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  #681  
Old 08-31-2013, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
I really don't think it mattered that Diana wasn't at Highgrove all the time. She had the right to be concerned about her husband and his broken arm. It was her right to want to go home and take care of him. It was CPB that shouldn't have been there in the first place and when Diana arrived, it was CPB that should've left not Diana.
I do not think that she had the right to impose herself on Charles at Highgrove if he didn't want her there. He was injured and needed to heal. Having an angry, estranged spouse force herself into his space was not going to help the healing process.

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Diana did her dirty work but Charles hands had dirt on it too. The heir to the throne was carrying on with a married woman, who had her own family by the way. Hurting his wife, children and letting down The Queen and rest of the royal family. The people in the UK, Commonwealth and rest of the realms had to wake up and see their future King and future Supreme Governor of The Church of England in the newspapers making a mess of his marriage and putting his wife and children though pain.

Diana's behavior was bad at times but Charles should've known better.
I just can't get excited about the fact the heir to the throne was carrying on with a married woman. It wasn't the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last. At times Diana carried on with married men and didn't seem to have much concern for the wives. As I see it, the only reason the Queen and the rest of the RF were hurt by it as much as they were was because Diana chose to talk about it and cause or at least co-operate in a book written about it. Oh, and she gave a TV interview.

What could Charles have done differently after their marriage broke down? Remained celibate while Diana took lovers? Would that be a reasonable thing to expect of him? He resumed his relationship with the woman to whom he is now very happily married. Fair enough, in my opinion.
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  #682  
Old 08-31-2013, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
What could Charles have done differently after their marriage broke down? Remained celibate while Diana took lovers? Would that be a reasonable thing to expect of him? He resumed his relationship with the woman to whom he is now very happily married. Fair enough, in my opinion.
This is probably stupid and looking in hindsight but from I've read and heard, Charles would walk away rather than scream back. TBH that would piss me off too. She hated that.

ETA: we need to remember that the schedule for the POW didn't have time allowed for personal problems
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  #683  
Old 08-31-2013, 04:33 AM
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I'm sure it was a difficult choice for William and Harry. Diana's biggest problem is that she never thought about consequences before she acted. I remember watching the interview and thinking about how her children and Camilla's children felt--but Diana apparently never thought about how the children would feel until it was too late.
I admire and respect Diana for her personality and humanitarian work, but she has done many things that just leave me guessing "what was she thinking?"...
At some times she was acting very impulsive and there were many people who were hurt by her sometimes irrational and thoughtless actions and behaviour. I guess she underestimated the consequences of her revenge on C/C and the courting of the media. The constant fight for media attention and approval was certainly destroying the image of Prince Charles, but it also made her look bad and overshadowed her otherwise very good work-her royal duties and philantrophic efforts.
It seems as if the love of the public and the approval she got from journalists and celebrities was a substitute for the kind of love and attention she has expected to find in her marriage.
The Panorama interview was a big mistake,it destroyed the last bit of respect people had for the BRF and it did backfire on her because she has said a lot of things to make Charles look like a bad father and mean person. I understand her frustration about her failed marriage, but it did not give her permission to act the way she did. She should have talked to a therapist or vented her anger at Charles and Camilla at home,but going public with everything was not the right thing to do. While she told many private things to Andrew Morton and other journalists she still expected the media to leave her alone when she needed "time and space", but unfortunately it does not work that way. When you are a royal figure you have to decide if you keep your private life private or if you give interviews, make photoshoots and talk to your trusted journalist friends. The media attention can´t be switched on and off like you would swith on a light.

IMHO the whole tragedy and suffering could have been avoided if P.Charles had been allowed to marry CPB in the first place, but at that time there was a lot of snobbery and the establishment did not approve of her "background".
It seems as if the BRF has learned from the disaster, I am sure that accepting Catherine was much more easier because they knew what can happen if one applies logical reasons to matters of the heart...
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  #684  
Old 08-31-2013, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Charles was a reprobate. He kept a mistress and then some of you complain because, Diana, tried to upstage that. Please.
Oooohhhhhh..Hear, hear. Learn,learn.Lessons of morality
His wife was having affairs with a dozen men, but he is a "reprobate" for having one mistress to comfort him..
Then what will you call that divine angel?

