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  #761  
Old 09-01-2013, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
That was a very heavy yolk to place round the neck of a very immature 19 year old.
Age has little to do with it, but following your logic, we would have then expected from her some decorum around the age of 30. Just saying.
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  #762  
Old 09-01-2013, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
In this case, had Diana stayed in the marriage for convenience, what message would that have sent to William and Harry?

For commoners, children understand it as their parents sticking together because of money or appearances. Kids see through it, but they also see the problems that arise out of sticking it out.

But in the case of Royalty it can send the unique message that love is not possible in many Royal Marriages. That the job precludes love. Or worse yet that royal men are owed a pretty, unloved wife and a bit on the side. I think Diana might have found that a terrible message to give her boys.

Just my musing on the issue.
I think that is a very one-sided view of the marriage. First, I am not sure why "commoner's" children would understand if their parents stick together because of appearances, but royal children would not.

Second, if Diana was worried about the message she was sending to her boys, perhaps she should have refrained from using them as cover for her own extramarital affairs.
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  #763  
Old 09-01-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
I don't know that ending the marriage was the best decision; I tend to agree with Robert Lacey that Diana was on a downward spiral following the divorce.

I can't think she'd have married Dodi or anyone like him, because I can't think she took a relationship with him seriously; I have heard she was bored and planned to dump him once she returned to London. Unfortunately, he was the type of man she was attracting.

Also, I don't see what (positive) things were in store for her; she seemed to be sliding into a lifestyle of socializing with Euro-trash and dabbling in New-Age philosophy. And her loneliness seemed palpable.

(I have always feared that she'd end up like her mother eventually).
She was certainly in a bad place in the couple of months before her death, but I don't see Hasnat Khan as Euro-trash and he certainly wasn't dabbling in New-Age philosophy. I think there were insurmountable problems because he wanted a different kind of life than she did (or could live), but he seems to be a stable, kind man.

Diana made many poor choices in her life, but I think with continued treatment, she would have eventually found a suitable mate.
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  #764  
Old 09-01-2013, 11:38 AM
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A lot of people have spoken abt Diana's mental stability, attention seeking behaviour and the need to be loved/best.

It's really not fair to say that she really suffered from all the above mentioned problems.

In the royal family especially then there was always the great divide I being born royal and married royal.

At home Diana was probably made to feel like she was not as good as the others while the public put her on a pedestal.

All this would easily wreck havoc on the mind of a 19 year old. It was probably the royal family that she married into that led to these problems.

Moreover when a spouse goes through a bad phase the other is suppose to stand by her. But in this case that didn't happen.

I won't put the blame on one. Both made mistakes and this was bound to happen. Clearly the weren't in love with each other. I'd like to believe they tried to love each other, but failed miserably.
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  #765  
Old 09-01-2013, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
US Royal Watcher, after my reply to COUNTESS, this may seem like a contradiction. I spoke of compromise to her, but I feel that it would have been unfair to expect this of Diana at HER age because it would have HAD to be a lifetime commitment on her part. A DUTY. I've already said that I don't feel they should ever have married and I think the only chance she stood of being true to herself was by extricating herself from it, partly because she was still young enough to be capable of change. Charles wasn't. I doubt that he ever was, but then he understands duty and I think, to the best of his ability, lives by it. That was a very heavy yolk to place round the neck of a very immature 19 year old.
I see your point, but where we disagree is who was responsible for helping Charles and Diana come to a more responsible decision in 1980.

I think we all can agree that some 19 year-olds are ready to make that kind of commitment to that kind of life, so I don't think it is fair to simply say that he shouldn't have married her because she was 19. Catherine was about that age when she got involved with William--it was a different situation, but she was obviously more mature and stable than Diana was at the same age.

During their courtship, Charles tried to make sure that Diana understood what she was getting into. Diana had been living on her own in a large city for more than a year. She handled herself well when she was with his family and dignitaries. He famously asked Camilla to talk with her. But Camilla wasn't the only friend he sent to talk with Diana and try get a read on her.

Charles also noted how Diana handled the media and the spotlight. Diana was a great actress and her apparent maturity fooled him.

Again, that's where her parents should have stepped in. I don't think they should get a pass here. If Diana was too immature to realize that she was too immature, her parents should have stepped in.
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  #766  
Old 09-01-2013, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Princess B View Post
A lot of people have spoken abt Diana's mental stability, attention seeking behaviour and the need to be loved/best.

It's really not fair to say that she really suffered from all the above mentioned problems.

In the royal family especially then there was always the great divide I being born royal and married royal.

At home Diana was probably made to feel like she was not as good as the others while the public put her on a pedestal.

All this would easily wreck havoc on the mind of a 19 year old. It was probably the royal family that she married into that led to these problems.

Moreover when a spouse goes through a bad phase the other is suppose to stand by her. But in this case that didn't happen.

