay together and appear to be a team at least on the surface, and it takes a brave person to defy the Queen.
I wouldn't even dare look at her in the eyes. And it was certainly not Diana who could have said to the Queen, face to face, I don't like the life I have with your son and heir to the throne Charles
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  #160  
Old 08-04-2007, 06:14 PM
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Hi Duchess I haven't read through the entire chapter yet but here is what I read so far...
of course of course....how could i have forgotten the gold club incident and the book. thanks ysbel.

one thing i've always wondered about though is the taj mahal thing. i just wonder if perhaps that since charles had at one time made the statement that he would like to one day bring his wife there and that if was purely coincidental that diana was in the right place at the right time and the picture was taken and the press made a big thing of it and diana just kind of said "yeah that's it...that's how i can play this out"? did diana really have the saavy to be in that place at that time and stage it all? sometimes i don't think she was just that sharp. the press can piece anything together so going back and finding that quote by charles wouldn't be that far a stretch would it?
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