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  #1201  
Old 07-11-2015, 10:09 PM
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Yes, I remember reading that in "The Diana Chronicles." I'm not yet convinced that Camilla didn't have a hold on Charles' emotions throughout Charles and Diana's marriage, even if there wasn't a physical relationship until 1986. She probably wasn't the threat that Diana thought she was, but I can understand why Diana would feel threatened.

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Several people, including Princess Margaret, talked privately about the hold that Camilla Parker Bowles had on the Prince of Wales at the time of the royal wedding.
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  #1202  
Old 07-11-2015, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Unless Diana had some kind of foreknowledge that the tapes would be public, I don't think she'd have pegged Camilla publicly on that basis. Andrew Morton said that the most that could be legally said about Charles and Camilla in "Her True Story" was that they were close friends and that Camilla was Charles' 'confidant.' That book was serialized in the "Sunday Times" in June of 1992. The Charles and Camilla tape wasn't published until January 1993, in Australia's "New Idea" magazine. Other than this little point, I agree with the response you gave to my post. Diana and Dale Tryon seemed to have developed some kind of allegiance by the late 80s, and so there was no need to include her in the cast of "Her True Story."
Yes, Kanga was replaced by Alexandra Shân "Tiggy" Legge-Bourke. She was the original woman she claimed Charles wanted to marry after divorcing her. She was terrified that her children would love her more.

I always found it odd that normally sensible people overlooked what Diana wrote about Camilla in "Her True Story" after she changed the "villainess" for the Panorama interview.
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  #1203  
Old 07-11-2015, 10:56 PM
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IMO Charles allowed Camilla to intrude into his marriage by remaining her close friend instead of keeping her at a distance in the early years when Diana was so young/immature and struggling to figure out how to go about things.

The physical affair may not have started up again till the mid 80's but I think the emotional 'affair' never really ended. You aren't giving/accepting presents from other women like that around the time of your wedding if you have broken all ties.



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  #1204  
Old 07-12-2015, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
IMO Charles allowed Camilla to intrude into his marriage by remaining her close friend instead of keeping her at a distance in the early years when Diana was so young/immature and struggling to figure out how to go about things.

The physical affair may not have started up again till the mid 80's but I think the emotional 'affair' never really ended. You aren't giving/accepting presents from other women like that around the time of your wedding if you have broken all ties.



LaRae
Absolutely. And emotional betrayal is just as bad, whether they were at that time physically connected, but no one can prove otherwise. I, think, he never realized that it would end in the mess it did. Mistresses were an accepted fact in his circle. S9ince, the death of Diana, Charles' spin machine has done an excellent job turning Diana into a loon and Camilla his pal.
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  #1205  
Old 07-12-2015, 12:27 AM
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I really do think Charles would of married Camilla if he could of, there was just no way during the social climate of the time he could ...she had too much of a past.

I think Camilla, no matter how she felt, knew this and she turned her attention elsewhere for a time but I think she always had some form of contact with Charles. I would not be surprised to learn she was physically involved with him off and on prior to Diana appearing on the scene...she knew he had to marry and have heirs.

I think it's obvious Charles didn't love Diana as he loved Camilla...it was a different type of relationship/love. If Diana had been more mature/confident she and Charles could of had a pretty happy marriage...she might of been able to keep his attention. I don't think Charles had a clue on how to deal with her after the real trouble started.


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  #1206  
Old 07-12-2015, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
Andrew, not Peter
Ooopsie! All fixed. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Several people, including Princess Margaret, talked privately about the hold that Camilla Parker Bowles had on the Prince of Wales at the time of the royal wedding. Correspondents from the U.S. over in London for the nuptials, picked up on the gossip though not one word of it was broadcast. Diana had an emotional intelligence. At the time leading up to her wedding she could sense, IMO, that Charles wasn't head over heels for her and was in fact still in thrall to another woman.
If Diana really had 'emotional intelligence' (and I believe she did) then she knew sure-as-shootin' what Charles was or was not feeling, not so? With all that 'emotional intelligence' why was she blindsided? It's quite possible, given her character, that she started the marriage thinking she could control Charles and have her way. Just maybe, she went too far. At this point, we can float anything, but like in Literature Class, we must have supporting evidence for our view. Diana was willful, stubborn and spoilt. That we know from many sources.

