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  #421  
Old 07-21-2013, 09:40 AM
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AGAIN, 'crashed' means not invited. If she was invited, but considered not likely to attend, and decided to come to the party she was invited to, it is NOT crashing a party.

I am not sure how old you are Queen Camilla, but I am old enough to remember when it actually happened, not what I read in Penny Juror's trash.
Unless someone on this board was actually present, none of us know what 'actually happened.' We are all relying on what we read from various sources.

To evaluate the veracity of the various versions, I never rely on one person's word--especially when that person is going through a divorce and is actively trying to make the other party look bad. It's natural for all of us to exaggerate other people's faults and minimize our own, but people who are going through a break-up are even less likely to accurately relay events.

Whether Diana crashed the party or not, the fact (as both she and James Hewitt admitted), she was having an affair in 1989, so I don't think she had the 'right' to confront her husband's mistress. I have seen a lot of situations like this in my professional life, and the only hope of salvaging a marriage is for the husband and wife -- and only the husband and wife -- to communicate with each other.

Does anyone truly believe that Charles would have returned to Diana if Camilla broke it off? Charles probably saw this as an attention getting stunt since he knew she was sleeping with James Hewitt. In fact, the whole episode probably made things a lot worse.

The key to salvaging a marriage is listening, understanding what the other person really needs from you, and then being prepared to make changes to accommodate the other person.

By 1989, Charles obviously wrote off the marriage. I'm not saying that Charles didn't need to make changes and become more supportive of his wife, but by 1989, he didn't see the point. If Diana wanted to save the marriage, it was up to her to the first move. You can't logically expect the person who has accepted the break down of the marriage to suddenly start working to save it. Diana needed to convince him that the marriage was worth saving and that would have meant they both needed to change. She couldn't control Charles's actions or feelings, but she could control her own.

To convince Charles that the marriage was worth saving, she would have had to demonstrate that she was ready to change. That would not have mean embarrassing him at a party or confronting the other woman. It would have meant seriously seeking medical help for her mental health issues, stop leaking details of their lives to the media, and actually giving up her own lover.
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  #422  
Old 07-21-2013, 03:07 PM
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With no real facts on what actually happened or did not happen, all we can do so many years later is try to understand how things were.

Personally, I think from the beginning, Diana always felt threatened by anyone Charles was close to. Including the staff. I think too that adultery was a very small part of the problem. From the beginning I think Diana was more threatened by the close, intimate friendship Charles had with Camilla and the entire Parker-Bowles family. She felt that she should be the closest one in Charles' life and everyone else could fade into the background. In fact, Charles did stop associating with some of the friends he was close to but Diana didn't like at the start of their marriage.

I really wish that Diana would have been mature enough to realize that a close, intimate friendship takes work and a marriage doesn't flourish by simply eliminating anyone else that happens to be close with your spouse. She would have been far better off to make an effort to get to know and fit in with the people Charles was close to. Who knows? Perhaps Camilla and Diana could have had a common ground (raising children) and everyone would have been happier. With ostracizing Charles from his friends, right there would be a good reason for resentment between the two of them. As the marriage disintegrated and Charles and Diana became unhappier and unhappier at home, it was only logical that one of Charles' first moves would be to reestablish the friendships he had been denied. I've seen it happen quite a bit in my lifetime.
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  #423  
Old 07-22-2013, 05:12 AM
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A very sensible and well reasoned response. I am in total agreement.

As to the way this whole debacle played out I have a couple of questions:

a. Why was/is Camilla described as Charles mistress? She may have been his lover but was not his "kept woman" so to speak, and:

b. Why was Diana never referred to as Hewitt's mistress? She too may have been his lover but was never his "kept woman".

It's just one of the anomalies that quite stump me.
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  #424  
Old 07-22-2013, 05:26 AM
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A mistress is "a long-term female lover and companion who is not married to her partner; the term is used especially when her partner is married. The relationship is generally stable and at least semi-permanent; however the couple does not live together openly."

