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  #801  
Old 09-02-2013, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
This line of post has me wondering whether Charles approached Earl Spencer and asked for his daughter's hand in marriage before he asked Diana. If so, I wonder what Spencer said in reply. This was the opportunity to have that frank discussion and say, 'No, Sir, I recommend you don't ask her yet. She's very young and has lived a rather sheltered life. Give it a bit more time and get to know each other better first. Becoming your wife is a great privilege but also entails great responsibilities and it is important she is fully aware of what she is taking on and that the two of you are absolutely sure that marriage is right for you'. Or was it more, 'Yes, Sir. Of course Sir! She'll make you a fine wife.'


Roslyn, I believe that he did ask Earl Spencer for her hand in marriage, one assumes, as a formality, however it must be remembered that the Spencers had been courtiers for generations, positions NOT acquired by going against their monarch's wishes. I will leave you to judge for yourself which of your two suggested responses he gave.
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  #802  
Old 09-02-2013, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
Which does make you wonder about Charles, actually. What was he actually looking for in a bride? What was it about Diana that appealed to him? He might have been 30 but he seems to have been more than a little naive himself.




I think part of the problem for Charles were the expectations, his own and others, of what a suitable wife should be. High on that list in 1980, was the requirement that she should be pure as undriven snow, a rapidly declining condition in women of his own age. His only option was to look for a girl young enough NOT to have had a "past" which for someone who had never been young, whose tastes had ever been those of a much older person was no easy task, not made easier by the fact that he probably didn't, for diverse reasons, WANT to marry, as much as had a DUTY to marry. I seem to recall that he said of their first meeting when she was 16 to his 29, he'd thought of her "what a jolly schoolgirl"!!!!! One suspects that in his mind she may never have been more than that.

You say you believe he was "more than a little naive." I think you're exactly right. It's more than possible that he thought, because of her youth, she could be molded/trained/groomed into the wife he thought she should be. He didn't allow for her being a girl who would become a woman with her own ideas and he DEFINITELY wasn't prepared for, and couldn't cope with, being relegated to second place in the marriage. I truly DON'T believe that Diana went out of her way to MAKE this happen, but thanks to the public and media thirst for more and more of the pretty young Princess who reached out to them, as opposed to her middle aged, staid husband, I think she began to realise the power she held, and used it.

It was no one's fault. It was a "mesalliance extroardinaire" of which the most that can be said is that it produced two fine, beautiful boys.
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  #803  
Old 09-02-2013, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
Roslyn, I believe that he did ask Earl Spencer for her hand in marriage, one assumes, as a formality, however it must be remembered that the Spencers had been courtiers for generations, positions NOT acquired by going against their monarch's wishes. I will leave you to judge for yourself which of your two suggested responses he gave.
Oh I have never had any doubt as to which would have been the more likely response. No way on earth was her father going to jeopardise the chance of marrying one of his girls off to Charles. He didn't have much time for females other than as "playmates", and I suspect he gave little thought to the parties' compatibility. I imagine he thought Charles would sort her out and that she'd tow the line. I only raised it because that would have been the perfect opportunity for the subject to have been raised. Diana was let down by her family.
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  #804  
Old 09-02-2013, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
I think part of the problem for Charles were the expectations, his own and others, of what a suitable wife should be...
I agree with you for the most part. Charles did want a woman without a past. He also wanted someone who enjoyed the country life, who was sophisticated and polished in social settings, would be able to meet with dignitaries and VIPs, and who would be a loving, hands on mother.

One thing they had in common was that Charles definitely wanted his children to have a different upbringing than his own, and Diana wanted her children to have a different upbringing than her own. I remember that during their courtship, Charles travelled to India (IIRC) and was asked how Diana would feel about the children living in poverty. His response indicated that he and Diana talked a lot about her views on children.

Charles and Diana agreed on how their children would be educated and that William and Harry would have as normal a childhood as possible. I'm sure there were disagreements when Charles thought Diana took normalcy to far or Diana felt Charles was putting too much emphasis on duty, but any two parents are going to have disagreements.

I also agree that Charles thought Diana could be molded into what he wanted for a wife. Andrew Morton said that his wedding gift to her was a stack of books. Charles thought Diana could read them and then they would discuss them. I thought it was sweet, but it was also his way of "educating" her. I think Diana tried but her heart wasn't in it. That isn't to say she was not intelligent, but I don't think she was interested in the types of intellectual discussions he wanted. That was a huge disappointment for him.
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  #805  
Old 09-02-2013, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I wonder why her employers didn't see that side of her? They have only good things to say about her--except for the dance teacher she worked for who thought, if I recall correctly--that she lacked dedication. She seemed to be highly capable in some areas and lacking in others. Prince Charles must have seen the areas she was good in: humour and empathy.