I won't put the blame on one. Both made mistakes and this was bound to happen. Clearly the weren't in love with each other. I'd like to believe they tried to love each other, but failed miserably.
I am not sure the royal family was a huge presence in her everyday life. It's not like she and Charles were living in his parents' basement. They had their own house in the country and their own apartment in Kensington Palace.

I don't think they saw the royal family that much. It may have been stressful for her when they spent holidays with his family, but I don't think that is a huge portion of her life. Many women are able to handle poor relations with their in-laws without throwing themselves down flights of stairs.

The two key relationships in her life were with Charles and with herself.
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  #767  
Old 09-01-2013, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I think that is a very one-sided view of the marriage. First, I am not sure why "commoner's" children would understand if their parents stick together because of appearances, but royal children would not.

Second, if Diana was worried about the message she was sending to her boys, perhaps she should have refrained from using them as cover for her own extramarital affairs.
Yes it is one sided - my side, my opinion. I get to have that here.
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  #768  
Old 09-01-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I am not sure the royal family was a huge presence in her everyday life. It's not like she and Charles were living in his parents' basement. They had their own house in the country and their own apartment in Kensington Palace.

I don't think they saw the royal family that much. It may have been stressful for her when they spent holidays with his family, but I don't think that is a huge portion of her life. Many women are able to handle poor relations with their in-laws without throwing themselves down flights of stairs.

The two key relationships in her life were with Charles and with herself.
Agreed.
It is also quite puzzling how many of the commentators here tend to psychoanalyze Diana, instead of basing their assessment on facts: her actions.
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  #769  
Old 09-01-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
Yes it is one sided - my side, my opinion. I get to have that here.
We're all entitled to our opinion.
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  #770  
Old 09-01-2013, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess B View Post
A lot of people have spoken abt Diana's mental stability, attention seeking behaviour and the need to be loved/best.

It's really not fair to say that she really suffered from all the above mentioned problems.

In the royal family especially then there was always the great divide I being born royal and married royal.

At home Diana was probably made to feel like she was not as good as the others while the public put her on a pedestal.

All this would easily wreck havoc on the mind of a 19 year old. It was probably the royal family that she married into that led to these problems.

Moreover when a spouse goes through a bad phase the other is suppose to stand by her. But in this case that didn't happen.

I won't put the blame on one. Both made mistakes and this was bound to happen. Clearly the weren't in love with each other. I'd like to believe they tried to love each other, but failed miserably.



I feel that which ever marriage Diana was the female half of, she would have required constant reassurance because of her own insecurities. Charles, because of who he was, was incapable of giving praise for duties performed that he saw as being just part of her job, which was to play second fiddle to him. I don't in any way mean this to sound disrespectful. I simply don't think he realized just how much she needed HIS approval and validation, because she needed to FEEL that he valued and loved her. The problem lay in that she was unable to value/love herself and NO ONE could do that for her. It became a toxic mix.
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  #771  
Old 09-01-2013, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Argie View Post
Agreed.
It is also quite puzzling how many of the commentators here tend to psychoanalyze Diana, instead of basing their assessment on facts: her actions.



But Argie, her "actions" like our own are based on our psychologies which is partly formed by our previous experiences.
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  #772  
Old 09-01-2013, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
But Argie, her "actions" like our own are based on our psychologies which is partly formed by our previous experiences.
I agree with you. Our actions are based on our emotional needs. On the other hand, although I think Diana was mentally ill, which explained many of her poor decisions, it shouldn't be used as an excuse for some of her very destructive actions: using her sons as cover for affairs, tell all books and interviews, trying to frame a child for her nuisance calls, etc...

Her illness made some of her mistakes understandable, but some of her actions were just plain wrong.
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  #773  
Old 09-01-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
But Argie, her "actions" like our own are based on our psychologies which is partly formed by our previous experiences.
Yes, actions are based on thought patterns. But we cannot know what was going on in her head and not even close relatives might have known. I doubt Charles could "read" or anticipate her thought process. Therefore, it seems to me that an assessment of Diana's marriage/relationship with Charles would be more accurate if based on her (and his) mere actions.
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  #774  
Old 09-01-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post

I see your point, but where we disagree is who was responsible for helping Charles and Diana come to a more responsible decision in 1980.

I think we all can agree that some 19 year-olds are ready to make that kind of commitment to that kind of life, so I don't think it is fair to simply say that he shouldn't have married her because she was 19. Catherine was about that age when she got involved with William--it was a different situation, but she was obviously more mature and stable than Diana was at the same age.

During their courtship, Charles tried to make sure that Diana understood what she was getting into. Diana had been living on her own in a large city for more than a year. She handled herself well when she was with his family and dignitaries. He famously asked Camilla to talk with her. But Camilla wasn't the only friend he sent to talk with Diana and try get a read on her.

Charles also noted how Diana handled the media and the spotlight. Diana was a great actress and her apparent maturity fooled him.