A mistress may be kept, but it is not a requirement for being a mistress.

I think the difference between Camilla and Diana in the sense of their mistress-ness is that Camilla kind of embraced the image of being the other woman - she never seems to have been bothered by being called a mistress - while Diana was too busy cultivating the image of being the woman scorned to be the mistress. There's also the fact that when the public learnt of Charles and Camilla it was still going on, but when we learnt of Diana and Hewitt it was long over.
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  #425  
Old 07-22-2013, 09:31 AM
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Just a reminder that the focus of this thread is 'Charles and Diana' so it's more to do with the dynamics and changing nature of their relationship over time.

Taking into account what we do know of the interests, behaviours, attitudes, motivations, idiosyncracies and neuroses of both parties, there's an argument that the disintegration of the marital relationship may have been inevitable, with or without Camilla's later involvement.

This is the broad area that this thread gives an opportunity to explore.

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  #426  
Old 07-23-2013, 05:24 PM
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Personally, I think from the beginning, Diana always felt threatened by anyone Charles was close to...I really wish that Diana would have been mature enough to realize that a close, intimate friendship takes work and a marriage doesn't flourish by simply eliminating anyone else that happens to be close with your spouse.
I agree with this, completely. This was something that I think Charles and his circle never really understood, either. Diana was a teenager when she got involved with Charles. Some 19-year-olds are very mature; Diana did not seem to be. Charles was much older and came to the relationship with a plethora of world experience, and an "old soul." I don't think they would ever have worked out unless one of them was drastically willing to change who they were.

But, looking at this little bundle, the union of Charles and Diana helped to produce something really wonderful.
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  #427  
Old 07-23-2013, 05:49 PM
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She was insecure and needed confort. The only problem was that he was insecure too and needed the same thing. Two over sensitive souls are never a good match, they need the presence of a stronger figure.
Charles did find it at one point, sadly Diana was still searching ...
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  #428  
Old 07-23-2013, 08:04 PM
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I think both were looking for what the other couldn't provide emotionally.
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  #429  
Old 07-23-2013, 08:20 PM
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I'm not sure Charles was looking for anything but a wife. He had plenty of friends and interests and lots of things he enjoyed in his life, and well-established patterns of structure and behaviour, and I suspect he expected her to fit in. However I think that Diana was looking to be the centre of his life, and seemed to think that by excluding everything and everyone she perceived to be competition, she would have what she wanted. If memory serves me, she even went so far as to order him to get rid of his dog! Now his first mistake was doing what she wanted then, because that set a precedent, but I imagine life was a lot easier around her if she was placated. I doubt Charles had ever encountered anyone with Diana's demanding habits and changeable moods, and the chameleon-like qualities that presented different faces to different audiences, so I suspect he was very confused and perplexed and then she got pregnant and the pregnancy machine and Diana phenomenon took over and he became the secondary character.
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  #430  
Old 07-23-2013, 10:33 PM
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She was insecure and needed confort. The only problem was that he was insecure too and needed the same thing. Two over sensitive souls are never a good match, they need the presence of a stronger figure.
Charles did find it at one point, sadly Diana was still searching ...
That's pretty much my opinion on their marriage as well. At least they were able to let past be past and moved on to become friends in the end.
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  #431  
Old 07-23-2013, 11:25 PM
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I'm not sure Charles was looking for anything but a wife. He had plenty of friends and interests and lots of things he enjoyed in his life, and well-established patterns of structure and behaviour, and I suspect he expected her to fit in. However I think that Diana was looking to be the centre of his life, and seemed to think that by excluding everything and everyone she perceived to be competition, she would have what she wanted. If memory serves me, she even went so far as to order him to get rid of his dog! Now his first mistake was doing what she wanted then, because that set a precedent, but I imagine life was a lot easier around her if she was placated. I doubt Charles had ever encountered anyone with Diana's demanding habits and changeable moods, and the chameleon-like qualities that presented different faces to different audiences, so I suspect he was very confused and perplexed and then she got pregnant and the pregnancy machine and Diana phenomenon took over and he became the secondary character.
Perfectly stated. My thoughts exactly.
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  #432  
Old 07-24-2013, 12:10 AM
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When I look back at the Prince & Princess of Wales, I see a beautiful couple that shared a great deal of love, fun, was a great team and became great parents. They wanted to give their boys the kind of life they didn't have and they enjoyed a couple of happy years as a family.

