Charles and Diana

[Curryong]

Would the 'children always tend to know who's coming and going from their home, especially if it was secret,' include Camilla, who secretly came and went from Highgrove, or wasn't Highgrove 'their home'?

Diana was a wonderful mother to her children. They were her world, even people who weren't keen on her said as much. They adored her and she them. Even today they speak of her often, with reverence and with love. Diana took them to theme parks because it was the school holidays and she wanted her boys to enjoy themselves, which they did. They weren't taken there to fend off bad publicity. She'd have to be pretty calculating as a parent to have that as a motive and I don't believe she was.

It's probably a good job neither William or Harry can read or hear attacks on her and there have been plenty, especially criticising her maternal instincts, from people who never knew her.

If you take a look at the tributes paid to her over the years from her sons, even earlier this year, the speech Harry gave at the Diana memorial service, the things William has spoken of over the years, his wanting to give Kate his mother's ring so she would in a sense be there sharing their happiness, Harry speaking of the massive gap she left in their lives, no-one can doubt the influence she has had on her sons or the bond they shared.

 

[royal rob]

One of the most hateful thing anyone could say is the someone was a bad mother. Diana adored her boys that was clear to see and they loved her. As Curryong has pointed out how they express their love of her constantly.
I think we are really hitting a low point if we say she wasn't a good mother


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community

 

[Denville]

It's probably a good job neither William or Harry can read or hear attacks on her and there have been plenty, especially criticising her maternal instincts, from people who never knew her.

Ifinfluence she has had on her sons or the bond they shared.

I think she was a very good mother, not perfect. She problaby did lean on the boys too much, and she should Not IMO have publicised her marital troubles.
But I don't believe that she used the boys for PR, any more than Charles did when he was seen with them. She took them places because she wanted them to have a good time, but I think she realised as she/they grew older that they were beginning to prefer time with Charles in Balmoral.
But I m not sure why you think that Will& H don't see some of the attacks on her. There have been critical books and articles, I'm sure they know of them..

Yes, I think this is true. She was ill, but illnesses can be treated.

If you mean a psychological problem, its not that easy to "cure". you don't jut leap off the couch all cured. Its more of a lifetime battle. And I don't think that Diana had that much help...

 

[TLLK]

If you mean a psychological problem, its not that easy to "cure". you don't jut leap off the couch all cured. Its more of a lifetime battle. And I don't think that Diana had that much help...

IMHO Diana was not always receptive to the help being offered especially in the early years of her marriage. If you are not ready to accept the fact that you require assistance, it's unlikely to be beneficial in the long run. By the time that Diana's bulimia was becoming unmanageable, then she was ready to work with a psychiatrist to deal with the underlying issues of her eating disorder. It was the same mental health expert who had successfully treated her sister Sarah.

 

[Osipi]

If you mean a psychological problem, its not that easy to "cure". you don't jut leap off the couch all cured. Its more of a lifetime battle. And I don't think that Diana had that much help...

IMO, she could have had all the help she needed 24/7 and medication up the wazoo but the help and meds only steers the boat in a certain direction and its really up to the person, themselves, to make a recovery or change of a way of thinking. I think Diana made some very serious inroads into her bulimia battles over the years even to the point of being able to talk about it openly and publicly. That really counts for something.

 

[Pranter]

I seem to remember Diana saying something bout having depression after William and none of the family had any experience with it..didn't know how to handle it or what to do with her. This was in the 80's...things like that were not as talked about or understood then either.

I can't imagine it myself...being in the public fishbowl...new wife, new mother at 21 (?)...shaky marriage at best.


LaRae

 

[Denville]

IMO, she could have had all the help she needed 24/7 and medication up the wazoo but the help and meds only steers the boat in a certain direction and its really up to the person, themselves, to make a recovery or change of a way of thinking. I something.

well yes and No. THe RF doesn't "do" mental health problems really and I'm sure they were very worried in the early years that she clearly had depression and some kind of eating problem, so they were scared it would get out. I think she did try to get over her bulimia, and her depression but I do think that she needed a lot of help. Maybe taking a year off and having serious therapy and that wasn't possible when she was still a full time royal. And perhaps to have a fully happy life, maybe she needed to give up the public role that she had, and lead a much quieter life. But I think that even though she was not always up to doing it, the public role had become very important to her and she was trying to keep going at it. She needed the validation of public approval...I think if she had really matured, really gotten over her worst problems, she would have realised that she didn't really need that.. but without her public role, she had her boys and not much else.