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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Please. The boys love their mother, the previous post is ridiculous. You have no idea what they were told, as they were children. The both include her in everything they do. Kate wears her ring. If they had any problem with her, that would not be so.
Every child loves his mother and father unconditionally.
But when my mom's interview is coming on television, I plead my Housemaster to let me watch it with all my friends, only to see her revealing all intimate details of their marriage, making a scum-bag of my father, and playing a victim, and still admitting her own affair,mocking the institution which gave me and also her our very basic identity, I WILL HATE THAT MOMENT FOREVER.
None of us are sure how many such moments William and Harry have had ..
But again I repeat, I will unconditionally love my mother forever. So do William and Harry..

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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
They love their father. He is a good father. They were young children when all this happened. They, I am sure have their opinions, today. They have never turned their back on their mother. .
Yes. As men of honour they always love their mother unconditionally. And they know far more about their parents marriage than all the self proclaimed judges of morality and fidelity..

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I feel sorry for Charles and Camilla
Ooh so kind of you, COUNTESS. But I am afraid your "feeling sorry" is not required. Charles and Camilla are more happy, more mature and much more loved and accepted by family and public.

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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
They were hypocrites and they have cost a great deal to many lives. It is too bad.
Hey did you happen to keep any count of the number of lives they "cost a great deal"..
BTW..If they are hypocrites..Then what is the one who publicly admits affair with james hewitt, and privately has a dozen more affairs, but still counts just "three" in a marriage?
Oh..maybe its not hypocrisy..Poor girl. He tortured her so much that she lost count of numbers beyond three..

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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Today, thanks, in part to Diana, they have arrived in many ways to being more open and less sacrosanct.
Today, thanks in part to Diana (and also Charles), many people have matured in their idea of marriage...That there is nothing like a fairy-tale wedding, and that you can also have a loving wife even if she is not a gorgeous photogenic stylish blonde diva (same for the opposite sex)..And finally not every word of a woman (or man, but Charles hardly spoke) in a troubled marriage is true..
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  #685  
Old 08-31-2013, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
This is probably stupid and looking in hindsight but from I've read and heard, Charles would walk away rather than scream back. TBH that would piss me off too. She hated that.

ETA: we need to remember that the schedule for the POW didn't have time allowed for personal problems
I think you are right about Charles walking away. From almost all accounts, he is not a yeller. It is more likely that Diana yelled at Charles in front of the children, not vice versa. Sometimes it is helpful to get some space during an argument, but constant withdrawal can be as destructive and hurtful to a relationship as screaming.

I'm sure Charles froze Diana out at times and there were other times that he could be very cutting. But most of the examples of his coldness to Diana (like the one upthread from Patrick Jephson's book) are post-1986, after the marriage had broke down.

I don't believe that Camilla was waiting at his home after Charles broke his arm, that sounds like another of Diana's "stories." We do know that in 1992, Diana refused to let Charles comfort her when her father died, so even if the Camilla story was true, Diana did the same thing.

I don't think counseling would have saved the marriage at any point. Their biggest problem was that they had nothing in common. Diana hated country life and Charles loved it. The miscommunication about that was squarely Diana's fault. Charles's interests were well documented at that time.

The biggest mistake Charles made was not to explicitly explain to Diana that he was not madly in love with her before the marriage--although she was in such denial, I don't think it would have made any difference.

Finally, I don't think Diana helped the royal family as much as she thought she did. They would have modernized eventually. The process had already started. Charles did fine with crowds and was credited for being a warm person before he met Diana. Compared to Diana, he was cold and distant, but it would have been fine if he had married someone else.

The royal family would have evolved more slowly without all the drama and negative headlines, but they would have evolved. There would have been ups and downs but they wouldn't have been as extreme. The royal family survived the negativity of Diana, so I think the institution would be at least as strong if she had never married into it.
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  #686  
Old 08-31-2013, 08:34 AM
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If Diana did not marry into the royal family, there is no William and Harry. No royal wedding with Kate and no George. The drama of the nineties paved the way for the happy times of today. Kate's uncle didn't declare that she was a virgin like Diana's uncle did because no one cared.No cared that the future king lived with his future queen before marriage.
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  #687  
Old 08-31-2013, 08:43 AM
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Just to point out here, Charles & Diana was still very much together at the time he fell off his polo pony and broke his arm in 1990. Although they had their personal problems. As I said before, CPB shouldn't have been at Highgrove to help Charles out. That was Diana's job and CPB should've been the one to leave and look after her own husband, not Diana. CPB was pretty much out of place and should've been ashamed of herself but I'm going to leave that alone because apparently what Charles and CPB was doing was right and Diana was in the wrong the whole time.