Of course he wasn't 'head over heels for her'. He knew that. Diana (if she was honest with that 'emotional intelligence' of hers) knew that. (It was the same for her, I'll bet). But he cared and he was in that state that many marriages begin in: he was 'in lust'. As was she. It's something.

So we joust with 'airy-lightenings'. It's an impossible realm. Anything can be charged. No real debate can ensue. This is the squishy, boggy area. We could be in a Literature Class.

There was a slight. Diana had declared to Charles that Dale and Camilla should not attend the wedding. (According to one biographer, because Charles admitted during an intimate moment with Diana, the two women's position as former lovers). Charles would not allow that level of slight. A compromise was reached. Dale and Camilla were invited to the wedding at the church, but not to the palace breakfast afterwards. This caused comment.

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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
IMO Charles allowed Camilla to intrude into his marriage by remaining her close friend instead of keeping her at a distance in the early years when Diana was so young/immature and struggling to figure out how to go about things.
Did not Diana ban his circle of friends? Did not Charles comply? Camilla was not around for the early years of the marriage. Camilla was kept at a distance. Diana even banished Charles' dog. Servants were forced to leave. There was a clean sweep. By any standards, it was pretty extreme. There is no evidence that Camilla intruded.

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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
The physical affair may not have started up again till the mid 80's but I think the emotional 'affair' never really ended. You aren't giving/accepting presents from other women like that around the time of your wedding if you have broken all ties. LaRae
"Emotional affair" is a biased phrase. Charles and Camilla were friends. And here we are. This is the stuff of novels, of plays, of conjecture. Human nature. There is no 'truth' here. Only facts, subject to interpretation. Character. Known habits. Motivations and intentions are difficult to assess. Inevitably, there will be different riffs on the theme.

BTW Wikipedia is proving to be an amazing read, like regarding 'Sqidgygate'. I am not a scholar of Diana. I've 'only just' started reading (this summer) some of the more frothy, gossipy books about her. What a ride. Wow.
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  #1207  
Old 07-12-2015, 01:04 AM
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One of the serious biographies of Diana is by Sarah Bradford. She started her research being highly cynical about Diana but changed her mind somewhat during the course of her inquiries. I think that both Sarah Bradford and Tina Brown have written very good books. Bradford has a more scholarly style and is known for writing serious biographies. I also have her biographies of George VI and the present Queen.
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  #1208  
Old 07-12-2015, 03:00 AM
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Thank you, Moonmaidan. I've read one of these biographies. Not sure which.

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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
I really do think Charles would of married Camilla if he could of, there was just no way during the social climate of the time he could ...she had too much of a past.
There's no evidence for that. The evidence is that Camilla was keen on Andrew Parker-Bowels. He was the 'catch' that every girl was eyeing. Charles was being set up for Amanda Knatchbull. As early as 1974 Charles was pursuing that arrangement per his uncle, Lord Mountbattan. That pairing was the background noise throughout the 70's, even though he had 2 or 3 significant loves during that time.

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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
I think Camilla, no matter how she felt, knew this and she turned her attention elsewhere for a time but I think she always had some form of contact with Charles. I would not be surprised to learn she was physically involved with him off and on prior to Diana appearing on the scene...she knew he had to marry and have heirs.
Camilla and her husband were part of the royal circle of friends. Charles was the godfather of one of their children. They were friends. The way that friendship is made into something seamy is disquieting to me. How easily one's life can be trashed by innuendo. Very sad.

