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  #1461  
Old 05-29-2016, 10:44 PM
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Well I can't entirely blame him for soem jealousy and bewilderment that Diana got more attention than him. He's human. He was used to be No 1 and she came along and was such an amazing media sucess all without opening her mouth realy. And I do think at first that he was worried for her rather than really jealous. His letters seem to bear out that he was feeling "how can ANYONE be stable with this sort of crazy attention? HOw can she live with the media absolutely following her every step. What happens wehn she slips up or they just get tired of her?"
and I think that he coudl see she wasn't 100% stable and it really worried him. Later I think he did get fed up, and I think others in the RF were the same, becuase she was still adored by the papers and public, but he knew her more difficult side...
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  #1462  
Old 05-29-2016, 11:23 PM
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Perhaps from the moment the media first found out who she was and started stalking her, it was all over. Charles couldn't dump her or he'd be callous and cruel and she would be damaged goods despite keeping her virtue intact.
Not everyone can be Prince Albert and have the strength to remain single until your in your 40s or 50s.
I don't think anything would have turned Diana off from dating Charles; in her mind if he likes fishing then she likes fishing, if he likes books she likes books, if he likes to garden she likes to garden. She's like the high school girl with her first boyfriend.
Charles WAS Diana's first steady boyfriend. And she was a very young 19.
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  #1463  
Old 05-29-2016, 11:46 PM
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Well I can't entirely blame him for soem jealousy and bewilderment that Diana got more attention than him. He's human. He was used to be No 1 and she came along and was such an amazing media sucess all without opening her mouth realy. And I do think at first that he was worried for her rather than really jealous. His letters seem to bear out that he was feeling "how can ANYONE be stable with this sort of crazy attention? HOw can she live with the media absolutely following her every step. What happens wehn she slips up or they just get tired of her?"
and I think that he coudl see she wasn't 100% stable and it really worried him. Later I think he did get fed up, and I think others in the RF were the same, becuase she was still adored by the papers and public, but he knew her more difficult side...
Your right he did get fed up, my problem is with the idea of "the marriage was doomed because Charles was jealous because Diana was so popular" theory. To be sure the popularity goes both ways, it was good for the royals but it was also shallow. Diana could have given a speech on the discovery of blue men on Mars and the front headline was going to be Diana wore a blue dress with blue shoes and her hair worn up to give some speech about space.
If they were better at it they could have figured out some way to balance it better like JFK did with the OK obsession with Jackie not getting in the way of his work.

I do think they got fed up with it but I can't blame them or blame her for being fascinating. What I do blame is I'd they treated her bad because of that and if she purposely fed the media fascination to pull attention from them onto her.
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  #1464  
Old 05-30-2016, 04:48 AM
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I dont think that they treated her unkindly because of it.. but the more she didn't fit in, the more her bulimia and lack of liking for Their way of life showed up in private, I think that the RF being only human got fed up with her always stealing the limelight from them. And later on her stealing the limelight became much less innocent...
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  #1465  
Old 05-30-2016, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Charles WAS Diana's first steady boyfriend. And she was a very young 19.
She was, that was the trouble. She was as Nick Soames said, very very immature for her age. He said it was like talking to a very young teenager.. I'd say more like 15 than 19 or 20...And she had got issues, not her fault but I think that once she got married, she wanted a lot of attention. Perhaps if charles had been able to spend a few years being a very on tap husband, and maybe Di had had psychiatric help to help her get used gradually to royal life and married life..(ie neithter of them had a full programme of work to do then), she might have gradually "grown up" and adjusted...
And i think too if Camill had been completely out of the picture. But even if she had been I think that Charles once he realised how volatile Diana was, was going to think longingly of her at times.. and Diana I would say would alwasy be a bit jealous and feel that he was thinking of Camilla EVEN If he wasnt...
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  #1466  
Old 05-30-2016, 07:46 PM
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Charles has done an enormous amount of good in his lifetime, but he's never quite understood that a man in a suit doesn't (usually) get the same amount of attention from the crowds as a pretty, beautifully dressed young woman. Shallow but true. As can be seen even now from the lesser amount of publicity William usually gets from sole engagements than he does when Kate accompanies him. Charles's inability to grasp this did lead to jealousy and resentment eventually, and Diana, at least at first, felt bad about it.
Interesting comparison you are making. Fact is, from what I can see in all the video, Diana very early on allowed the crowd response to her to go to her head. Catherine has not, and in fact makes every effort to maintain by William's side when they are out-and-about together.