Sadly, their relationship fell apart and they got a divorce. It was sad but they remained devoted parents and started to put the bitterness of the past behind them.

Diana passed away very tragically and left her three men behind to carry on without her. I'm sure they all miss her equally and still talk about the good memories they had as a family.

Charles & Diana wasn't perfect and made some bad mistakes along the way. They're human and human make mistakes. Both did things they shouldn't have and most likely wished that stuff never happened. I don't make it a habit to blame one person for everything because it takes two tango and bring down a marriage. I came to an understanding that the couple had a great deal of pressure on them and the media and tabloids didn't help matters at all. A great deal was made up about their marriage and unfortunately a great deal of it has stuck.

Despite what others say, I really do believe Charles & Diana loved each other and for good reasons. Their love helped produce two boys (William & Harry), they did a great job as The Price & Princess of Wales by representing The Queen, royal family and flied the flag for the UK and Commonwealth with the best of their ability.

I do miss them as a couple but I come to accept the reality of today. Diana is gone, Charles has remarried and William & Harry are doing well with their own lives. Things are good and-to me-it's all good.
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  #433  
Old 07-24-2013, 01:27 AM
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I never see that much love flowing from him to her. She was young and he was persuasive, and she adored him for a while. Then she got to know him, and he tried to avoid getting to know her, as he already had relationships that were fulfilling. Reminds me of many first marriages. I remember how much pressure there was on Charles to marry. He never looked natural, as he does now with Camilla, but Diana was far too young to see that.

They might have held it together if they had each confronted their part of the problem.
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  #434  
Old 07-24-2013, 01:35 AM
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I never see that much love flowing from him to her. She was young and he was persuasive, and she adored him for a while. Then she got to know him, and he tried to avoid getting to know her, as he already had relationships that were fulfilling. Reminds me of many first marriages. I remember how much pressure there was on Charles to marry. He never looked natural, as he does now with Camilla, but Diana was far too young to see that.

They might have held it together if they had each confronted their part of the problem.
I donno. If you look at pictures and clips of the two of them in the early years you see him behaving in similar ways to how we now see him behaving with Camilla. The difference is that Camilla always seems to enjoy it, while Diana didn't.

I don't think that Charles didn't love her, I think that he didn't show his love in a way that she understood. Likewise, I think Diana showed her love in a way that he didn't understand or couldn't handle. They had a lot of problems, the big one seeming to stem from the fact that they couldn't communicate.
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  #435  
Old 07-24-2013, 01:50 AM
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I don't think that Charles didn't love her, I think that he didn't show his love in a way that she understood. Likewise, I think Diana showed her love in a way that he didn't understand or couldn't handle. They had a lot of problems, the big one seeming to stem from the fact that they couldn't communicate.
I think that if they did indeed love each other - and I'm not sure either did - that they loved an illusion. I don't think either of them knew the other well enough to love them, and I think that if they had taken the time to really get to know each other then they would have realised that there was no foundation for a strong, lasting, relationship. Despite her declarations to the contrary before the engagement, Diana despised the things that Charles held dearest to his heart. They had no common intellectual interests or goals. Those early dinner parties must have been hell for both of them.
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  #436  
Old 07-24-2013, 02:02 AM
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I think that if they did indeed love each other - and I'm not sure either did - that they loved an illusion. I don't think either of them knew the other well enough to love them, and I think that if they had taken the time to really get to know each other then they would have realised that there was no foundation for a strong, lasting, relationship. Despite her declarations to the contrary before the engagement, Diana despised the things that Charles held dearest to his heart. They had no common intellectual interests or goals. Those early dinner parties must have been hell for both of them.
You raise a good point. Charles loved the idea of Diana the wife, and Diana loved the idea of Charles the husband, but neither knew the real person, just the one on the pedestal. In stead of getting to know each other she pushed him away and he withdrew.