Don't forget her employers did not see that much of her. She worked at the Young England kindergarten only three afternoons a week; the young American boy she babysat was on a part-time basis as well.
Neither job asked much of her, so she had no trouble fulfilling expectations.
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  #806  
Old 09-02-2013, 10:17 AM
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I wonder why her employers didn't see that side of her? They have only good things to say about her--except for the dance teacher she worked for who thought, if I recall correctly--that she lacked dedication. She seemed to be highly capable in some areas and lacking in others. Prince Charles must have seen the areas she was good in: humour and empathy.
And a VIRGIN - the barbaric hunt for virgin with a Title in the family for Charles. This at a time when ladies were glad to be rid of their chastity and experiment just as the young lords were.
The press seemed obsessed, and I think the family was as well. Today, we are appalled at other cultures where young women lose their value if they are not chaste. Yet the practice, at least for the heir, was in fine fettle for Diana to come on the scene less than 40 years ago.
Few good things came out of the union - but the one thing that did is that it stopped the virgin hunts.
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  #807  
Old 09-02-2013, 10:45 AM
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Don't forget her employers did not see that much of her. She worked at the Young England kindergarten only three afternoons a week; the young American boy she babysat was on a part-time basis as well.
Neither job asked much of her, so she had no trouble fulfilling expectations.
It was also the type of work she did. Working with young children is challenging. You need patience, and Diana possessed that. Being a parent is difficult at every stage, but the newborn to 5 or 6 year old children are reasonably easy in some respects. Many times all they want is to be picked up and cuddled. Diana loved that.

Relationships with older children are more complicated. When I walked in the door when my kids were younger, they were so excited to see me. Nowadays, my dog is the only one who seems happy to see me when I come home and sometimes I wonder about him.

At one point, Diana tried to spark a reconciliation by offering to have another child. I think she may have thought she was offering Charles something he wanted, but it may have also been due to the fact that William and Harry were off at school and didn't need her in the same way that they needed her as babies. Some women are like that.
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  #808  
Old 09-07-2013, 03:05 PM
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I think it shows something about Diana's personality and maturity that she thought having another child would help the situation and them. Isn't it said that you should need have children to save a marriage?
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  #809  
Old 09-07-2013, 03:23 PM
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If all those children, who had been conceived in the hope of saving failing marriages, suddenly weren't there, it would demonstrate just how frequently and universally the method is used.
.
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  #810  
Old 09-07-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
I think it shows something about Diana's personality and maturity that she thought having another child would help the situation and them. Isn't it said that you should need have children to save a marriage?
I know of someone that thought this also. Husband wants a divorce, she gets pregnant. He conceded to wait until the child was born and then they divorced. For me there is only one reason to stay in the marriage and that is because you want to stay married to that person. Its not a game of strategies and manipulations.

Diana was a manipulator to get things to be the way she wanted them to be. Its not a totally bad way to be but sometimes she used it negatively to enforce her will on others. She was the center of her world.
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  #811  
Old 09-07-2013, 04:05 PM
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Theirs was the same story played out in many families around the world. Two people who should not have married did so anyway and payed the price for a bad decision on both parts.
It was a classic case of engagement ring + wedding ring = suffering.
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  #812  
Old 09-07-2013, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post

If all those children, who had been conceived in the hope of saving failing marriages, suddenly weren't there, it would demonstrate just how frequently and universally the method is used.
Um...yeah I have no idea what you just said.
I don't think Diana wanting a third child was manipulative, more like naive to think that would at all have helped the situation. It was bad enough WnH had to go through the crap from their parents marriage.
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  #813  
Old 09-08-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Diana was a manipulator to get things to be the way she wanted them to be. Its not a totally bad way to be but sometimes she used it negatively to enforce her will on others. She was the center of her world.
And this is the sad truth. She had so much potential, but unfortunately, a lot of it was used for her own gain.
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  #814  
Old 09-09-2013, 08:56 AM
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Diana could be manipulative, but I don't think that her offer to have another child with Charles was particularly manipulative, just extremely unrealistic. If having William and Harry hadn't solved their problems, there was no reason to think that another child would be the magic bullet.