Diana did not defer to Charles. In fact, she openly upstaged him. Amazing thing to watch. I view it as partly to do with the fact that Diana was immature, yes, but also (and more importantly) aristocratic. She had an innate sense of herself as being on a par with Charles from her upper-class lineage and upbringing, something Catherine does not have. (Quite the reverse, Catherine must walk a more careful walk by the very reason she is a 'commoner').

I do agree that a woman generates a great deal of interest, but a handsome, athletically trim, and well dressed man has the same effect, if he is also warm and charming.

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Sorry, Nico but Charles and Diana's marriage wasn't arranged, unless it was 'arranged' in defacto fashion by the media who were so eager to see Charles wed to a stunning and seemingly suitable young woman. However, members of the Royal family, Charles's parents, even his grandmother, would have been horrified to think that they were forcing him to the altar. The Queen, for example apparently refused to give advice to Charles as to what to do lest she should sway him.
It was about as 'arranged' as it could be in the late 20th century. She was the girl next door. She grew up playing with his brothers. She was 'acceptable'. The other 'acceptable' girl had said 'no' just months before. It was time to 'get on with it'.

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Just looking back I question what was the rush? Why rush them to get married, why rush having a baby?! She was 20...why rush? Let her ease into things and then throw away the birth control.
Exactly so. And imagine had he waited! Marrying closer to his 50's, we'd be cooing over his babies rather than William's. Given the longevity of the Queen, it would make more sense, plus the whole sad drama would have been avoided.
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  #1467  
Old 05-30-2016, 08:34 PM
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I think the Family thought the hoopla with Diana would die off after they got married ...it just increased.

I also think the Family realized after the disaster of tossing Diana into the deep end (even if not done intentionally) there were some mistakes made and this is a big reason (besides the fact William is not the heir) they have made it a point to go to the other end of the spectrum with W&K. Long time developing the relationship and then after marrying a long slow entrance into royal life/duties etc.

I think we all see which one is working out better.


I don't think Kate has any less sense of her worth than Diana did (for all her upper class pedigree). IMO she is much more sure of herself and confident of her value. Certainly we heard the reports of back when they were dating her responding to a comment about how she was lucky to be with him or to have him...and she responded he was lucky to have her (and I quite agree).


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  #1468  
Old 05-31-2016, 01:07 AM
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Kate doesn't get the hoopla and the massive crowds for her engagements Diana did. Crowds of more than 100,000 in Brisbane alone. On one engagement in Australia on walk-about, Diana shook an estimated 6,000 hands That time has passed. Also there is an advantage in being heir to the heir. Charles, as Prince of Wales, HAD to have a wife who hit the ground running from the beginning.

Diana didn't make up to the crowds or enjoy the publicity at all in her first years. On the first official tour (to Wales) she wept in the car between engagements, convinced that she was doing things wrong (according to Bedell Smith and Diana's own recounting) and not wishing to face the huge crowd turnout again. She had to be persuaded out by Charles.

Diana feared making public appearances on her own early in her marriage. She switched on the Christmas lights in Regent St requiring a three sentence speech and was extremely nervous. "I was sh-- scared" she said later.