 

[SLV]

well yes and No. THe RF doesn't "do" mental health problems really and I'm sure they were very worried in the early years that she clearly had depression and some kind of eating problem, so they were scared it would get out. I think she did try to get over her bulimia, and her depression but I do think that she needed a lot of help. Maybe taking a year off and having serious therapy and that wasn't possible when she was still a full time royal. And perhaps to have a fully happy life, maybe she needed to give up the public role that she had, and lead a much quieter life. But I think that even though she was not always up to doing it, the public role had become very important to her and she was trying to keep going at it. She needed the validation of public approval...I think if she had really matured, really gotten over her worst problems, she would have realised that she didn't really need that.. but without her public role, she had her boys and not much else.

I think that summarises all the causes and results quite well. Had she been more confident in herself, she could perhaps have handled the situation with Charles and Camilla in a better way. But admitting to yourself that you have a problem is hard, very hard. Taking the step to actively seek help, is even harder. Without emotional support from friends and family, it is even worse.

 

[Denville]

well I think that honestly her best bet would have been to quietly ignore C and Cam and get on with life, have a lover, spend time with her sons and her charity work. but I suppose she could not do that. She wanted a proper marriage.. but I think that the whole experience of the marriage and the publicity she attracted in the 1980s just made what might have been a certain amount of problems really deep seated. So that she would IMO have needed a HECK of a lot of help to get over it and maybe to give up being Diana the public figure. And I agree that she did have problems with seeking help and looked for it in the wrong places, but I do think her options were limited and its easy looking form outside to say "she could have given up her public work and gone into therapy and stayed home and worked on her problems..". If she was already feeling bad because she felt so helpless and useless, giving up her public work was only going ot make that feeling worse.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I said "treated", not "cured." Life can be made better for the person and their family through medication and counselling, although I agree completely that it's a life-long thing.

If you mean a psychological problem, its not that easy to "cure". you don't jut leap off the couch all cured. Its more of a lifetime battle. And I don't think that Diana had that much help...

 

[Denville]

I know, sorry Mermaid. But I think she was treated on and off, but was a long way from enough help to make her life happier

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

@denville: I was trying to draw attention to the fact that Charles was not the only Royal male who was sleeping around in the period but was at the time the only one who got mauled in the press. However when you consider that the other blokes I mentioned did get theirs in the press later, Charles was in that sense a trailblazer. I was also drawing attention to just how self absorbed and self pitying he can be even at the best of times sometimes with no good reason

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I totally agree with you. Diana's behavior at that time seemed to be reactive according to what was happening in the press. The more she was criticised the more outrageous she became.

The news about Hewitt sent shock waves through the entire Commonwealth, her response was her "autobiography". But even when she was throwing her husband under a bus there were still those that raised more than an eyebrow about her treating her children as adults and turning her eldest son into her confidant.

I am always annoyed when I hear someone claim she was a wonderful mother when she made no attempt to shield her children from the scandals, children tend to know who's coming and going from their home escpecially if it was secret. Worse, she actually exposeded them to public shame and ridicule with Morton's book and her Panorama piece which seemed to open the floodgates of her exes telling all.
.

I don't think she was a bad mother I just think she did questionable things, example is relying on William too much and not leaving him to be a kid. Also setting up scenarios so she could be photographed at amusement parks.
My issue is that people overrate her mothering. Like the things she did were oh so amazing and unique. For example I heard Arthur Edwards make a huge deal about Diana consoling a young William after he had been scolded for doing something wrong. My response was to roll my eyes because mother's soothe their children all the time when they are upset. I'm not saying she wasn't a good mother because I think she was, but people put emphasis on things that are just ridiculous.
Plus it is also known that Charles was a good father as was Princess Anne and other members of the family.

 

[Denville]

Its hardly Diana's fault that the press exaggerated about her.. and Charles was not entirely guiltless of being seen wit the boys, for PR...