Again, that's where her parents should have stepped in. I don't think they should get a pass here. If Diana was too immature to realize that she was too immature, her parents should have stepped in.
I just don't agree. I think we all know how to average 19-year-old is when they get their mind made up about something. And a 19-year-old is an adult not a child so her family or friends could've talked until they were blue in the face-- she was just going to do it anyway. I think the time for her parents to intervene was Much earlier when she was young and feeling neglected and abandoned. Those insecure feelings stayed with her and colored a lot of her behavior. The person who should have thought this thing through and pumped his brakes was Prince Charles. But in many ways he was also immature.

But parents can't really tell you much when you're that age. I got married at 20 just out of school and my parents definitely did not want me to get married but it's 30 years later and I'm still married.
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  #775  
Old 09-01-2013, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I agree with you. Our actions are based on our emotional needs. On the other hand, although I think Diana was mentally ill, which explained many of her poor decisions, it shouldn't be used as an excuse for some of her very destructive actions: using her sons as cover for affairs, tell all books and interviews, trying to frame a child for her nuisance calls, etc...

Her illness made some of her mistakes understandable, but some of her actions were just plain wrong.



US Royal Watcher, I'm inclined to think that it was psychological damage which was the cause of behavioural disorders centred around getting her very complex needs met. It manifested itself physically in the form of bulimia which in my experience is usually linked to psychological problems. The RIGHT sort of counselling can work wonders for sufferers. I tend to see mental illnesses as being something other.
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  #776  
Old 09-01-2013, 12:35 PM
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I just don't agree. I think we all know how to average 19-year-old is when they get their mind made up about something. And a 19-year-old is an adult not a child so her family or friends could've talked until they were blue in the face-- she was just going to do it anyway. I think the time for her parents to intervene was Much earlier when she was young and feeling neglected and abandoned. Those insecure feelings stayed with her and colored a lot of her behavior. The person who should have thought this thing through and pumped his brakes was Prince Charles. But in many ways he was also immature.

But parents can't really tell you much when you're that age. I got married at 20 just out of school and my parents definitely did not want me to get married but it's 30 years later and I'm still married.
Okay. I see where you are coming from, and I agree they couldn't have stopped Diana, but I think they could have convinced Charles. Based on what we know now, Charles was very unsure about marriage but feeling pressured to marry Diana. If her parents (or her mother) had discussed her doubts with them, it would have taken the pressure off Charles.

No one can ever know what could have been, but I think Charles, the Queen and Prince Philip would have had a hard time moving forward at that point if they knew that her mother had concerns. I don't know that waiting another six months or so would have changed the outcome, but I think Diana's mother should have tried. I know I would have if it had been my daughter.
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  #777  
Old 09-01-2013, 12:39 PM
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Didn't Diana's mother have concerns about her marriage? I also heard her grandmother as well. Maybe her father was just happy to have her married to a prince and didn't consider if his daughter was suited for it or not. As for Diana's mother I could see how it would be hard for a mother to potentially ruin her daughters relationship by raising concerns to Charles or his family. Perhaps she just kept quiet and wished for the best.
I still think that if Charles had dated Diana longer the facade would have begun to crack. We are all on our best behavior when we start a new relationship, but as it progresses the happy fake mask falls off and the real person emerges. "What do you mean you hate my cooking?" "What! You hate football and basketball and all sports?"
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  #778  
Old 09-01-2013, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
US Royal Watcher, I'm inclined to think that it was psychological damage which was the cause of behavioural disorders centred around getting her very complex needs met. It manifested itself physically in the form of bulimia which in my experience is usually linked to psychological problems. The RIGHT sort of counselling can work wonders for sufferers. I tend to see mental illnesses as being something other.
That is interesting. I do think of bulimia as a mental illness, and Diana admitted that she suffered from depression. I also think she suffered from a personality disorder. There is a long discussion about this issue on the thread covering Diana's bulimia.
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  #779  
Old 09-01-2013, 12:42 PM
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Didn't Diana's mother have concerns about her marriage? I also heard her grandmother as well. Maybe her father was just happy to have her married to a prince and didn't consider if his daughter was suited for it or not. As for Diana's mother I could see how it would be hard for a mother to potentially ruin her daughters relationship by raising concerns to Charles or his family. Perhaps she just kept quiet and wished for the best.
Unfortunately, I think that is exactly what happened. It was a difficult situation but sometimes you have to be prepared to let your kids hate you.
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  #780  
Old 09-01-2013, 12:58 PM
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Diana's mother seems to me to have been congenitally unable to give any valuable advice to her children.

She made a colossal mess of her own relationships, so i doubt she would have shown much insight into anyone elses. Also her 'credit' ,as regards her past behaviour [as a 'bolter'], deserting her young children, would not have inspired confidence in Diana, who seems to have sought marriage to the Prince believing that [with him] there could be no possiblity of a repeat of her parents catastrophic divorce.

Diana's feeings towards her mother were naturally very complex, and i doubt she'd have listened to her on the subject of what makes a secure & happy marriage.
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