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  #1521  
Old 06-04-2016, 01:45 PM
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The impression I've had is that she didn't love Charles enough to put up with royal life. She was close enough to the royal family to see what her life would entail.

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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Anyone else have a reason as to why Amanda said no other than the standard Diana worship script?
Both Charles and Diana said in later years that they were in love when they married. Diana said that anyone would believe that who read the letters they wrote to each other; Charles said, after Diana died, that no matter what people said, they were very much in love in the beginning.
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  #1522  
Old 06-04-2016, 01:48 PM
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Yes. Talking on the hay bales. The next meeting that I know of was Cowes Week, and that was when people really picked up on the spark between them. They danced a lot together.

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Charles met Diana at a party given by some of her friends, I think their names were Philip and ? Wife Van Der Pass..(Of course he had met her as a child and when he was dating her sister but this was the "meeting where they started to date."
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  #1523  
Old 06-04-2016, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Th
Both Charles and Diana said in later years that they were in love when they married. Diana said that anyone would believe that who read the letters they wrote to each other; Charles said, after Diana died, that no matter what people said, they were very much in love in the beginning.
Trouble is that Di said that (and I beleive it is true) and charles said it.. but Di did SUCH a job of putting out the story that Charles never loved her, that he lured her into a fake marriage to have kids and cover up his affair with Cam and then was horrible and abusive to her - that some people who read that outpouring will never get over that impression..
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  #1524  
Old 06-04-2016, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
We can theorize until we weigh one ounce about the marriage of the Prince of Wales and Lady Diana Spencer. The UK has the highest divorce rate in the whole of Europe and there were many divorces inside the royal family as well. We can theorize about royal matchmaking, the media pressure, a third one in the marriage, etc. Diana's own brother, the Earl, shows that without pressure, without third persons, without matchmaking, and with entitely free will, the one divorce after the other is possible as well.
If you don't want to participate in the current conversation then you don't have to. We are having a discussion and disputing and debating what we have learned over the years. Part of researching and analyzing history is theorizing what might have been motivating the people involved.
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  #1525  
Old 06-05-2016, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I also pointed out that there were several other royals, like Harald of Norway and Victoria of Sweden who did listen to their hearts, waited for years to marry and weren't prepared to wed anyone they weren't in love with.
It's very possible that Charles' marital disaster was a cautionary tale for every royal family watching. Harold was before that time, but Victoria certainly was counseled to follow her heart. It has a lot to do with family dynamics imo.

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Many subscribe to certain things here which may or may not be myths, such as 'Charles had to marry a virgin'. Did he? [...] Charles knew very well that many of his girlfriends weren't virgins, but if he had been desperately in love with any of them (as he was with Camilla) and felt the time was right, he would have proposed, anyway.
I would say that the underlined bolded is one of those myths, that Charles and Camilla were desperately in love from way back. It's on the order of an urban legend imo.

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Originally Posted by HistoryGirl View Post
I agree with this. It is really difficult to stand by your heart's true desire when everyone seems to be steering you a certain way. Charles capitulated. Understandable, but still a mistake.
Charles is very much his mother's son imo. The Queen is dutiful. Her son is as well. He did what was expected of him, with someone he had every reason to expect was an 'in house' choice.

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I'm still not sure if Charles was madly in love with Camilla and wanted to marry her before she married APB. Perhaps he was or perhaps he just didn't want to marry her then.
I agree.

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Either way, he rushed an important decision and it led to a lot of unhappiness for him. I think age has given him a bit more of a backbone and he seems happy so good for him.
Well put.

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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Both Charles and Diana said in later years that they were in love when they married. Diana said that anyone would believe that who read the letters they wrote to each other; Charles said, after Diana died, that no matter what people said, they were very much in love in the beginning.
Heartbreakingly sad.