This is also the spin that I read a lot, but it's based on nothing substantive. If you look at Charles' activities during the 70's, it seems unlikely. As best as I can make out this perspective stems from a need to place Camilla as an undue influence in the marriage per Diana's story. Diana colors the retrospective.

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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
I think it's obvious Charles didn't love Diana as he loved Camilla...it was a different type of relationship/love.
Conjecture. I think Charles did love Diana. His reaction to her death says so. Comparing love qualitatively is never worthwhile imo. That's what snagged Diana.

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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
If Diana had been more mature/confident she and Charles could of had a pretty happy marriage...she might of been able to keep his attention.
Absolutely. I agree. But she would have had to extend herself. Read the books. Make an effort to engage with his interests. The usual.

It would have also helped if she had not misled Charles into thinking she shared his passion for the country life at Balmoral.

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I don't think Charles had a clue on how to deal with her after the real trouble started. LaRae
He tried. For quite some time. I believe him when he speaks of the marriage irretrievably breaking down. Charles doesn't have to be a paragon. As best as I can make out, the behavior was so extreme that he retreated emotionally, when nothing he did could appease her. I think she exhausted him. I think she exhausted herself. Poor thing.
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  #1209  
Old 07-12-2015, 04:58 AM
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Penny Junor is no admirer of Diana's but wrote sympathetically of Charles and Camilla's 'friendship' in 'Charles, Victim or Villain'.
'The friendship only became physical again after Laura's birth (in 1979) long after Camilla realised that the philanderer she had pursued for seven years before her marriage had continued in much the same way after..'

Sarah Bradford in her biography of Diana talking of Andrew PB 'He condoned his wife's relationship with Charles..they had an 'open marriage'. 'The queen was told of the regiment's disquiet about her son's affair with the wife of a brother officer by her former Private Secretary'.

It is pretty clear that in the years before Charles became engaged to Diana he and Camilla PB were intimate. I've already posted that Princess Margaret and members of London Society knew that Charles was in thrall to Camilla otherwise it wouldn't have been mentioned.

Diana did have forebodings, further emphasised by Charles's insistence on giving Camilla a 'farewell gift' and being alone with Camilla when he gave it. He also told her of his relationship with Mrs PB, though he stated it had ended. These weren't figments of Diana's imagination. She was a 20 year old who wanted her future husband's love. As she went down the aisle there was Mrs Parker Bowles and her son in the cathedral. Some start to a marriage!
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  #1210  
Old 07-12-2015, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Penny Junor is no admirer of Diana's but wrote sympathetically of Charles and Camilla's 'friendship' in 'Charles, Victim or Villain'.
'The friendship only became physical again after Laura's birth (in 1979) long after Camilla realised that the philanderer she had pursued for seven years before her marriage had continued in much the same way after.'

Sarah Bradford in her biography of Diana talking of Andrew PB 'He condoned his wife's relationship with Charles..they had an 'open marriage'. 'The queen was told of the regiment's disquiet about her son's affair with the wife of a brother officer by her former Private Secretary'.

It is pretty clear that in the years before Charles became engaged to Diana he and Camilla PB were intimate. I've already posted that Princess Margaret and members of London Society knew that Charles was in thrall to Camilla otherwise it wouldn't have been mentioned.
It is not clear, from what you have quoted, that Charles and Camilla were intimate 'for years' before Diana. Not at all.

I see where the 'evidence' for that view is coming from. Interesting. What you have done is proved my point, that during the 70's Charles and Camilla were not a pair. If they got together in 1979, after August, we know what that would have been about (potentially consolation around Mountbattan's death).

As for the Parker-Bowles marriage being a disillusionment for Camilla, as you (or the author) seems to suggest, it's not borne out in other ways. Had that marriage not been subject to the tabloid harassment in the 1990's, there is every reason to believe the marriage would have sailed on. The marriage was never 'in trouble', according to what I have read.