Those who are making excusing for Charles's behavior is pretty much in denial. Diana was doing her dirty work too but Charles nearly brought down the monarchy with his very foolish ways in those days. Thank goodness with good PR work and a couple of miracles, he's been able to convince some people that everything was his late wife's fault and that he and his current wife did nothing wrong.

I believe in forgiveness but lets not forget that the future King and Princess Consort past is also dirty and they turned families upside down to get what they wanted.
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  #688  
Old 08-31-2013, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
If Diana did not marry into the royal family, there is no William and Harry. No royal wedding with Kate and no George. The drama of the nineties paved the way for the happy times of today. Kate's uncle didn't declare that she was a virgin like Diana's uncle did because no one cared.No cared that the future king lived with his future queen before marriage.
Skippyboo, I agree that if Charles hadn't married Diana, there wouldn't have been a William or Harry, but there would have been other children. They would have been different but special in their own ways.

It hasn't been discussed much, but Charles was looking for in a wife who would have also been a good mother. Diana gets most of the credit for William and Harry's common touch, but Charles wanted to raise his children in a different way than he was raised. That is one of the reasons I believe the monarchy would have evolved without Diana and the drama she created. Despite Diana's lies, Charles was a good father and, if he hadn't married Diana, I am sure he would have married a woman who would have been a good mother.
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  #689  
Old 08-31-2013, 12:09 PM
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Diana was a good mother and she and Charles agreed on raising the boys different than they were raised. After Diana's passing, Charles continued to raise William & Harry the way he and Diana wanted. No one has said that Charles wasn't a good father. Diana never said that either.

Both Charles and Diana created drama within the royal family. It wasn't Diana alone, as some love making it sound like.
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  #690  
Old 08-31-2013, 12:23 PM
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I don't see the problem with Charles walking away from a ranting Diana. It honestly seems like a mature reaction. One person is trying to create a drama and the other refuses to participate. Now I will say he shouldn't have walked away from the convo altogether but returned to it when cooler heads prevailed.
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  #691  
Old 08-31-2013, 12:25 PM
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I don't see the problem with Charles walking away from a ranting Diana. It honestly seems like a mature reaction. One person is trying to create a drama and the other refuses to participate. Now I will say he shouldn't have walked away from the convo altogether but returned to it when cooler heads prevailed.
Agree. they always say it best to walk away when one needs to cool off before they something they will regret.
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  #692  
Old 08-31-2013, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
What could Charles have done differently after their marriage broke down? Remained celibate while Diana took lovers? Would that be a reasonable thing to expect of him? He resumed his relationship with the woman to whom he is now very happily married. Fair enough, in my opinion.
I don't think either of them should have broken their marriage vows. Charles is not the spineless wimp that Diana claimed he was, but he should have been stronger in 1986, when the marriage ended. He should have informed his parents and the public that they were unhappy and were separating. It would have been hard, but it would have been the right thing to do.

Diana, too, should have taken steps to end her marriage before she broke her vows. It doesn't matter who cheated first, they were both wrong.
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  #693  
Old 08-31-2013, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
I don't see the problem with Charles walking away from a ranting Diana. It honestly seems like a mature reaction. One person is trying to create a drama and the other refuses to participate. Now I will say he shouldn't have walked away from the convo altogether but returned to it when cooler heads prevailed.
Xenia, I agree about walking away to cool down, but if he simply avoided resolving their problems, that can be very destructive.

We don't know what happened between Charles and Diana. I had always thought that they feel into a cycle where Diana was constantly complaining and criticizing and Charles responded by withdrawing emotionally. However, Dman reminded me that Diana lied a lot (going as far as to blame a child for her nuisance calls to Oliver Hoare's family). It is possible that Charles did try and constructively resolve disagreements and Diana was too hysterical to problem solve.