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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Trouble is that Di said that (and I beleive it is true) and charles said it.. but Di did SUCH a job of putting out the story that Charles never loved her, that he lured her into a fake marriage to have kids and cover up his affair with Cam and then was horrible and abusive to her - that some people who read that outpouring will never get over that impression..
Yep. Well said.
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  #1526  
Old 06-05-2016, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post

Charles is very much his mother's son imo. The Queen is dutiful. Her son is as well. He did what was expected of him, with someone he had every reason to expect was an 'in house' choice.

I think there are ways to be dutiful without choosing to marry someone you're not entirely sure you love. And various royals have proven that; including the Queen.
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  #1527  
Old 06-05-2016, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by HistoryGirl View Post
I think there are ways to be dutiful without choosing to marry someone you're not entirely sure you love. And various royals have proven that; including the Queen.
I understand what you are saying, however I am not sure that everyone agrees that love should be the only reason to get married. Some people never fall in love in the way Diana imagined. Diana wanted romance and to be treated as the heroine of a romantic novel. Diana didn't understand that real love is compromise> it also takes a lot of work to maintain.

I think that much of the difference of opinion regarding Charles and Diana is that those who believe that Charles was completely at fault put more emphasis on the importance of romantic love in a marriage. Others, like me, believe that a marriage can be happy and successful without romantic love. Both views are legitimate.

However, what Diana failed to understand is that Charles fell in the second camp. It was obvious to anyone observing at the time that Charles was not just looking for someone he was 'in love' with (although that would have been a bonus), he was specifically looking for someone who would be a successful "Princess of Wales," and all that entailed. But just as importantly, he wanted a companion who shared his interest.

I tend to agree that Charles should have been more explicit with Diana. I think he told her what he was looking for but didn't specifically explain that he didn't love her to the same degree that she seemed to love him. I say "seemed to love him" because I don't think Diana truly loved Charles at that point. I think she had a crush on the Prince of Wales.
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  #1528  
Old 06-05-2016, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I understand what you are saying, however I am not sure that everyone agrees that love should be the only reason to get married. Some people never fall in love in the way Diana imagined. Diana wanted romance and to be treated as the heroine of a romantic novel. Diana didn't understand that real love is compromise> it also takes a lot of work to maintain.

But that's what I'm saying. He picked someone that did not want what he wanted. She also chose someone that did not want what she wanted. I'm not saying that either type of love is right or wrong. I'm saying they didn't want the same thing, which means they were incompatible. There's a difference between two people choosing to marry a companion instead of an infatuation and two people who married someone totally different than they thought to begin with.

I'm not saying that other royals who have had successful relationships married people that jumped out of some romance novel, just that they took the time and chose someone who saw marriage the same way. In my opinion, that's what makes a relationship successful, finding someone that has the same goal so that during the hard times compromise is possible. I don't believe that has to be sacrificed just because one of the partners is a royal.
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  #1529  
Old 06-05-2016, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by HistoryGirl View Post
But that's what I'm saying. He picked someone that did not want what he wanted. She also chose someone that did not want what she wanted. I'm not saying that either type of love is right or wrong. I'm saying they didn't want the same thing, which means they were incompatible. There's a difference between two people choosing to marry a companion instead of an infatuation and two people who married someone totally different than they thought to begin with.
I don't think I implied that you didn't make that point. Your previous post seemed to be a criticism of Charles for marrying someone he wasn't sure he loved. My post was a response to that. I truly don't think that romantic love was his primary goal and I don't think that that made him weak I absolutely agree with you that they wanted different things and were fundamentally incompatible.
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  #1530  
Old 06-05-2016, 12:04 PM
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It was a criticism for marrying someone he didn't love in the same way that she wanted to be loved. It's the same criticism I've made of Diana; marrying someone that didn't love her the way she wanted.

I can't even say what Charles believes is romantic love. Maybe his definition of romantic love is the type of companion that he thought Diana would be. But I wholeheartedly reject the idea that he either had to choose love or duty. That narrative to me has been completely over played. I just think he made a mistake.
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  #1531  
Old 06-05-2016, 12:06 PM
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I think it takes two to make or break a marriage. I don't think Charles was the main reason the marriage failed but I don't believe Diana was either.