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Diana did have forebodings, further emphasised by Charles's insistence on giving Camilla a 'farewell gift' and being alone with Camilla when he gave it. He also told her of his relationship with Mrs PB, though he stated it had ended. These weren't figments of Diana's imagination. She was a 20 year old who wanted her future husband's love. As she went down the aisle there was Mrs Parker Bowles and her son in the cathedral. Some start to a marriage!
That whole gift thing comes from Diana. I believe it is posited in various quarters as one of Diana's fabrications. I don't know the truth of it, I am just saying that a great deal of what Diana contended has been shown to be false. This was one.

If Diana was really that unsure, then she shouldn't have been so eager for the marriage. She was very much one of the young women circling Charles. She was acquainted with Amanda Knatchbull and Sarah Armstrong-Jones. If it is as you say, as you have quoted, then Diana knew all this. She knew she was entering a royal marriage that was effectively being arranged. She did her part to interest Charles and succeeded. I don't have much sympathy for her (apparent) upset.

In the end, we all have the brush we are painting with. In my case, I see Diana as someone who was pretty wild in her behavior in her marriage from the get-go, taking lovers pretty fast into the marriage, and in general behaving as though she were above consequences. I've already mentioned the ski-slope shenanigans with Sarah, the Duchess of York. There was another bizarre incident at Ascot, when Diana and Sarah were poking people in the crowd (I guess in the Royal Enclosure) with their umbrellas (in their behinds). Wt....? (I don't swear so I leave the third letter to your imagination ). I'm sorry, I cannot accept that Diana was some poor, put-upon child-bride crushed by the 'ol'meanie Charles, et al. It doesn't work for me. The evidence isn't there. Just isn't.

I'll tell you what I told my mother: I saw Diana as a jerk. If I had a friend who behaved like that? They wouldn't be my friend. That's how I felt watching her (the little I did) growing up. You can understand why Queen Silvia of Sweden was leagues beyond what one saw going on with Diana and why she was the royal I admired. Queen Silvia was pure cream. Real class imo. That's the way it was for me. I admit to that childhood bias. It is what it is.

I do think I have learned to be compassionate regarding Diana's afflictions, but more I will not grant her. She was not an innocent. She just wasn't. JMO.

I think I've talked enough about Diana. I don't have all the facts. Most of you know far more than me about her. So I'll just let it rest from my end. I do appreciate the conversation, though. I've learned some things and I'll definitely keep reading until I've had my fill (which may not be too far down the road ).
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  #1211  
Old 07-12-2015, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
IMO Charles allowed Camilla to intrude into his marriage by remaining her close friend instead of keeping her at a distance in the early years when Diana was so young/immature and struggling to figure out how to go about things.

The physical affair may not have started up again till the mid 80's but I think the emotional 'affair' never really ended. You aren't giving/accepting presents from other women like that around the time of your wedding if you have broken all ties.

LaRae
Totally agree!

I wonder if he though her youth and starry eyed naivete would make her blind to it. Does he or Camilla ever contemplate on this part of their past? What a massive impact that made.
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  #1212  
Old 07-12-2015, 12:39 PM
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Totally agree!

I wonder if he though her youth and starry eyed naivete would make her blind to it. Does he or Camilla ever contemplate on this part of their past? What a massive impact that made.

I think he had enormous pressure to marry, he liked Diana, she was young and adoring, beautiful and she wanted to take care of people (to include him)...what's not to like? He was fond of her and perhaps even loved her in an affectionate way (we all know his famous statement about whatever love is).

They didn't spend much time together alone at all before marrying...he either ignored some of the negatives or he thought things would smooth out after all the hoopla was over. Easy enough to write off some of the warning signs as due to the intense media pressure and I am sure that played a role as well.

I think he probably thought he could compartmentalize his life to some degree. Diana is the wife, mother of the heirs, public consort and even have some sort of happy marriage where they rubbed along on a more superficial level. However he had some pretty deep intellectual needs and other interests...the idea that a girl barely 20 who was not an intellectual. not a rider, not understanding (yet) about a passion for conservation would be able to match him ...well he had his friends for that. IMO affairs are rarely about sex.