When we look at Charles and Camilla we see a lot of little moments of them laughing and him reaching out to her - to hold her, to tickle her, poke her, etc. I always get the sense with them that he's always aware of where she is and what she's doing, even when he's not looking at her.

When I look at old pictures of Charles and Diana I see him doing a lot of the same things, him looking at her and laughing, him taking her hand, tickling her, poking her, etc. At the same time, in some of the pictures and clips it doesn't look like Diana appreciates or understands the gestures - he pokes her and she pulls away. He touches her shoulder and she looks uncomfortable. Her gestures to him tended to be bigger, and in exchange he looks uncomfortable and distant in them.

There's the idea that some people are snugglers and others aren't. I think Diana was more of a snuggler, while Charles isn't, and both attempted to pull away from the affectionate moments because they didn't realize that's what it was, or they didn't feel comfortable within it.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:58 AM
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You raise a good point. Charles loved the idea of Diana the wife, and Diana loved the idea of Charles the husband, but neither knew the real person, just the one on the pedestal. In stead of getting to know each other she pushed him away and he withdrew.

When we look at Charles and Camilla we see a lot of little moments of them laughing and him reaching out to her - to hold her, to tickle her, poke her, etc. I always get the sense with them that he's always aware of where she is and what she's doing, even when he's not looking at her.

When I look at old pictures of Charles and Diana I see him doing a lot of the same things, him looking at her and laughing, him taking her hand, tickling her, poking her, etc. At the same time, in some of the pictures and clips it doesn't look like Diana appreciates or understands the gestures - he pokes her and she pulls away. He touches her shoulder and she looks uncomfortable. Her gestures to him tended to be bigger, and in exchange he looks uncomfortable and distant in them.

There's the idea that some people are snugglers and others aren't. I think Diana was more of a snuggler, while Charles isn't, and both attempted to pull away from the affectionate moments because they didn't realize that's what it was, or they didn't feel comfortable within it.
I think most people are annoyed when they are tickled or poked. I don't remember a lot of videos with him doing that to Diana. There is a video on this thread and she obviously didn't enjoy it. If he did it often, he should have stopped. He meant no harm but one of the keys to a good marriage is to avoid doing things that annoy your partner.

I've said before that I didn't think Charles was in love with Diana, but he certainly loved her. During their courtship, he went on a trip and found that he missed her. I disagree with the posters who say that he just wanted a wife and had other companions.

It was very important to Charles for his wife to participate in an outdoor country life. He didn't take her to nightclubs or restaurants. They went fishing, hiking, shooting, etc...

On her part, Diana fell in love with the Prince of Wales, not Charles. If we imagine the same facts but, instead of "Prince" Charles, "Lord" Charles who asks her out, would she have accepted? She may have accepted the first time if she couldn't think of an excuse, but then would have avoided his calls.

She was young and fooled herself into thinking that she could enjoy doing things with him. It's clear that Diana honestly tried to fit into his lifestyle. There were happy times and I think they both grew to love the others "real" self. They spent time together. Diana did most of the compromising on activities. She spent a lot of time watching him play polo, etc. Charles went to a few rock concerts and they took many vacations to the beach, even though it was probably not his first choice.

Unfortunately, they were not able to cultivate interests they had in common and Diana was not willing to give him the space to do things on his own that she didn't enjoy. Which leads to the real reason the marriage broke down: Diana suffered from severe mental illness. She admitted to bulimia and depression, and I think she also had a personality disorder.

