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  #721  
Old 08-31-2013, 06:03 PM
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Some people have trouble accepting that a human being ends up acting like a human being, whether discussing anyone in this all-too-human tragedy.
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  #722  
Old 08-31-2013, 06:06 PM
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Charles had PLENTY of his own baggage brought to the table
who said the opposite ?
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  #723  
Old 08-31-2013, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Well Charles may not have used his sons to cover his affair, he certainly used any house any one of his friends or relatives would allow, as clearly delineated in their own words on tape.As we have previously discussed Camilla made regular briefings to the Sun's Stuart Higgins on "Charles' side". As we have previously discussed, Charles spent the night before the first wedding with Camilla, which to me is beyond the pale, and shows such a complete lack of good faith at the wedding in the mooring. Charles had PLENTY of his own baggage brought to the table.
More fiction from the Diana fanclub.
Stuart Higgins said Camilla DID NOT contact him and she rarely gave any information about anyone.
Charles was not with Camilla the night before his wedding.

Diana brought her lovers to KP & Highgrove.
(C&C had enough class not to sleep at KP and not to sleep together at Highgrove until after Diana's death.)

Maybe the Diana fanatics consider facts to be bashing their Sainted One.
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  #724  
Old 08-31-2013, 07:50 PM
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I think one of the things that causes a bit of friction on this topic is the question of when people consider the marriage ended. Some consider it was not over until the formal separation, and that Charles should be criticised for being a cruel, cheating husband until then, but I consider that the marriage relationship had ended by 1986, both of them having tried to make it work.

By then I think Charles had given up but I don't think Diana had, though I think she had some totally unreasonable and unrealistic expectations, and the difference in their attitudes and expectations after that gave rise to a great deal of conflict. They were essentially living separately and apart under the one roof, and that rarely works; both parties have to be of the one mind about the situation otherwise it is intolerable. I think it is a great shame that they did not separate then, and I blame Charles and the RF for this. I think the Queen buried her head in the sand over it and hoped it would go away; I understand she has a habit of avoiding confrontation in respect of family issues.

I consider that they were both responsible for the breakdown of the marriage. Charles should never have asked her to marry him so soon. He should have made a point of getting to know her better and should have made sure she really would fit into his life the way she was expected to. They didn't spend enough time together and Charles seems to have blithely accepted Diana's word about loving the things he loved. Because of Diana's youth and naivety the onus was on Charles and the RF and I primarily blame them for the fact Charles proposed far too soon because they clearly had little in common and should not have married. I think they had children too soon and were both carried along with the momentum of their lives and learning to be parents, and both enjoying that aspect of their lives, for the first few years and their huge differences did not become apparent.

In my opinion once the marriage had broken down a different set of rules applied. I do not criticise Diana for having affairs, I criticise her for her hypocrisy about the subject.
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  #725  
Old 08-31-2013, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
More fiction from the Diana fanclub.
Stuart Higgins said Camilla DID NOT contact him and she rarely gave any information about anyone.
Charles was not with Camilla the night before his wedding.

(C&C had enough class not to sleep at KP and not to sleep together at Highgrove until after Diana's death.)
Really? Perhaps you should tell Tina Brown and Sally Bedell, who disagree on your assessment of Camilla's 10 year press briefings to Stuart Higgins

independant.co.uk - Independant Resources and Information.

Royal Truth: Kate Middleton speaks to the press..again!

Diana reassessed: Part Two | Mail Online.

Tina Brown...The Diana Chronicles.

The source for Charles and Camilla spending the night came from Stephen Barry, the POW personal Valet, one of the very few people to know with certainty exactly who spent the night in the princely bed, describing it as "Certainly incredibly daring, if not incredibly stupid".

ETA: for some reason the link doesnt come up on the first one, but the article is "Ratpack who fought royal publicity war by proxy" by Kim Sengupta. If you google it you should see it.
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  #726  
Old 08-31-2013, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
I think one of the things that causes a bit of friction on this topic is the question of when people consider the marriage ended...
You make a lot of interesting points. I agree that they should have divorced much earlier. The Queen and Prince Philip kept pressuring them to work out their differences but it just wasn't possible at that point.