I don't think Charles was used to compromise in his private life. As an adult he had been used to getting his own way, people agreeing with his pronouncements on life, having people rushing to anticipate his wishes, aides doing his research, a large number of servants and other staff making his life comfortable and easy.

He expected a very young woman to fit in with this, and, like his staff, anticipate his wishes and make him happy, perform the role of Princess of Wales and share his hobbies and interests. What about her hobbies and interests? Did they not count? What about him thinking about anticipating her wishes, (developing an interest in modern music for example) adopting a few of her interests in their future life together? Apparently that wasn't expected to be important.

What young woman would be happy and satisfied with the man they're engaged to sitting them down and saying "Well, I really don't love you in the same way as you seem to love me, and I don't love you as much! However, I want us to share our interests and I am sure that I will learn to love you after marriage. I am sure love will come on my part...." ?? Most young women, let alone 19/20 year olds would be absolutely devastated at those sort of revelations. In fact, I think most women of any age would walk out after a conversation on those lines!

I think Diana was in love with Charles, yes with the whole shebang around him, but with the man too. I don't think that too many 19yearolds in Western societies anticipate marriage without romantic love, stars bursting in the heavens, hearts churning, the feeling you'd do anything for the loved one. The sort of love in fact that Charles obviously felt and feels for Mrs Parker Bowles.

In that, I believe that Diana was absolutely typical of her contemporaries. And I tell you what, I was 27 when I got engaged and I wanted and expected and got that too.
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  #1532  
Old 06-05-2016, 12:52 PM
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Romance and courtship are part and parcel of the time period before marriage. Its the period of getting to know someone, finding out likes and dislikes and always putting the best foot forward and striving to be attractive in all ways to the other person. Idyllic period of hopes, dreams and making plans and a lot of times it ends up with feelings of love and caring for the other person and the marriage takes place.

Even couples that are deeply "in love" find out that marriage is another whole ball of wax. Its adjusting to living with the person and seeing that person in all their glory and their idiosyncrasies and how they are on bad days and those little nuances that drive one right up the wall. The important thing though is that no matter how much "in love" a couple might be, there are always going to be "I love you but I don't like you much right now" days and those "You liked my spinach and peanut casserole before we married" incidents and differences of opinions of how things should go. He wants a cabin in the woods and she wants the 5 star restaurant and a ballet in the city. Its how the couple deals with these times that makes or break a marriage.

The idyllic life of a Princess of Wales that Diana may have imagined turned out to be a totally different role in reality. She wanted more time with Charles but the job of being Prince of Wales didn't allow for that. Charles thought Diana understood what his role entailed and thought her demands unreasonable. Charles wanted to share books with her to discuss. She refused to read them. Little things like that can quickly form a gulf between partners. Charles loved hunting and playing polo and Diana didn't. Instead of bowing out and graciously telling Charles to go with his friends, she made the friends disappear.

Love is allowing the other person to be the best possible person that they can be. I think with Charles and Diana the differences were just too great to form a solid basis of friendship, communication, and compromise to put the marriage on solid ground. They needed to be best friends first and "get" each other more than they needed romance, rainbows and unicorns and that didn't happen. Their "I don't like you much right now" days were more frequent than the happy times they spent together as the years rolled by.

It happens.
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  #1533  
Old 06-05-2016, 01:16 PM
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Diana loved dancing and ballet. Did Charles go with her to any dance festivals, accompany her regularly to the ballet? She liked dining out with friends. Did Charles take her out with a group of her friends to restaurants? She had a crowd of close friends. Charles apparently considered them intellectual lightweights. Perhaps they were but it doesn't seem that he made much effort to find out and mingle with them, converse with them.

Marriage is indeed a two way street, and friendship is extremely important in relationships. That doesn't mean however that one person has to do all the fitting in, all the compromising, while the other partner just continues on with a way of life that they enjoy.
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  #1534  
Old 06-05-2016, 01:49 PM
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I think there was one time that Charles did go to the ballet with Diana. It was the time she "disappeared" only to show up on stage dancing for him. IIRC, Charles wasn't overly pleased with that. I'd have to dig for the references.