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I seem to remember Diana saying something bout having depression after William and none of the family had any experience with it..didn't know how to handle it or what to do with her. This was in the 80's...things like that were not as talked about or understood then either.

I can't imagine it myself...being in the public fishbowl...new wife, new mother at 21 (?)...shaky marriage at best.


LaRae

This was another version of events based on Diana's words. Others have stated that they did try to get her help but that she was not receptive to it and even resented it, so instead of saying she rejected the hell that was offered she made the world believe that no one tried. I also recall recently hearing that the RF had history of dealing with depression with Princess Margaret but I am not too sure about that last part.

 

[Denville]

@denville: I was trying to draw attention to the fact that Charles was not the only Royal male who was sleeping around in the period but was at the time the only one who got mauled in the

Charles was dangerously close IMO to being pushed into giving up his position in the succession. I think that Cam was so unpopular for a time that the queen might have considered saying "if you re going to insist on being with her, you're going to have to give up your place."
the other 2 guys were Kings and in any case in different cultures where there is not so much "hoo ha" about an affair. (At least in Sweden).
And I wouldnt call it Charles "shagging around." I don't believe that he would have had an affair if the marriage had not been so bad, and the woman was the person he problaby should have married years ago. it was not him going to several women for jollies like a lot of men.

This was another version of events based on Diana's words. Others have stated that they did try to get her help but that she was not receptive to it and even resented it, so instead of saying she rejected the hell that was offered she made the world believe that no one tried. I also recall recently hearing that the RF had history of dealing with depression with Princess Margaret but I am not too sure about that last part.

I dont really remember anyone saying they tried ot get her help. Even her own sister said "we would LIKE to talk to her about her getting so thin",,, not " I want her to go and see a doctor."

I know she was seeing psychiatrists from early on but I'm sure that the RF weren't entirely happy with this, and that they were probably scared about her problems becoming public.. so it is not easy to really make use of the therapy..
Plus one of the features of bulimia is being secret about the illness.. and it took her sometime before she COULD discuss that with her doctors and use the help available. SHe was lucky to get a good eating disorders specialist and came out of her bulimia, but I think the general anxiety and depression needed deeper analysis and she did not really have the time for that.
I don't think that the RF were sympathetic about her illnesses and if they did try to get her helped- it was more on the lines of "This tiresome girl is not fully functioning and we need to get her in better running order so we have to send her to see someone.."

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

@Denville: I was always under the impression viz CG that the revelations about his sex life was the main for his popularity bottoming out, however since you're in Sweden and I'm not I'll take your word for it. The real problem wasn't so much Cm per se but what she represented - the real target was always Charles as the criticism wasn't about his sex life but also his habit of trying to intervene on things he should not have and there was (and still is) real concern in some circles about whether he actually stay within his limits as King - very much the same as Edward 8, Wallis was a pretext the real reason he had to go was his approach to being King and the fact he was a liability.

@MARG: thanks for bringing up the commonwealth. AFAIK The whole mess was the first time New Zealand republicanism was being seriously discussed. There were other reasons - possible Aussie republicanism, changing view of NZs place in the world, part of debate over the constitution... But mostly the fact that Charles was VERY unpopular and general consensus at the time was that he would be an awful King and that H - E - 'double-sippy-straws' would freeze over before " the wicked witch of Wiltshire" would ever be queen. Evidently we have moved on some what , but you never know what the future holds...

 

[Mermaid1962]

Charles's problems in the public eye are his self-indulgence and his self-pity. The Dimbleby book and documentary were the nadir of his image in those respects. When it comes to those qualities, he and Diana were much alike; they were also the reasons why I think the marriage ultimately failed (on both sides).

RE the Prince Charles/Edward 8th connection: I always remember Earl Mountbatten's worries about Charles following the same path as his Great-uncle Edward. I think that the current Prince of Wales has a MUCH stronger sense of duty, however.

@Denville: The real problem wasn't so much Cm per se but what she represented - the real target was always Charles as the criticism wasn't about his sex life but also his habit of trying to intervene on things he should not have and there was (and still is) real concern in some circles about whether he actually stay within his limits as King - very much the same as Edward 8, Wallis was a pretext the real reason he had to go was his approach to being King and the fact he was a liability.

