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  #361  
Old 06-26-2011, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
...NEVER, for one moment, did I believe the marriage could fail, I wanted their marriage to be a shining example to us all...
I was the exact opposite. I saw no way that the marriage could succeed as I saw a girl in love with an image - not with the man but with the idea of being a prince and a man who was so obviously trapped into a marriage he didn't want.

I was surprised to hear later that they both claim it lasted about 4 - 5 years with both of them seeking outside lovers in 1986.

His actual comment was 'whatever love means' - a sure sign of the difference in intellectual thinking between the two as well - she giggled and said 'of course' and he - a thinking man - gave a thinking man's reply.

I remember thinking on their wedding day how sad Charles looked and how gloating Diana looked - she had set her sights on the future king because she believed he couldn't get divorced but that was no reason to marry.

I certainly didn't see any love in the air that day.
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  #362  
Old 06-26-2011, 05:50 AM
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A thinking man's reply???? He could not just had answered: Yes???? I he felt so trapped, perhaps he should have called it off. And if he is so intellectual, he might have been aware of her "devious ways". He married her to get his parents off his back with not much thought for anyone but himself.
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  #363  
Old 06-26-2011, 06:40 AM
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Olebabs, I feel ver supported by you reply. Iluvbertie, how could she, or anybody, seperate the man from the image? He is now, was then and had been, for as long as she had known him, The Prince of Wales and given by how much she was his junior I imagine there to have been some awe and respect of him on her part. Her giggle? well, as a shy girl, asked for the first time, publically, infront of camaras, about her feelings, I imagine the giggle and its' accompanying blush to have been a mixture of nerves and embarrassment. As to her gloat, I gloated out of sheer joy and delight when I married, I felt so lucky that HE had chosen me-might Diana not have felt the same? As you so correctly pointed out, there was as great an expance of difference in ther intellect as there was in their ages-BUT, it seems to be forgotten that he CHOSE to marry her,in no way could she have manipulated that decision.
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  #364  
Old 06-26-2011, 07:04 AM
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She manipulated it in the sense that she lied to him about what things she enjoyed - telling him she enjoyed country pursuits and she didn't, didn't take the time to think things through when given that opportunity.

Her mother asked her whether it was Charles the man or The Prince of Wales with whom she was in love and Diana allegedly said the same thing as you - that they were the same person. Her mother is also supposed to have had her doubts from that point on.

Yes Charles chose her - but her was also pressured by the press, the public and his family to do so - and he was on the rebound from Amanda Knatchbull - something that any new girlfriend who had any element of experience would have seen as a situation about which to be wary.

The reactions to the question about being 'in love' are some of the reasons why I sensed that they simply weren't suited to each other - her simpering giggle simply didn't match with his normal calm and mature ladies.

There is a difference between 'gloating in love' and simply 'gloating'. Kate was 'gloating in love' on her wedding day - she looked so proud of herself for having got him but she looked at him with love and tenderness. Diana simply gloated with a 'look at me' attitude all day - no love for Charles but simply a love of Diana look that said to me that she had what she wanted - to be a princess and nothing about being Charles' wife.
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  #365  
Old 06-26-2011, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by olebabs View Post
A thinking man's reply???? He could not just had answered: Yes???? I he felt so trapped, perhaps he should have called it off. And if he is so intellectual, he might have been aware of her "devious ways". He married her to get his parents off his back with not much thought for anyone but himself.

As someone who had listened to and read a lot about Charles in the 70s it was the sort of reply he would make - a philosophical reply. That was, and still is, the man.

How could he answer 'yes' when he wasn't even sure what 'in love' was - which is what his reply said.

He might have been aware of her 'devious ways' or he might not. He might have believed her lies early on, like most of the world still does to this day. By the time he realised it was a mistake it was too late and he was trapped into a marriage with a woman who couldn't make him happy but he would have tried to put up a front for the world and make their own happiness in private - Diana decided that having tried that for a few years to tell the world that he had been unfaithful - leaving out the fact that she herself had been unfaithful from the same time.
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  #366  
Old 06-27-2011, 01:18 AM
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Bertie, I believe you are very correct in Charles "whatever love means" reply. He was and is a thinking, philosophical man. When I first heard his answer, I thought it was dumb, but I've matured after all the years and now think it was a the best answer to an ignorant question.
I don't know how Diana's mother really felt about the marriage, although from Bertie's post, it appears she had her doubts, while the rest of the Spencer family and Lady Fermoy were pushing for marriage. I have had the impression for many years that the Spencer's, wealthy and near the top of the aristocratic food chain, considered marriage of a beautiful young daughter into the Royal Family to be a social coup. After all, when Diana revealed doubts to her sisters, they told her it was too bad as her (Diana) face was already on the tea towels. Not very sympathetic.
I believe there was a love between the two and both Charles and Diana contributed to the demise of their marriage. I think both parties behaved appallingly during the separation up to the divorce, Diana just as much as Charles.
If Diana was alive today, I think both she and Charles would express regrets as to their actions during the War of the Wales.
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  #367  
Old 06-27-2011, 02:20 AM
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I think you are correct in the assumption, that they would have regretted the whole thing. I also think, that by now their relationship would have been like that of Joachim and Alexandra. Amicable and able to be happy for one another as well as for their two boys.
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  #368  
Old 06-27-2011, 02:58 AM
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I'm not so sure. Mutual love is when each person feels roughly the same way towards the other. Merely having Love towards each other doesn't make it mutual. It needs to be roughly the same kind of love.