You're absolutely right that both parties need to compromise. Perhaps Charles thought that Diana would just go along with life as he knew and liked it. That right there is a disaster waiting to happen.

Perhaps others here would remember the times Charles spent time with Diana's friends more than I do. I'm drawing a blank here.
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  #1535  
Old 06-05-2016, 02:10 PM
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Marriage is indeed a two way street, and friendship is extremely important in relationships. That doesn't mean however that one person has to do all the fitting in, all the compromising, while the other partner just continues on with a way of life that they enjoy.
Indeed, and it seems that they both made the same mistakes and both expected the other to resolve it.

Both were wrong..
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  #1536  
Old 06-05-2016, 02:13 PM
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Indeed, and it seems that they both made the same mistakes and both expected the other to resolve it.

Both were wrong..
I agree. Neither really made the right choice from the get-go.
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  #1537  
Old 06-05-2016, 02:55 PM
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I think there was one time that Charles did go to the ballet with Diana. It was the time she "disappeared" only to show up on stage dancing for him. IIRC, Charles wasn't overly pleased with that. I'd have to dig for the references.

Perhaps others here would remember the times Charles spent time with Diana's friends more than I do. I'm drawing a blank here.
I don't know if he went to ballet wth her, much but I think he did sometimes, or he would not have been there the one time she danced with Sleep.
But I do tend to think that Charles thought that Di genuinely shared many of his interests, and she herself didn't have that many, back then. She liked music and dance, but she wasn't much of a reader.. She liked tennis and swimming and I think he liked swimming but wasn't into tennis. But he thought that they DID have a fair bit in common already because she seemed to have enjoyed being with him in the country, watching him shoot or fish, so I suppose he thought that she liked that sort of "tramping through the muddy woods and watching blood sports" kind of life...She liked music, and she was he thought willing to learn about the sort of stuff he enjoyed reading.. So he didn't really need to turn up on the tennis courts.
After all most couples don't have identical interests and they may enjoy say riding together but then maybe he will go to watch an intellectual play while she plays tennis or something.
I think that Di's friends were considered by him to be a bit lightweight and I think he didn't mind her spending time iwht them but he DID expect her to get to know HIS friends..
But then, as Princess and Queen she was going to have to entertain his circle, as their "court".. so I don't think that that was a terrible piece of behaviour on his part. THe big problem was that Diana had fooled herself and him AND I think many of his friends and family into thinking she really really DID like the country life.. and he was bewildered when she switched around abruptly and started to go like she hated the country, hated shooting and fishing, didn't like polo much etc.

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I think there are ways to be dutiful without choosing to marry someone you're not entirely sure you love. And various royals have proven that; including the Queen.
But the queen was very lucky. She fell in love with Philip when she was about 13 and I think she's always loved him.. What if she'd been single at her accession, hadn't met anyone she cared for? I'm sure she would have agreed to a marriage of affection if that had been seen as the way to go
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  #1538  
Old 06-05-2016, 03:13 PM
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And I'm sure that also would have been lovely in its own way...if her partner had wanted the same thing.
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  #1539  
Old 06-05-2016, 04:06 PM
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Dimbley's book is also responsible for the idea that Charles never loved Diana. All of Charles' and Diana's efforts to make themselves "better understood" didn't do either of them any good IMO.

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Trouble is that Di said that (and I beleive it is true) and charles said it.. but Di did SUCH a job of putting out the story that Charles never loved her, that he lured her into a fake marriage to have kids and cover up his affair with Cam and then was horrible and abusive to her - that some people who read that outpouring will never get over that impression..
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  #1540  
Old 06-05-2016, 04:12 PM
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I'm drawing a blank as well. I really can't remember any stories or reports about Charles spending time with Diana's friends, although he likely met them at events such as the ball before the wedding and the wedding reception. He might have made assumptions about them from stories that Diana told or from brief meetings with them.

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Perhaps others here would remember the times Charles spent time with Diana's friends more than I do. I'm drawing a blank here.
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