She had the tendency to try and find easy solutions for her problems, i.e., she didn't want a divorce, so she aspired to marry into the royal family rather than try and find someone with whom she was compatible and then work at their relationship. This tendency is also evident in her dealings with people outside of the royal family. When Dr. Khan couldn't commit to marriage, instead of trying to work out a compromise, she tried making him jealous. Diana didn't seem to understand that life is full of compromises and hard work, even if you are wealthy and powerful.
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Old 09-16-2013, 01:20 PM
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Diana hated men (per Jephson’s and I might agree)

They made the rules and Charles benefitted from them so she took out all of her anger and frustration on Charles.

IMO, Diana felt she was responsible for her parent's divorce. Had she been a girl maybe her mother would not had had an affair and her parents’ would not have gotten a divorce.

She felt she was not good enough.
This was reinforced by her parents when she was the only one of her siblings without a royal godparent.

She fought the system, the establishment, the men in grey suits.
Charles benefitted from the system, the establishment and primogeniture. Primogeniture was one of the reason’s for Diana’s parents’ divorce. The need for a son to inherit the title and the land caused stress in their marriage. (Diana’s immediate family did not come into the title until 1910.).

Jephson talks about her rage at Charles when her father died.
IMO, she was anger not at Charles but at her father as he didn’t live long enough to see that she was good enough.

She was angry at the RF for not telling her she was doing a good job. IMO, she wanted praise to convince herself she was good enough. She needed to hear this constantly and the RF saw her doing her duties as just that nothing more. They were not aware that she needed constant praise. It was a failure to communicate.

Maybe her parents/family might not have been totally aware of her needs/issues. Her parents had spent limited time with her. She was raised by nannies and sent to boarding school at 9 and then move in with her sister at 16, then on her own at 18.

I don’t think Charles was to blame. She wanted the marriage and presented the side of her she knew he wanted to see.

IMO, the marriage could not be saved because Diana treated Charles like a toy. When she had a better toy (Hewitt, etc.) she discarded Charles but when she saw another kid (Camilla) playing with the toy she demanded the toy back. (Annabel birthday party.)

I just finished reading Patrick Jephson's book Shadow of a Princess and it was very insightful.

Interesting he states that the Dimbleby book & TV were already in the works before the Morton book was released.

According to him, Charles & Diana were on friendly terms since August 1992 and then Diana experienced some very bad press because of the Carling affair and she decided to do the Panorama interview.

It was the Panorama interview not Diana's abortion remarks to Tiggy that caused the Queen to asked for divorce. Jephson said he tried to make amends with the Queen but the Queen rejected it.

Had she not gotten involved with Carling maybe the marriage might have worked.

Intersting Diana only called Camilla a Rottweiler during the Morton book released. He said the 1st time he heard it was in May 1992 when
Charles & his friends were going on vacation to Turkey and shared a plane with Diana who was going to Egypt. By August there were fewer times that Diana referred to Camilla as a Rottweiler and by December 1992, she had stopped altogether calling Camilla a Rottweiler.
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Old 09-16-2013, 03:24 PM
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Diana hated men? You've made too many sweeping statements in this post for me to reply to right now, but...Seriously? You think she hated men?
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  #817  
Old 09-16-2013, 03:40 PM
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She didn't hate men....far from it...this according to one of her most critical biographers Lady Colin Campbell.

I've heard every kind of epithet used to describe the late Princess, but never that.
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  #818  
Old 09-16-2013, 03:54 PM
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I don't think Diana hated men. I'm also wary of using Patrick Jephson's observations to explain why the marriage broke down in the first place. He only started working for Diana in 1988, after the marriage broke down. I think he was in the navy before that. Obviously, he can explain how Diana and Charles interacted from 1988 to 1996, but that really doesn't reveal why the marriage broke down.

For example, Jephson is critical of Charles and the royal family for failing to praise Diana enough. Jephson has no way of knowing whether Charles was more supportive in the early years of marriage. He may have tried to be supportive but gave up when he decided that no amount of praise would be enough. On the other hand, it is possible that Charles was even less supportive in the early years. He can't really address whether Charles and Diana ever really loved each other, or which one cheated first.

I found his views of Diana fascinating though. I don't think it is a complete portrait because she could be different things to different people. She was a very complex woman.
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  #819  
Old 10-15-2013, 12:52 AM
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Diana's true love, by her closest friend:
Diana's true love, by her closest friend | Mail Online

I have no doubt that the late Princess of Wales's true love was her husband, The Prince of Wales. I think despite all that drama, heartache and pain, if Charles & Diana would've have the time and energy to work things out, they would've been together today.
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Old 10-15-2013, 02:07 PM
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I agree. I think that they were both people who were used to having things their own way. Every marriage is give-and-take and there are always compromises to be made, but it's worth it in the long run.
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