We will probably never know because Charles doesn't seem to be inclined to talk about it. Just as well.
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  #694  
Old 08-31-2013, 12:56 PM
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Both Charles & Diana was too hysterical and was pretty stubborn. They didn't know how to stop themselves from embarrassing one another and making things worse. The media and tabloids didn't help matters by picking sides and blowing things out of proportion. It was a mess on both sides not one over the other.
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  #695  
Old 08-31-2013, 01:03 PM
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Those who are making excusing for Charles's behavior is pretty much in denial. Diana was doing her dirty work too but Charles nearly brought down the monarchy with his very foolish ways in those days
Sorry but your phrase is quite a nonsense. In a way you're quite in denial too,because both of them nerly brought down the Monarchy and Diana's behaviour was as foolish, if not more, than her husband's.
With a good PR, Richard kay, a book and a TV interview, Diana was a able to play the victim and to blame everyone but her about the demise of her marriage. But she was very much responsible, as her husband, of this demise.
I don't see any posters excusing Charles 's behaviour. I see posters trying to put some perspectives to this well known, or apparently so, story. Andrew Mortons's book is not a Bible after all, and it's just perfectly normal to try to find an unbiased view of the facts.
They were not a couple, they were two over sensitive and demanding individuals. They both needed a stronger figure. For that he cheated his wife, that's a fact. He admitted it. Is that great ? Not at all. But at the same time and in the same way she, fair game, cheated him. They could have been stayed married like this for 30 years or more . Maybe, who knows, there was some kind of agreement between them ? I don't believe a second she felt betrayed by her husband. How can you claim exclusivity when you have your own lover waiting at the door? This situation was, is,fairly common in the Aristocraty. We must stop to see the War of Wales through our "petits bourgeois" lenses with some popular moral values. Cheating behind closed doors was fine for the BRF let's face it.
The only problem is that the little private affairs of the Wales were leaked at the beggining of the 90's ( Camillagate and Squidgygate). I do think Diana was utterly terrified that it could damage forever the perfect image she had built with so much effort. As a shy girl, lacking confidence but respected by millions, the simple idea of being seen as a dirty girl surrounded by lovers must have been unbearable. To be a victim was the only escape. So she protected herself with the Mortons' book, telling her so called side of the story, seen as the truth by many. Then things escalated quickly and the situation was soon out of control...
It was the worst match of the 20th century and if these two were not so much childish and influencable the events could have been handled better. See Anne and Mark Phlipps, same situation, even worse because of the illegitimate child : bilateral cheating and leaked letters but they admitted the obvious, there was a quick and discreet divorce and more importantly :they keep their mouth shouted , as a Royal must do.
That's a dirty story i know, it was never a fairytale.
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  #696  
Old 08-31-2013, 01:19 PM
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Nico, if you bothered to read my comments on this page and several pages back, you will see that I admitted that Diana also cheated and caused a great deal of trouble in her own way. I have made no excuses and denied anything about Diana's behavior at all.

What I have witnessed on this forum is some people here placing a great deal of blame on Diana for the breakdown of her marriage and the chaos around it. Diana cheated, made phone calls and even blamed others for the situation but Charles also cheated, made phone calls and blamed others for the situation. I have seen people make excuse after excuse for Charles and his then mistress and made it seem like what they did was okay or not that bad and made it seem like Diana was the horrible person no matter what and nearly brought down the monarchy all by herself. That's unfair and very one-sided.

I think we should be fair to both and mention both of their mistakes and not bash one person over the other. If I talk about Diana's bad behavior, I will also talk about Charles's. He also nearly brought down the monarchy and caused a great deal of pain to other people. He also threw his parents under the bus for his personal issues.

I find it very tacky to blame Diana for everything and make it seem like Charles's actions weren't that bad or small potatoes compared to Diana's. That's a bunch of nonsense.

I'm being accused of being in denial and talking a bunch on nonsense, all while others on here are trashing Diana and making it seem like everybody else were angles or saints. Give me a break.
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  #697  
Old 08-31-2013, 01:32 PM
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Nico, if you bothered to read my comments on this page and several pages back, you will see that I admitted that Diana also cheated and caused a great deal of trouble in her own way. I have made no excuses and denied anything about Diana's behavior at all.