Now it's possible as Diana matured she could of met more of those needs but things just never developed to that point for all sorts of reasons.

I kinda think Charles was probably a selfish and/or self centered person when he was younger...and I think he was way in over his head trying to handle someone like Diana. Easier to just put some distance between you and try to muddle along the best you can. He just didn't reckon with the fact that Diana couldn't handle that.

I think she tried out the 'traditional' upper crust marriage where you have the heirs then are free to pursue you own interests as long as you keep up appearances and are discreet, but it didn't work for her...she didn't marry the only man who couldn't divorce her in order to end up in a pretend marriage.




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  #1213  
Old 07-12-2015, 04:09 PM
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Random thoughts:
My thought is that Diana was paranoid and lied like a rug but there was something there there when it came to Charles and Camilla. I don't remember who said what but I recall commentators who I deemed either pro-Charles or neutral discussing Charles and Camilla remaining connected when Charles was engaged and/or married to Diana.

Camilla is definitely the right person for Charles but I don't necessarily think that Charles and Camilla fell deeply in love with each other during their initial romance and then carried torches for each other while they married other people. They fell deeply in love, or at least Charles did, but I think that came later on.

To me neither Charles or Diana was madly in love with the other at the time they married but each felt he/she had the requisite amount of affection and attraction to the other to be life-long partners. Both Charles and Diana expected to be married to each other for life, to have children together and to work for "the Firm," given this level of entanglement, I don't think that they entered the marriage with the intent to hurt the other, or to even have reckless disregard for the other.

If Diana fell in love with Charles it was because he was her ticket to becoming a Princess/Queen, if Charles was just some rich guy in her social circle, Diana would not have given him the time of day.

Again there was something there there with Charles and Camilla, but why did Diana feel the need to make public that "there were three of us in this marriage, so it was a bit crowded" when she did it. She started cooperating with the Morton book in 1991, at that point she had overcome her bulimia, she and Charles had been living separate lives and she had had three extra-marital, although not necessarily sexual, dalliances - the RPO, James Hewitt and James Gilbey. Perhaps she still had a problem with Charles and Camilla but was she as consumed and bothered by their relationship as she wanted people to believe? My theory is that at that point what Diana was really consumed with was her public image, and when it seemed like her extra-marital dalliances or other negative/scandalous things may become public, she made a preemptive strike and exposed negative things about her marriage and life as a royal to lay the groundwork in the event any misdeeds on her part became public and she wanted it to be deemed that she was in an untenable situation and victimized.
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Old 07-12-2015, 05:07 PM
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1991 was when she dumped James Hewitt so the idea that he could get involved in a 'tell-all' book unless she got her version of events out there first to divert attention from her own affair/s is a good presumption.
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  #1215  
Old 07-12-2015, 05:50 PM
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I appreciate the thoughtful posts recently. Very interesting reading.


We will never know if Charles and Camilla continued their relationship, physical or emotional, throughout his marriage to Diana. Diana wouldn't have known either, which is why I tend to disregard her accusations. We also don't know the nature of some of Diana's relationships with other men. I tend to think that Barry Manakee was her first lover, but we don't know that for certain. Regardless, she was certainly shared an emotion connection with him.


We do know that Diana and Charles did not connect emotionally. I think those on Charles' side tend to downplay or forget how painful it must have been for Diana to be married to a man who was not intimate with her. They also tend to minimize the impact his affair, whenever it started, had on Diana. It must have been devastating.


On the other hand, many of Diana's fans forget the impact of Diana's decision to be dishonest when she was chasing after Charles. Queen Claud is right that Diana wouldn't have given Charles a second thought if he hadn't been the Prince of Wales. It was only natural that Charles resented and distrusted her when he found out the truth.


