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  #1481  
Old 05-31-2016, 06:48 PM
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In terms of public persona, Diana was in a class by herself. She may have been experiencing turmoil on the inside but it was not evident once she "stepped onstage." Kate has a decent amount of star quality and people are interested in her but she also comes off as awkward and try hard (when it comes ).

Ies.
Yes I think that in many ways, perhaps the most important ways Kate is stronger than Diana. She doesn't have the neuroses and psychological problems.. I think she is a bit awkward with the RF, perhaps and I think that she's just NOT INTO the public appearances, but just does a modest average amount.. and the RF are happy with that, because they know she wont cause dramas or scandals.
And she has a MUCH stronger relationship with W than Di had with Charles.. for many reasons. They chose each other, they have interests in common, their personalities mesh well...They had years to get to know each other, and were intellectually and educationally equals. so she's a lot luckier.. and I thin the RF are happy with her midlde class sensible ways and quiet personality as opposed to Diana's mixture of perhaps aristocratic arrogance, (THe Spencers feeling themselves equal to the RF) but appallingly low self esteem...
I think that Diana was a star performer, once she got over her initial nerves and she did shine at mixing with people, ordinary people.. and perhaps their affection was all she had to make up for hte lack of what she felt was "enough" adoration in her home life.
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  #1482  
Old 05-31-2016, 07:03 PM
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That Diana was a "star performer" as you stated was precisely the problem. She was the spouse to the Prince of Wales but she mistook that for being alike Kelly McGillis next to Tom Cruise in Top Gun. just to name a movie from that era.

It seems Catherine, in contrary to the late Diana, and in contrary to Beatrice and Eugenie, avoids the celebbies when possible. She seems to enjoy time at Anmer Hall while Diana, time and time again seemed to long for constant confirmation that she was The Star. Exactly her "great performance" was her problem, a continuous tredmill in which media and public did demand for more, more, more.

With the criticism I have on Catherine, she at least makes the impression of being firm on her legs and a bit more distanced from shallow popularitu buzzz: who is in today and who is out tomorrow.
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  #1483  
Old 05-31-2016, 07:35 PM
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Yes people seem to think Diana's desire to be the star was an OK thing, it wasn't. Yes having a star is OK, ala Kate and William, but not one who takes away from the institution and everyone else. It seems she believed her hype and thought she was bigger than the RF.
I don't see craving love from strangers and making them your close confidants as being healthy, especially for someone like Diana who had difficult times maintaining relationships with friends and family. She for so little reassurance as a child that nothing Charles or the RF did would ever be enough but the masses could fill the void.
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  #1484  
Old 05-31-2016, 07:42 PM
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I think htat if you have that sort of star quality, you cant help it.. its just there and the question is how you use it. Diana DID have problems, yes, and that meant that in some ways she didn't use the star quality wisely ALL the time.. but overall I think she tired to. Yes, as time passed she DID use it against charles..but its hard to completely blame her.. Seh was lonely in the RF, but could not see a way of getting out, so she sought love and friendship elsewhere...yes she sought validation from outsiders, for what was missing in her own life.. but she DID genuinely help and reach out to many people, so I think she deserved the validation..
Will and Kate, neither of them IMO are stars, they have little charisma, and IMO not that much desire to do anything for the RF or people in general.. Its good that Kate understands that her role is to be W's support rather than to outshine him.. but then she is a lot luckier than Diana, She knows that Will loves her, they have a happy home life.. and in all honesty i dont think she COULD raelly outshine her husband if she did try...
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  #1485  
Old 05-31-2016, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Just looking back I question what was the rush? Why rush them to get married, why rush having a baby?! She was 20...why rush? Let her ease into things and then throw away the birth control.
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Read Stephen Barry’s book. He’ll give you the answer.
I've read the Barry book (and have it somewhere) but rather than rooting about, can you say, please? What was the rush about?
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  #1486  
Old 06-01-2016, 12:28 AM
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Let's keep the discussion on Charles and Diana and not William and Kate.
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  #1487  
Old 06-01-2016, 12:40 AM
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And part of being a royal is to put country first and i bet the Queen taught to his over sensitive son that personnal matters or feelings didn't belong to the royal duties.