I agree that Diana was young and when she decided to get married, but I don't agree that the onus was completely on Charles and the Royal Family. Diana had parents. After Charles proposed, Diana went to visit her mother. I think her mother (and father) should have talked to both of them about slowing down.
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  #727  
Old 08-31-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
...The source for Charles and Camilla spending the night came from Stephen Barry, the POW personal Valet, one of the very few people to know with certainty exactly who spent the night in the princely bed, describing it as "Certainly incredibly daring, if not incredibly stupid".
I have never seen any proof that Stephen Barry confirmed that Camilla spent the night with Charles before the wedding. This fact was certainly not in either of his books. Barry died in 1986, but that allegation wasn't made until 1992. So why did the person who supposedly heard it from Barry (I can't recall the name at this time) delay this revelation for six years? IIRC, this source also claimed to have tapes of Diana and Charles in their home. The tapes turned out to be hoaxes.
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  #728  
Old 08-31-2013, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahedwards2 View Post

Why did women who married into the royal family have to be declared virgins before they could marry?
I think it was the only way, although imperfect, to assure the legitimacy of a royal heir before early pregnancy tests, DNA or psychological profiles (would that have helped - hmm).
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  #729  
Old 08-31-2013, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Tina Brown...The Diana Chronicles.
Funny you mentioned this book because it is far to be popular among the Diana's fans.

The most savage attack on Diana EVER | Mail Online

And i wonder why :

"Diana's claim that she tried to commit suicide while pregnant with William was a sympathy-seeking lie".

"Diana was a humanitarian who at one level really identified with the common people, as she thought of them. But she was also a very messed-up woman whose downfall was due to her own insane jealousy and self-obsession"

"The shy Di is a myth," one photographer said. When a Sunday newspaper reported in November 1980 that she had spent two nights on the Royal "love train" with Charles, the Palace and Diana issued stern denials".

"Diana's mother was always suspicious of her daughter's motives in marrying Charles. She feared Diana loved not the man, but the status he could bring her".

"The book says that while her charitable work gave her some of the satisfaction that she was unable to find in her relationships with men, she often deliberately timed her philanthropic appearances to upstage Charles."
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  #730  
Old 08-31-2013, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I agree that Diana was young and when she decided to get married, but I don't agree that the onus was completely on Charles and the Royal Family. Diana had parents. After Charles proposed, Diana went to visit her mother. I think her mother (and father) should have talked to both of them about slowing down.
I think the Spencers were absolutely delighted with the prospect that their youngest daughter was going to succeed where her older sibling had failed. I doubt any of them would have said anything that might make Diana doubt the wisdom of marrying the future king.
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  #731  
Old 08-31-2013, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
I think the Spencers were absolutely delighted with the prospect that their youngest daughter was going to succeed where her older sibling had failed. I doubt any of them would have said anything that might make Diana doubt the wisdom of marrying the future king.
Roslyn, I'm not arguing with you, but according to Tina Brown's book, her mother tried to talk her out of the marriage. I think her mother should have talked with Charles directly or the Queen and Prince Philip.

Diana's mother may have been worried that Diana wouldn't forgive her if she had. It was certainly a troubled relationship. But I think that is what a parent is supposed to do. Sometimes you have to be willing to let your kids hate you.
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  #732  
Old 08-31-2013, 09:00 PM
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You're most welcome to set me straight if I get one of the facts wrong. It has been a few years since I read all the books on the subject, and some details are getting a big fuzzy. When I said "Spencers" I was thinking father and maternal grandmother rather than mother, even though Baroness Fermoy was not a Spencer. I had in mind that Diana didn't really listen to her mother. Actually, I doubt she would have listened to any of them if they did counsel her against the quick marriage. She had her mind set on marrying Charles.
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  #733  
Old 08-31-2013, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
You're most welcome to set me straight if I get one of the facts wrong. It has been a few years since I read all the books on the subject, and some details are getting a big fuzzy. When I said "Spencers" I was thinking father and maternal grandmother rather than mother, even though Baroness Fermoy was not a Spencer. I had in mind that Diana didn't really listen to her mother. Actually, I doubt she would have listened to any of them if they did counsel her against the quick marriage. She had her mind set on marrying Charles.
I think you are correct on that, but if Frances talked directly with Charles, it probably would have slowed the process down. It would certainly would have given him an out. I agree that Charles tried to evade responsibility for the marriage by blaming his own parents and the media pressure. He should have been stronger.

I think Charles should have explicitly explained that he wasn't "in love" with her. I think Charles should have said something like: "I was in love with a woman who married someone else. I haven't been able to get over her. I care about you and believe that we could build a good marriage but I don't feel about you the way I feel for this other woman."

I tend to think Diana still would have married him hoping that she could get him to love her--but at least Charles would have been honest with her.
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  #734  
Old 08-31-2013, 09:12 PM
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I think that Stephen Barry could be quite a mischief maker. One writer--sorry, I forget who--had the theory that Barry put the pictures of Camilla in Charles's diary and put out the C & C cufflinks for Charles to wear. Makes sense, because would Charles pick out his own cufflinks? Barry seemed to do everything; and in his first book, he says that the reason he resigned from the Prince's staff was that he was, in effect, redundant because Prince Charles was married. I think that Barry was threatened by the Prince having a wife.