In Australia the Diana craze continued unabated. However Diana recalled "All you could hear was 'Oh she's on the other side'....Now if you're a man, and like my husband, a proud man, you mind about that if you hear it every day for four weeks.' In an April letter written to a friend Diana stated that they were supporting each other about this.
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  #1469  
Old 05-31-2016, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Kate doesn't get the hoopla and the massive crowds for her engagements Diana did. Crowds of more than 100,000 in Brisbane alone. On one engagement in Australia on walk-about, Diana shook an estimated 6,000 hands That time has passed. Also there is an advantage in being heir to the heir. Charles, as Prince of Wales, HAD to have a wife who hit the ground running from the beginning.
I can remember reading about those turnouts and they were humungous. One thing I'm glad of though is that William and Kate don't get those kind of crowds and I would think they would kind of try to discourage them because of the high level of security needed in these days and these times. The worldwide threat of terrorism in the 80s is nowhere near what it is today.

Didn't Charles joke in Australia too that he needed two wives? One for each side of the street? Its vague in my mind but I just can't remember where it was.
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  #1470  
Old 05-31-2016, 02:35 AM
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There was a campaign throughout Britain of IRA bombings through the 1980's, though.

Yes, I think Charles did make a joke like that at the time, as well as saying things to the crowds on his side like 'You'll just have to put up with me.'

I went to Sydney when William and Kate were on their Oz tour with George, but the crowds, though large in some places, weren't spectacular. I can still remember waiting with a crowd for Diana to arrive for an evening engagement in Melbourne on her first tour of Aus/NZ with Charles.
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  #1471  
Old 05-31-2016, 03:02 AM
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I largely agree with Curry.. I don't think that Diana consciously upstaged Charles at first. She just had a special quality, and attracted people. I think it bewildered her as much as it did Charles. I agree Nimue that Kate is probably trying NOT to upstage Will, she knows she's the "second banana" but I think that Diana couldn't help being loved by the crowds...
I think that yes the RF have been more careful about new wives joining the RF now and are giving them a longer "slow introduction"..
But at the time of the 80s Charles was a very busy and visible POW and his wife was supposed to be seen with him and support him.. and she did, I think that yes later, she did play up more and used her popularity against him and the RF but not at first
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  #1472  
Old 05-31-2016, 03:07 AM
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There was a campaign through Britain of IRA bombings through the 1980's, though.

Yes, I think Charles did make a joke like that at the time, as well as saying things to the crowds on his side like 'You'll just have to put up with me.'

I went to Sydney when William and Kate were on their Oz tour with George, but the crowds, though large in some places, weren't spectacular. I can still remember waiting with a crowd for Diana to arrive for an evening engagement in Melbourne on her first tour of Aus/NZ with Charles.
Snap! Yep, the IRA was still a very real threat in the 80s. Remember they'd only murdered Lord Mountbatten in 1979 and the memory was very fresh. I recall having some very heated conversations with an Irish woman in Sydney in the early 80s.

I remember when I saw Diana and Charles drive around the corner at Narrabeen during their Bicentenary tour in 1988. We were out for a drive and just happened upon the spot where they would pass. It was easy to know something was afoot because there were police gathering and starting to put up barricades to control the flow of traffic. Once we learned what was happening, we waited, and it could have been up to an hour, and in that time quite a large crowd of passers-by stopped to watch. And that was just a happenstance occasion. I cannot imagine the same sort of thing happening if William and Kate were driving past.

I've wandered off the track. Here is Charles saying he needed two wives:
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  #1473  
Old 05-31-2016, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
I don't think Kate has any less sense of her worth than Diana did (for all her upper class pedigree). IMO she is much more sure of herself and confident of her value. Certainly we heard the reports of back when they were dating her responding to a comment about how she was lucky to be with him or to have him...and she responded he was lucky to have her (and I quite agree).


LaRae
I actually think Kate has more confidence in herself than Diana ever did. I think the problem with Diana always needing someone to reassure her and be the center of everyone's world came precisely because of her low self esteem. Not having a stable family life probably did quite a number on her psyche and it resulted in an insecure woman. I think she was someone who was naturally shy and unsure, but the adulation of the people and the media as well as age made her more confident as she grew older.

I mean waking up and reading about how perfect and beautiful you are will do wonders for the self-esteem, I'm sure. But those are generally empty compliments. Maybe I'm wrong, but Charles doesn't seem the type to walk around worshipping anyone and I think Diana wanted that type of attention from him in particular. That probably served to counteract some of the adulation that came from strangers.