Diana didn't understand her own emotional needs and Charles didn't know how to cope with her unhappiness and needs. He arranged for her to see medical specialists (one was spotted going in and out of their house which is how the press knew she suffered from an eating disorder). One of the symptoms of mental illness is that the person doesn't think she has a problem, so it was hard for her to accept the help she needed. Our understanding of these illnesses has also improved over the past 30 years. People who are suffering now have much more effective medications and treatments.

Charles responded to her complaints and criticisms by emotionally withdrawing. The more he withdrew, the more she complained and criticized. The more she complained and criticized, the more he withdrew. It became a downward spiral.

Even so, I think the marriage would have been salvageable if she hadn't gone to the media. We all know how difficult it is to restore trust after someone has an affair. It can be done, but it takes communication. It's hard to honestly communicate with someone if you are afraid that your most intimate thoughts and feelings are going to be on the front page of the papers the next day. And if not the next day, the next time you have an argument.

If Diana wanted to save her marriage, she shouldn't have gone to the media. We know she was leaking to the media even before the Morton book in 1992.
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:19 PM
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When I look back at the Prince & Princess of Wales, I see a beautiful couple that shared a great deal of love, fun, was a great team and became great parents. They wanted to give their boys the kind of life they didn't have and they enjoyed a couple of happy years as a family.

Sadly, their relationship fell apart and they got a divorce. It was sad but they remained devoted parents and started to put the bitterness of the past behind them.

Diana passed away very tragically and left her three men behind to carry on without her. I'm sure they all miss her equally and still talk about the good memories they had as a family.

Charles & Diana wasn't perfect and made some bad mistakes along the way. They're human and human make mistakes. Both did things they shouldn't have and most likely wished that stuff never happened. I don't make it a habit to blame one person for everything because it takes two tango and bring down a marriage. I came to an understanding that the couple had a great deal of pressure on them and the media and tabloids didn't help matters at all. A great deal was made up about their marriage and unfortunately a great deal of it has stuck.

Despite what others say, I really do believe Charles & Diana loved each other and for good reasons. Their love helped produce two boys (William & Harry), they did a great job as The Price & Princess of Wales by representing The Queen, royal family and flied the flag for the UK and Commonwealth with the best of their ability.

I do miss them as a couple but I come to accept the reality of today. Diana is gone, Charles has remarried and William & Harry are doing well with their own lives. Things are good and-to me-it's all good.
Well said.

Quote:
A great deal was made up about their marriage and unfortunately a great deal of it has stuck.
And that imo was unfortunate. As some who have read or heard that made up information, often times have taken it as absolute truth. And mostly we have no way of knowing 100% what is true, false, or in between.
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  #439  
Old 07-24-2013, 03:12 PM
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Royal Contributor, Victoria Arbiter has said many times (and I agree) that there are all kinds of false stories out there are about this couple that has been circulating in the media, books, movies (etc) for years and it's nearly impossible to debunk or correct all the false stories. Just yesterday, I had to correct a member of my family on the false story that Harry isn't Charles's real son. I had to tell that person that the story/rumor isn't true and that Harry really is Charles's boy.

I think it's really sad when some seem to only focus on the breakdown of Charles & Diana's marriage. The couple had some good years together and their love for each other helped produce William & Harry, whom they loved and adored. Even though they went on to separate and divorce and Diana had passed away, Charles continued to wear his wedding ring Diana gave him until he became engaged to Camilla. I truly believe Charles loved Diana, appreciated the two boys she gave him and was heartbroken that she passed away so early, tragically and that his children lost their mother. I think he thinks of her personally and privately, especially in these last couple of years.
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:17 PM
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I unintentionally came across a long interview on youtube of Charles and Diana before their marriage. It was quite illuminating.
I had heard and read that P Charles was jealous of the attention Diana received but always took everything about any divorced couple with a grain of salt.
But watching this interview, it was so obvious that P Charles was SO totally deferred to, and he seemed actually surprised when the attention was taken off him.
Diana seemed polite and honest in her answers. The handwriting was on the wall, imo he wanted a VERY old fashioned wife who totally deferred to him. She was just too young and modern. He has found the wife he wanted, she caters to him.
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