Quote:
Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I have never seen any proof that Stephen Barry confirmed that Camilla spent the night with Charles before the wedding. This fact was certainly not in either of his book. Barry died in 1986, but that allegation wasn't made until 1992. So why did the person who supposedly heard it from Barry (I can't recall the name at this time) delay this revelation for six years? IIRC, this source also claimed to have tapes of Diana and Charles in their home. The tapes turned out to be hoaxes.
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  #735  
Old 08-31-2013, 09:16 PM
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I completely agree. That he allowed Dimbleby to include criticisms of his parents was cruel to them. Most people, by the age of 40, are past blaming their parents for their problems. Charles came off as whiny in both the documentary and the book. He damaged his own reputation more than he hurt Diana's.


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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I think you are correct on that, but if Frances talked directly with Charles, it probably would have slowed the process down. It would certainly would have given him an out. I agree that Charles tried to evade responsibility for the marriage by blaming his own parents and the media pressure. He should have been stronger.
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  #736  
Old 08-31-2013, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I completely agree. That he allowed Dimbleby to include criticisms of his parents was cruel to them. Most people, by the age of 40, are past blaming their parents for their problems. Charles came off as whiny in both the documentary and the book. He damaged his own reputation more than he hurt Diana's.
Oh, I do believe Charles is whiny and hard work, but he has at least proven he can have a long term relationship.
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  #737  
Old 08-31-2013, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I think that Stephen Barry could be quite a mischief maker. One writer--sorry, I forget who--had the theory that Barry put the pictures of Camilla in Charles's diary and put out the C & C cufflinks for Charles to wear. Makes sense, because would Charles pick out his own cufflinks? Barry seemed to do everything; and in his first book, he says that the reason he resigned from the Prince's staff was that he was, in effect, redundant because Prince Charles was married. I think that Barry was threatened by the Prince having a wife.
The allegation that about the cufflinks came from Tina Brown. It does seem as though Barry and Diana didn't like each other much, but I still don't understand why he would reveal that Charles spent the night before his wedding with Camilla in 1986, but that story wouldn't surface until 1992. I just don't believe Barry ever said it because I don't think it happened.
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  #738  
Old 08-31-2013, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I completely agree. That he allowed Dimbleby to include criticisms of his parents was cruel to them. Most people, by the age of 40, are past blaming their parents for their problems. Charles came off as whiny in both the documentary and the book. He damaged his own reputation more than he hurt Diana's.
I absolutely agree. It's one thing to blame your parents in your early 20's, but to blame them for an action you took when you were in your 30's is ridiculous--and to still be blaming them in your 40's is pathetic. On the other hand, people absolve Diana for things she did in her late 20's and 30's because she was scarred by her parent's divorce.

In 1981, Charles was a full fledged adult. I would also say that by 1986, Diana was a full fledged adult. Both had to take full responsibility for their decisions.

ETA: I will say that I don't think the goal of the documentary and the book was to hurt Diana's reputation. Dimbleby has said that Charles agreed to cooperate on the condition the book not attack Diana or hurt her reputation.
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  #739  
Old 08-31-2013, 09:26 PM
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Oh, I do believe Charles is whiny and hard work, but he has at least proven he can have a long term relationship.
There is someone for everyone. It is really sad that Diana couldn't find someone before she died. I certainly don't think it was Dodi. Hasnat Khan seems to be a decent man but I don't think either would have been able to live the other person's life: Khan couldn't live with the attention and Diana couldn't live in Pakistan. It really was unfortunate.
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  #740  
Old 08-31-2013, 09:42 PM
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This has become amusing. Yes, at some point they were both full fledged adults. Charles was and, probably, still is a whiny, fuss budget. But Camilla absorbs it all. For him, she is the best. He wrote things about his parents, which I think he has felt, to his pity. The queen is a good woman, she is not a mother, certainly not for Charles. Philip is delightful, but not for Charles. Diana could never give him the mothering he needed, which he has received from Camilla. She was insecure and a child in the beginning, had other problems. He does, too. They both failed. One died. The other has put himself in a position bypassing all the royal hypocrisy of marrying a mistress, etc. I give him kudos for pushing himself to this stage. Just "one great guy". But when he should have said I love "her", instead of marrying Diana, he had no backbone. It is also the mystique that when you are royal, you can marry anyone, but continue your life as it was. Diana was the biggest fool on earth.
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