I think Kate had a lot of support from her family and was able to gain self-esteem from a young age because of the strong support system she had. Unfortunately, I don't think Diana was that lucky. While I do think that she is still somewhat afraid to put a foot wrong in terms of her role as duchess, I don't think she is insecure about her relationship with William the way that Diana was insecure about her relationship with Charles; thank God.
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  #1474  
Old 05-31-2016, 01:57 PM
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Diana did seem uncomfortable around official occasions early on and didn't really come into her own unless she had an opportunity to talk to people. I think that she really craved the human connection in her work as opposed to being looked at by crowds. It's as though work with people took her out of that insecure bubble that she lived in otherwise. Lord Deedes said as much about the Angola trip. He didn't have a great opinion of her until he saw her on her mission there. Then his view of her as a campaigner changed considerably. She needed to feel useful, as we all do.

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I actually think Kate has more confidence in herself than Diana ever did. I think the problem with Diana always needing someone to reassure her and be the center of everyone's world came precisely because of her low self esteem. Not having a stable family life probably did quite a number on her psyche and it resulted in an insecure woman. I think she was someone who was naturally shy and unsure, but the adulation of the people and the media as well as age made her more confident as she grew older.
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  #1475  
Old 05-31-2016, 02:24 PM
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In terms of public persona, Diana was in a class by herself. She may have been experiencing turmoil on the inside but it was not evident once she "stepped onstage." Kate has a decent amount of star quality and people are interested in her but she also comes off as awkward and try hard.

As dazzling as Diana was I don't know if the British Royal Family, then or now, needs a star that bright. I think on paper Kate is better: better marriage, better support system, fewer issues, but I still think that there is something not quite right or lacking with the Cambridges.
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  #1476  
Old 05-31-2016, 02:31 PM
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I always remember this quote from George Michael, who knew Diana.

“I think Diana would have been incredibly happy for William and Kate.

“And I think she’d also be really, really pleased that William has met and fallen in love with someone who has the strength of character to be able to deal with the sorts of things that she couldn’t.”


George Michael: 'Kate can cope with fame, she's stronger than Princess Diana' | Daily Star
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  #1477  
Old 05-31-2016, 02:53 PM
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I actually think Kate has more confidence in herself than Diana ever did. I think the problem with Diana always needing someone to reassure her and be the center of everyone's world came precisely because of her low self esteem. Not having a stable family life probably did quite a number on her psyche and it resulted in an insecure woman. I think she was someone who was naturally shy and unsure, but the adulation of the people and the media as well as age made her more confident as she grew older.

I mean waking up and reading about how perfect and beautiful you are will do wonders for the self-esteem, I'm sure. But those are generally empty compliments. Maybe I'm wrong, but Charles doesn't seem the type to walk around worshipping anyone and I think Diana wanted that type of attention from him in particular. That probably served to counteract some of the adulation that came from strangers.

I think Kate had a lot of support from her family and was able to gain self-esteem from a young age because of the strong support system she had. Unfortunately, I don't think Diana was that lucky. While I do think that she is still somewhat afraid to put a foot wrong in terms of her role as duchess, I don't think she is insecure about her relationship with William the way that Diana was insecure about her relationship with Charles; thank God.
I agree with your comments History Girl. TBH I'm not sure how well Diana would have coped with the type of scrutiny that public figures deal with today via social media.
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  #1478  
Old 05-31-2016, 03:04 PM
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Probably not very well TLLK. And Queen Claude, I think the comment on the BRF is spot on. They're not looking for another Diana. They have always been more comfortable with royals who toe the line and just go with the flow.
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  #1479  
Old 05-31-2016, 04:29 PM
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No I do not believe that they are looking for a "star." After the tumultuous 1990's, I believe that they're pleased calmer approach with the Countess of Wessex and Duchesses of Cornwall and Cambridge.
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  #1480  
Old 05-31-2016, 05:58 PM
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As for Diana not having support, from all that I have read, she pushed away all 'help'. It's a pretty complicated story, fraught with multi-layered motivations. She seemed quite happy not being meddled with (supported) while she conducted her own affairs.
Exactly her letters to Raine prior to her marriage proves she had plenty of help. Her letters to Raine, IMO, are clearly written about Frances (and not Camilla as the media wants to sell.) Diana had spent Christmas at Althrop and then was planning to visit Australia to visit her mother. It appears from the letters when she was getting along with her mother she hated Raine and vise versa. At the time of her engagement she was close to Raine but needed her mother for the wedding or just for appearance’s sake.