@MARG: thanks for bringing up the commonwealth. AFAIK The whole mess was the first time New Zealand republicanism was being seriously discussed. There were other reasons - possible Aussie republicanism, changing view of NZs place in the world, part of debate over the constitution... But mostly the fact that Charles was VERY unpopular and general consensus at the time was that he would be an awful King and that H - E - 'double-sippy-straws' would freeze over before " the wicked witch of Wiltshire" would ever be queen. Evidently we have moved on some what , but you never know what the future holds...

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

A lot of people have taken Diana to task over the years for expressing her doubts over Charles fitness to be King, given she was trying to secure her own position viz him. but it wouldn't have worked if those doubts had not been there in the first place and she wants the first person to say so but the first to do so publicly.

 

[Denville]

@Denville: I was always under the impression viz CG that the revelations about his sex life was the main for his popularity bottoming out, however since you're in Sweden and I'm not I'll take your word for it. Th
@

I dont live in Sweden, I dont even know mcuh about Carl Gustav, and i dont think that a temporary loss of popularity is that likely to hurt him as he's a reigning King.
As fro Chas sorry but I think you are completley wrong. People may at times get a bit irritated by his habit of "sounding off" but most ordinary people tend to rather like him for it,and he is said to lead a more luxurious lifestyle than is Politically correct, nowadays, but Its hardly baths in asses milk. THe issue was Camilla, and the fact that Charles had cheated on Diana who was very well loved. Once people began to forget Di a bit, and Cam was seen in public and people who met her usually liked her and found that she wasn't a monster with 2 heads, I think that the whole issue began to cool down and fade away. By the time they married only very conservative religiious people or very fanatic Di fans, were bothered.. and now he's back to moderately popular again.

 

[Roslyn]

Indeed one of the reasons I always liked Diana was her willingness to tell Charles what he needed to hear not what he wanted to hear

It's a real shame she only decided to do that after the wedding. He needed to hear that she hated country life and his friends and his interests and his pet dog before he asked her to marry him, or at least before her face was on the tea towels.

 

[Denville]

Perhaps she didn't hate them then... I think she had made herself believe she loved country life.. and she did when It was for a weekend.. and she was willing to show interest in C's interests then.. I think that she had hypnotised herself, and reality broke in, when they went to Balmoral for the second part of their honeymoon. I think she began to realise then that the marriage was for life, the role was for life and that the RF were not much fun when you were stranded with them in the cold for several weeks..

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

It's a real shame she only decided to do that after the wedding. He needed to hear that she hated country life and his friends and his interests and his pet dog before he asked her to marry him, or at least before her face was on the tea towels.

She would never have done that because then he wouldn't have married her.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

People often try to put on a good face during the courtship phase - maybe Diana thought at one point she may come to like the countryside?

 

[duchessrachel]

Perhaps she didn't hate them then... I think she had made herself believe she loved country life.. and she did when It was for a weekend.. and she was willing to show interest in C's interests then.. I think that she had hypnotised herself, and reality broke in, when they went to Balmoral for the second part of their honeymoon. I think she began to realise then that the marriage was for life, the role was for life and that the RF were not much fun when you were stranded with them in the cold for several weeks..

I am not saying this to start a fight, but I am just speculating. I think at the beginning Charles and Diana were infatuated with each other. At that time when you married into the royal family, you pretty much gave up your interests for theirs. I wonder if Diana had just went along and participated in Charles's interests and been a little more submissive to the royal life, if what they had would have turned into love over time. It was a really nice life she married into. But, then both of them were immature and I don't know if either of them could have put the other first.

 

[COUNTESS]

I don't think she was a bad mother I just think she did questionable things, example is relying on William too much and not leaving him to be a kid. Also setting up scenarios so she could be photographed at amusement parks.
My issue is that people overrate her mothering. Like the things she did were oh so amazing and unique. For example I heard Arthur Edwards make a huge deal about Diana consoling a young William after he had been scolded for doing something wrong. My response was to roll my eyes because mother's soothe their children all the time when they are upset. I'm not saying she wasn't a good mother because I think she was, but people put emphasis on things that are just ridiculous.
Plus it is also known that Charles was a good father as was Princess Anne and other members of the family.