What I have witnessed on this forum is some people here placing a great deal of blame on Diana for the breakdown of her marriage and the chaos around it. Diana cheated, made phone calls and even blamed others for the situation but Charles also cheated, made phone calls and blamed others for the situation. I have seen people make excuse after excuse for Charles and his then mistress and made it seem like what they did was okay or not that bad and made it seem like Diana was the horrible person no matter what and nearly brought down the monarchy all by herself. That's unfair and very one-sided.

I think we should be fair to both and mention both of their mistakes and not bash one person over the other. If I talk about Diana's bad behavior, I will also talk about Charles's. He also nearly brought down the monarchy and caused a great deal of pain to other people. He also threw his parents under the bus for his personal issues.

I find it very tacky to blame Diana for everything and make it seem like Charles's actions weren't that bad or small potatoes compared to Diana's. That's a bunch of nonsense.

I'm being accused of being in denial and talking a bunch on nonsense, all while others on here are trashing Diana and making it seem like everybody else were angles or saints. Give me a break.
Chill, Dman. Charles and Diana are NOT equally bad..
If you are seeing from the "institution of marriage " point of view, both are equally guilty, and there is no question of supporting Charles. But while dealing with the aftermath of the fall-out, definitely Charles didnt stoop anywhere near as low as Diana..
Charles never publicly criticised Diana.
Charles never publicly questioned Diana's various "abilities" (whatever she has, if any)
Charles never helped books, documentaries and interviews giving them scoops of How Diana met her various lovers, what gifts she received from them, what she talked to them..
Like a gentleman (not perfect, obviously) he frankly admitted to adultery on his part and explained when and why he had to cross the line
And above all, he never kept a count of how many are there exactly in that marriage (and Diana should thank him for that..)
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  #698  
Old 08-31-2013, 01:45 PM
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Chill, Dman. Charles and Diana are NOT equally bad..
Charles never publicly criticised Diana.
Charles never publicly questioned Diana's various "abilities" (whatever she has, if any)
Charles never helped books, documentaries and interviews giving them scoops of How Diana met her various lovers, what gifts she received from them, what she talked to them..
Like a gentleman (not perfect, obviously) he frankly admitted to adultery on his part and explained when and why he had to cross the line
And above all, he never kept a count of how many are there exactly in that marriage (and Diana should thank him for that..)
Charles was just as equally damaging to this marriage and embarrassed the Monarchy (which wasn't perfect in it's self) and caused a great deal of heartache and pain to others. He too made his mistakes and the Camillagate tapes were even worse than Diana's Squidgygate tapes.

Charles also cooperated with a book and admitted on national TV of his adultery. That was embarrassing just as Diana's interview was embarrassing. Charles also had his friends intimidate Diana and some even went on TV to publically criticize her.

Give a break with this one-sided attitude towards Charles & Diana's marriage.
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  #699  
Old 08-31-2013, 01:58 PM
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Really DMan? Who did Charles make the phone calls to? Was it necessary for the police to be called into investigate the phone call? Who did Charles place the blame on? Did Charles ever try and ruin the reputation of an innocent party, let alone take pleasure in such actions and brag about it?
It is one thing to be an apologist for Diana but could you at least provide some evidence for your counter claims.
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Old 08-31-2013, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Really DMan? Who did Charles make the phone calls to? Was it necessary for the police to be called into investigate the phone call? Who did Charles place the blame on? Did Charles ever try and ruin the reputation of an innocent party, let alone take pleasure in such actions and brag about it?
It is one thing to be an apologist for Diana but could you at least provide some evidence for your counter claims.
Charles made many calls to CPB and it helped produce the Camillagate Tapes. Charles threw his parents (The Queen & Duke of Edinburgh) under the bus for the failure of his marriage. He claimed they didn't give him enough love and support as a child and he didn't know how to love and care for his wife.

Charles had his friends to publically put Diana down and made her feel totally insane in private.

For the time I've been on this forum page, I have read nothing about Charles's bad actions and the damage he caused. I have read endless comments about Diana's faults and the damage she caused but little to nothing about Charles's careless actions. Call me crazy but I think that's very much unfair and very much unnecessary.
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