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In many ways, Charles was not in a position to make such life decisions then. He needed space and protection from such pressure, none of which he got. He was easy prey.

Definitely.

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I really don't know how etched in stone it was back then in the early 80s that Charles' bride would have to be a virgin. Only thing that I can recall reading is that before the wedding, Diana did visit a gynecologist but that was mostly to determine whether or not she could bear children.
This is what I also recall. The rest is just an urban myth.

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Charles WAS Diana's first steady boyfriend. And she was a very young 19.
This is not true. Diana had several boyfriends prior to Charles. Her first steady boyfriend was at 17.
This according to several people and the restaurant owner where Diana frequented.
Some list four pre-Charles as serious/steady relationships and several others she dated.

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I think the RF did think it would look bad, if Charles went out for a long time ... and then gave her the push after say a year.
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Perhaps from the moment the media first found out who she was and started stalking her, it was all over. Charles couldn't dump her or he'd be callous and cruel and she would be damaged goods....
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And I believe that the RF were concerned that Diana might suffer to an extent if the relationship dragged on any longer. I think if he'd dated her for a year, and then said in effect "I've realised she's not suitable" I think he'd have been attacked in the tabloids as a heartless older man toying with the affections of a much younger woman. ..
Denville and XeniaCasaraghi I agree with your comments.
They actually dated for more than a year. It is in Dimbleby’s book. According to Diana they were only alone 13 times before they married but that does not include the times they were together at Sandringham, Balmoral etc.

I believe the reason for Prince Philip’s letter was because the media was in a rush for the wedding and if the wedding was not announced then they would go on digging for reasons for the delay. The media needed to keep busy and sale stories, if no royal wedding story and all the trappings then backgrounds into Diana and the Spencers and the Fermoys. Most of the media sidestepped Diana’s background and her family’s background.

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Just looking back I question what was the rush? Why rush them to get married, why rush having a baby?!
She was 20...why rush? Let her ease into things and then throw away the birth control.
Read Stephen Barry’s book. He’ll give you the answer.

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I think the Family thought the hoopla with Diana would die off after they got married ...it just increased.

I also think the Family realized after the disaster of tossing Diana into the deep end (even if not done intentionally) there were some mistakes made and this is a big reason. Long time developing the relationship and then after marrying a long slow entrance into royal life/duties etc.
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Crowds of more than 100,000 in Brisbane alone. On one engagement in Australia on walk-about, Diana shook an estimated 6,000 hands That time has passed. Also there is an advantage in being heir to the heir. Charles, as Prince of Wales, HAD to have a wife who hit the ground running from the beginning.
This is a myth. Diana was not thrown to the wolves or in the deep end nor hit the ground running.

Her first overseas tour was not until 1983. Her third year into the marriage. See Stephen Barry’s book or old copies of the CC or O’Donovan.
The reason for the large crowds was they wanted to see the wife of the Prince of Wales. It had been over 80 years since a future monarch and spouse last visit Australia.

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In fact, after meeting her, I believe Camilla called her a "mouse".
This is actually part of the Diana myth.

Camilla never called Diana a mouse.

In February 1985, Andrew Morton wrote a favorable article about Charles in the Daily Star after C&D had a public argument in Liechtenstein and used the phrase the ‘mouse that roared’ about Charles.

In October 1985, Tina Brown rewrote Andrew Morton’s article and made it about Diana using the same phrase to describe Diana. Tina’s version was published in Vanity Fair.
(This is on page 134 of Diana: Story of a Princess by Tim Clayton, Phil Craig.)
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