You are right, Diana did what most mothers did. Hugged her children and did many things with them. loved them openly. Charles's mother didn't. She shook his hand when she returned from a trip. His grandmother and Mabel Anderson were closer to him. Yes, now, he makes a big deal, but he didn't and said so in his own words. If he3 didn't now, it would be unpopular.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Do you think that after two years of marriage, Princess Diana may have confided to either of her sisters that her idea of a royal marriage did not actually meet the realistic royal marriage she had with Charles?

 

[Ish]

You are right, Diana did what most mothers did. Hugged her children and did many things with them. loved them openly. Charles's mother didn't. She shook his hand when she returned from a trip. His grandmother and Mabel Anderson were closer to him. Yes, now, he makes a big deal, but he didn't and said so in his own words. If he3 didn't now, it would be unpopular.

Comparing the Queen and Diana in their parenting methods is completely absurd.

The circumstances and era under which they were young parents was COMPLETELY different, so expecting one to behave the same way as the other, or criticizing either for not being more like the other, is completely absurd.

The Queen made mistakes as a parent. I don't think anyone would deny that. She was a woman in her 20s with the weight of a Kingdom on her shoulders. She was expected to appear as strong as a man in public because she was filling what was then typically seen as a man's role - it doesn't help that this was the 1950s. But it's clear that despite the fact that Charles did resent his parents for how he was raised, he's moved past it in his adulthood. Anyone who watches Charles interact with his parents now and thinks that they haven't moved past the errors made during his childhood is blind.

Diana was a parent in a completely different era, and wasn't under the same pressures as the Queen was - she was under huge pressure, but a different type of pressure. It should be noted that both she and Charles took a very different approach to parenting from how Charles' parents (and I bet Diana's parents) did. Diana wasn't the only loving, caring parent in that relationship. She made a point to make sure that her son's had what she deemed as "normal" experiences, with the publicized trips to McDonalds and amusement parks and the like, but again if you watch the old videos of Charles am interacting with his sons it's clear that he was an affectionate father.

Diana can be faulted for what she exposed her children to during the divorce and the War of the Waleses - which she admitted to. But she should be praised for all the ways in which she was a loving and caring parent. Not because she did more than what other royal mothers had done (I don't agree that she did), or because she did more than what other mothers do, but because every mother should be praised when they're loving and caring.

 

[Denville]

I don't think it is absurd. OK the queen is a lot older than Di, but I think that with her frist 2 children she wasn't the most affectionate mother. Some of it was to do with her class and time, yes, but I think that perhaps it was only when she was older, with Andrew and Ed that she felt able to be a more relaxed mother. I get the feeling that she thought Di was over doting, and there is a story that one day whn Di was looking after the boys because it was Nanny's day off, she said "I don't know why Diana has to do this, there are plenty of housemaids". I think that she is of the age that saw nanny as the chief care giver... and I think there was a lot fo friction between Chas and botht parents. Of course they've moved past it.. They are basically good people and old enough to learn to get over things..but back in the 80s I think it was still bothering Charles that his parents had not been very affectionate to him..
I was watching some footage of Di and C with the children last night and yes it is obvious that Charles loves the boys, but not I think the way that Diana did. Her heart was bound up with those boys...and I think that C has only gotten really close to them since Diana died. I think that when his marriage got bad, he was away more and left the kids to Diana..
Of course he loves them and hes a more affectionate father than Phil was to him.. but I think that Diana lived for them.. and I don't think whatever her faults, that being a very very loving mother would do them any harm. I'm sure they had their times of being upset by her behaviour because she was angry and unhappy, but they knew she always loved htem and I think that it was easy to forgive her..

 

[Denville]

People often try to put on a good face during the courtship phase - maybe Diana thought at one point she may come to like the countryside?

She did like the countryside, in good weather for a weekend. but when she was stuck there for weeks, in the autumn, in the rain, with Charles out shooting, and the rest of the RF seeming very dull and very over formal, she problaby realised at some level that she didn't like it and maybe it came to her that she was never going to.