Yeah Charles "should" or "could" : good advices ! But 30 years late... The propblem with the Charles and Diana case is that everybody wants to put some grain of salt from some personnal perspectives. But are we Royals ? Do we know the pressure lived by an heir to the throne ? I guess not. These people live in a completely different world from ours and the rules are simply not the same. Charles and Diana's wedding was arranged. Period. Is it shocking ? Not in the royal world. They both took lovers. Period. Is it shocking ? Not in the royal world.

Can we just stop seeing and judging this story with our "petits bourgeois" values. Royals are not like us. Period.
Wanted to highlight this. You are dead-on imo, Nico.
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  #1488  
Old 06-01-2016, 12:52 AM
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And I hope you read my reply to Nico, Lady Nimue, and considered that too.
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  #1489  
Old 06-01-2016, 12:57 AM
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And I hope you read my reply to Nico, Lady Nimue, and considered that too.
I did and made answer to you, as in the below that I quote.

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Sorry, Nico but Charles and Diana's marriage wasn't arranged, unless it was 'arranged' in defacto fashion by the media who were so eager to see Charles wed to a stunning and seemingly suitable young woman. However, members of the Royal family, Charles's parents, even his grandmother, would have been horrified to think that they were forcing him to the altar. The Queen, for example apparently refused to give advice to Charles as to what to do lest she should sway him.
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It was about as 'arranged' as it could be in the late 20th century. She was the girl next door. She grew up playing with his brothers. She was 'acceptable'. The other 'acceptable' girl had said 'no' just months before. It was time to 'get on with it'.
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  #1490  
Old 06-01-2016, 01:41 AM
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No, I disagree on that too, but I meant about the bits you highlighted which Nico wrote about, us the posters, not being able to judge Charles because of the supposed rarified atmosphere in which he and other royals live, so different from our own 'bourgeois ideas'!
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  #1491  
Old 06-01-2016, 04:35 PM
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Well I do think that charles' situation in regards to marriage isn't the same as other people's and it would be foolish to expect it to be. He had to find a wife with certain requirements, and at the time of his marriage, it was felt that his marraige must be a life long affair, so he had to take the long view...
He mgiht have preferred to stay single and have a relationship with Camilla, but his position meant that he had to get married.. and IMO it is foolish to disregard that or say "If he didn't love Diana fully he shoudln't have married her..." Love doesn't guarantee successful marriages anyway.
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  #1492  
Old 06-01-2016, 06:37 PM
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No, but lack of compatibility makes a tough job even harder.
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  #1493  
Old 06-01-2016, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
No, I disagree on that too, but I meant about the bits you highlighted which Nico wrote about, us the posters, not being able to judge Charles because of the supposed rarified atmosphere in which he and other royals live, so different from our own 'bourgeois ideas'!
Well, it is rarefied. How can you maintain it isn't?
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  #1494  
Old 06-01-2016, 11:57 PM
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No-one is denying that the way royals live is different from our own. As I explained in my former post, I and others don't necessarily 'have bourgeois ideas' about Charles's station. Many of us are very long term royal watchers indeed, and have quite a good idea about Royal lives and the pressure on them.

I also pointed out that there were several other royals, like Harald of Norway and Victoria of Sweden who did listen to their hearts, waited for years to marry and weren't prepared to wed anyone they weren't in love with.

Many subscribe to certain things here which may or may not be myths, such as 'Charles had to marry a virgin'. Did he? In that case, he was just toying with the several aristocratic women he dated before Diana then, women like Anna Wallace (with whom he was once caught in embarrassing circumstances at Balmoral by a stalking photographer and Charles fled into the bushes) and Davina Sheffield (he may well have married Davina if her boyfriend hadn't talked to the Press and in her case it was the actual living with a previous boyfriend that ditched her chances, not the state of her non-virginity.)