The other factor that Diana's fans tend to minimize is that she suffered from a serious mental illness, which is very hard for any spouse. The divorce rate for people with bulimia is very high. It is hard to be emotionally intimate with someone who has mentally ill and has been dishonest with you.


I've always found it interesting that for some of her admirers, Diana is frozen in time as a 19 year old virgin. They seem to argue that since they blame Charles for marrying her in the first place, they can excuse Diana's terrible behavior throughout the rest of her life. They completely overlook that she had affairs with married men, tried to publicly destroy the father of her children, and put her public image above the needs of other people, including her own children. I don't think that they would be so understanding if they were Mrs. Hoare or Mrs. Carling.
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  #1216  
Old 07-12-2015, 06:16 PM
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We do know that Diana and Charles did not connect emotionally. I think those on Charles' side tend to downplay or forget how painful it must have been for Diana to be married to a man who was not intimate with her. They also tend to minimize the impact his affair, whenever it started, had on Diana. It must have been devastating.
People on Diana's side ignore how painful it must have been for Charles to be married to woman who was not truthful and could not be intimate with him. (If you love someone you should be honest with them.)

They tend to minimize the impact of her affairs had on Charles and how devastating it was to him, both as a man and as POW to have a wife that was unfaithful.

We do not know who broke their wedding vows first.
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Old 07-12-2015, 06:21 PM
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Well neither of them can take the high ground since they both admitted to adultery.


LaRae
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  #1218  
Old 07-12-2015, 07:37 PM
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I think if we do some careful observation of what Charles life is like now, we can get a glimmer into what Diana had to face when she first married. Before the wedding, how awesome it was going to be as she would be the Princess of Wales. As been stated many times, Charles and Diana actually didn't spend all that much time together before they married and I do think a lot of that is visible in Charles' life today as we've all seen and heard the rumors of Charles and Camilla leading separate lives and doing their own things. It suits C&C to a tee and they're comfortable enough in the marriage to not need to be in each other's back pockets constantly. I think a stress factor for Diana very early on in the marriage is that she married a man that was constantly on the go and most likely had a very chock filled daily planner. It wasn't a life most newlyweds can enjoy such as coming home from work and having a meal together every night. Perhaps Diana thought she could change Charles after they wed into a more "homebody" husband but found that as much as the Princess of Wales was so attractive to her perhaps the role of Prince of Wales wasn't so attractive as it took him away from her so much.

As we've read that when Diana moved into Buckingham palace, she found herself on her own quite a bit of the time. Perhaps that should have been a red warning light right there that it just may well be the way things will be once married.

I do think there most likely were other underlining reasons why the marriage disintegrated besides the affairs. Affairs usually come about when other things are threatening a relationship and seem like a good idea at the time to fill a need that's been neglected.
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  #1219  
Old 07-12-2015, 08:00 PM
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Well neither of them can take the high ground since they both admitted to adultery.


LaRae
I agree to a point, but feelings aren't rational. I think Diana's adultery has less impact on Charles than Charles' adultery did on Diana.

I think that the marriage was virtually over for Charles by the time Mannakee entered the picture in '86 (?). Whether he rekindled his affair with Camilla before or after, Charles was no longer committed to Diana.

On the other hand, I think Diana had flings but really didn't fall in love with anyone else, until Hasnat Khan.
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  #1220  
Old 07-12-2015, 08:21 PM
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I agree to a point, but feelings aren't rational. I think Diana's adultery has less impact on Charles than Charles' adultery did on Diana.

I think that the marriage was virtually over for Charles by the time Mannakee entered the picture in '86 (?). Whether he rekindled his affair with Camilla before or after, Charles was no longer committed to Diana.

On the other hand, I think Diana had flings but really didn't fall in love with anyone else, until Hasnat Khan.

I agree it did effect her more, and I wish her family would of intervened early on before she said yes... I don't think the marriage ever really got off the ground. The few unifying moments were not enough to overcome the rest.



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