Charles knew very well that many of his girlfriends weren't virgins, but if he had been desperately in love with any of them (as he was with Camilla) and felt the time was right, he would have proposed, anyway.

In these other myths Charles 'had to marry'. Why? Unlike Felipe of Spain, who took a very different course and held out for the woman he loved, Charles wasn't an only son. He had three other siblings and his much younger brothers would, without doubt, eventually have married and had heirs.

So Charles ended up marrying a very young woman he didn't love for 'the sake of the country'? More like the pressure of the media who were in love with Diana got to him plus his father's letter. Charles, according to his friends, flew into a temper and chose to regard his father's letter begging him to not trifle with Diana's reputation as an ultimatum. None of the other people who saw the letter regarded it as such. One described it as 'very moderate'.

So, when it all comes down to it, Charles married this very young girl he barely knew and wasn't really heart-churningly in love with because the media were baying and he felt pressured by his father? That's excellent criteria on which to base your future happiness and that of your wife to be!

Others would regard Charles's decision to marry as that of a weak willed individual who didn't have the inner fortitude to ignore the Press and his father and say 'No, this isn't right for me and I won't do it'.

It's a huge shame, because if Charles had had the guts to take such a course what a lot of misery and heartache would have been avoided. I continue to hold to those views whether I'm accused of not understanding Royal life or not, (and I've been a Royal watcher with a library on all sorts of royals for decades.)
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  #1495  
Old 06-02-2016, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post

Others would regard Charles's decision to marry as that of a weak willed individual who didn't have the inner fortitude to ignore the Press and his father and say 'No, this isn't right for me and I won't do it'.
I agree with this. It is really difficult to stand by your heart's true desire when everyone seems to be steering you a certain way. I think we all like to believe that we would, but I'm not sure. Your example of Felipe's choice is spot on. The Spanish RF were quite unforgiving when it came to judging the females he dated and certainly the one he married. He somewhat faltered when it came to the others (who knows, perhaps they weren't 'the ones'), but he remained steadfast in his choice of a wife who was a divorcee and a middle-class journalist in a country where the Catholic Church is still an ingrained part of the culture.

Charles capitulated. Understandable, but still a mistake. I'm still not sure if Charles was madly in love with Camilla and wanted to marry her before she married APB. Perhaps he was or perhaps he just didn't want to marry her then. Either way, he rushed an important decision and it led to a lot of unhappiness for him. I think age has given him a bit more of a backbone and he seems happy so good for him.
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  #1496  
Old 06-02-2016, 11:14 AM
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IMO, the biggest factor in Charles deciding that Diana was the one he wanted to spend more time with is one we all know about that happened at Cowe's Week in 1980. Charles had just proposed marriage to Amanda Knatchbull and was turned down and Diana happened to have been invited along. It was then that Diana had the conversation with Charles about how despondent and sad Charles had looked at the funeral of Lord Louis Mountbatten in 1979. This triggered something that drew Diana to Charles. Perhaps he found a sympathetic ear. Perhaps he found a comforting shoulder. Diana came along right at the time when he really needed somebody most.

After Uncle Dickie was assassinated, the man Charles most went to for advice about things, Charles was like a rudderless ship floundering in the sea. He was in his early 30s and expected, as heir to the throne, to provide a heir and a spare and he needed to marry. I do think that if Lord Mountbatten had lived, he would have advised against the marriage to Diana. We'll never know.

Anyways, I did find a good article on Charles' search for a bride around that time and its a pretty interesting read. The man really didn't have much luck going for him finding a sincere, loving relationship at all.

Prince Charles and his relationships - Telegraph
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  #1497  
Old 06-02-2016, 02:45 PM
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That's quite a list.


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  #1498  
Old 06-02-2016, 06:03 PM
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I believe that one of the factors in Prince Charles' hurrying to marry Diana was the specter of The Duke of Windsor. Even Earl Mountbatten had concerns about Charles' going down the path of his late grand-uncle. There's a letter he wrote to Prince Charles about this, that he was afraid that Prince Charles was becoming selfish in the same way that the last Prince of Wales did (perhaps Mountbatten also had Prince Edward/David's penchant for married women in mind, although that wasn't explicitly stated). Added to the pressure on Prince Charles to marry because that was his duty, there would have been the fear (among those who knew about Camilla) that there'd be a repeat of the Abdication scandal. There were many, many people alive in 1980 who would have remembered that episode well and would have been relieved that Charles was taking a young woman seriously as a bridal contender and encouraged the marriage for that reason alone. I think that Prince Charles heeded Mountbatten's advice in what to look for in a bride and thought he saw in Diana the characteristics that fit that advice. Plus, he was physically attracted to her and liked her company. He had discussed his ideas about marriage in public years before, and he wasn't looking for a grand passion in his future marriage. He seemed to be looking for a good female friend whom he could grow to love and someone who could handle being Queen. By the time he proposed to Diana, he must have felt that she was that woman.
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  #1499  
Old 06-02-2016, 06:22 PM
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I believe that one of the factors in Prince Charles' hurrying to marry Diana was the specter of The Duke of Windsor. Even Earl Mountbatten had concerns about Charles' going down the path of his late grand-uncle. e could grow to love and someone who could handle being Queen. By the time he proposed to Diana, he must have felt that she was that woman.
Yes of course. HE was under pressure to marry. just because other people didn't see the letter form P Phil as a pressuring, does not mean that it wasn't. Im sure that if he had said to Phil and the queen,
"Why do I have to get married.. I have 2 brothers.. etc, "
He would have been told "You're the heir, you have to marry and produce children... get on with it."
THere was public pressure and there was pressure from the RF, because they DID remember the Abdication. During the 70s Im sure the RF were worrying that with left wing governments etc, and times changing -the monarchy might not be that secure, if the heir to the throne was seen as a ladies man who was living a selfish lifestyle and not wanting to settle down. or having a long standing affair with a married woman.. Of course in previous years, that would be quite Ok, before the Press were sniffing into every detail of a Princes' life.. but in the 1970s If the Affair with Cam was seen as overshadowing Charles' life, and stopping him from settling down, there would be a scandal that might destroy the Monarchy.
So he DID have to get married. I think theres no point in saying
"WHy didn't he act like Prince So and So." Other Royal families have different ways.. I beleive that Carl Gus of Sweden married a middle class girl for love but I gather that he has had other affairs..
Marriage for love does not guarantee happiness (or fidelity) - And Im sure the RF and Charles felt that a marriage for affection, friendship, to a woman of similar class who understood the royal life, would be better than hanging out for falling in love or marrying someone outside the usual circle..

THE problem was that altho Di was aristocratic, she did NOT know mcuh about Royal life, or what her job would be and she didn't really want to learn.. But she DID convince herself and C that she got on well with him, and his family and that she understood what she was getting herself into.. and that she shared their hobbies and interests.. but she didnt. And sorry to say it but I think she did have psychological issues, that might not have been to the forefront if she had lived quietly and married a man she had known better, after a few years of doing little jobs in London.. but when she married a man she didn't know well, got inot a high stress lifestyle with the press always around, she cracked to an extent.
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  #1500  
Old 06-02-2016, 11:54 PM
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Yes, re your last paragraph in particular. Diana got into this horrible cycle of stress and worry which lead to bulimic attacks, which lead to mood swings, which lead to Charles distancing himself, which lead to more stress, which lead to bulimic attacks, which lead to mood swings, etc. It just went around and around and they got further away from each other because they didn't know how to deal with each other's problems.
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