Brotherly lovely is not the same as wifely love - it's all love, but not the same. Was he ever in love with her, the way she was in love with him? I don't know.

Was she really in love with him - did she know him? I don't know.

But I don't think they felt the same intense way about each other (or else they could have made it work).
You say it well. One thing that was operating, I'm sure, was lust - and that can be a kind of love that leads to other, deeper feelings - over time. They had no time because Diana wanted it all at once. The experience of erotic love definitely would have galvanized Diana, being as he was (we are told) her first experience at that level.

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I heard Charles said was it the tv interview or was it the book(?) that he never truly loved Diana idk if that's true. But there had to have been SOMETHING there in the early years. Yes they were very good at faking it but the early years certainly when they thought people weren't looking the kisses/touches seemed genuine.
I think he did - you can't engage in passion like that and not feel something - especially when you have children together. IMO. I also think he was really trying. The myth (started by Diana) that he was 'in love with another' is not borne out by what we see in those very early years. Charles was trying. Knowing now what we know concerning what was going on behind the scenes with Diana, he really was making an effort.

There is something curious about the two of them - Diana could flash a smile and her inner turmoil was not evident to the onlooker. Charles seems to be the reverse - he cannot 'pretend' - the camera catches it all.

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Originally Posted by olebabs View Post
Just think if Charles instead of seing Dianas popularity as a negative reflection of him
Did he really think that, though? Do we know that? Just recently I saw a video clip of Diana and Charles with their two sons after their separation and I watched as Diana manuvered to have the cameras on her. Think about it - here you are in a public moment and you have someone doing that as you stand there watching - instead of coming to stand by your side, wave, and go into the building (whatever it was). Do you really think it was jealousy regarding attention? I can think of a lot of other emotions that might be going through one's heart and mind at such a moment.

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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
It is known that Charles in the beginning was very proud of Diana and the response she got from the public. But that changed when Diana started to use her fame and influence to hurt Charles, to upstage him and overall to show that she was the better and more important part of the "heir to the Throne"-couple. We know now that at the time the public = media opinion changed towards Diana, she was influencing it. So what chance had Charles?
Exactly so - what I was trying to say!

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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Diana once said that she and Charles would have made a fantastic team, and that is very much the truth.
Wasn't that in the Panorama Interview? It was one of the saddest moments. Sarah Ferguson has said that she regrets her divorce - I think Diana was beginning to regret her separation and the way things were going. She was going about 'the fix' all wrong. Its one of the saddest comments she made - reflective, an awakening awareness. I view Diana as a tragic figure in those years.

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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Charles as the older, more mature person should have been like JFK. My fantastic wife, isn't she great, etc. He could have used her popularity in a different way instead of being jealous of it.
JFK and Jackie aren't a fair comparison, I don't think - they genuinely loved each other and grew together over time. Plus they had an upper class but political marriage - both played around (Jackie took lovers, though not to the extent of Jack) but both kept their eye on the prize - the Presidency. They were a political couple - and Jackie knew her role.

Again, was Charles really 'jealous' of Diana? I keep hearing this mentioned. When one is dealing with a dysfunctional partner (as Diana was the more I understand about her behavior in private) - mother of one's children - I would think Charles was disturbed and worried for far graver reasons that being 'jealous' of her.

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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
I became saddened and angered by her disillusionment and his indifference. Even now, all these years on, I wish it had been different.
It wasn't disillusionment - she was being required to mature - to grow up - as we are all required to do in marriage. I have never interpreted Charles' actions as indifference. The more one knows about those early years the more one is aware that Charles was proving not to be her father - the man she could twirl around her little finger. Pouting and temper tantrums got her nowhere with her husband. I am always amazed when people assume that Charles only had to be a bit more 'understanding' to get her confidence, etc. Diana had an eating disorder for starters. Second guessing the spouse is easy at a distance. Dealing with a troubled partner is not as easy - clear cut - as people seem to think. A 'normal' couple would likely have divorced by 1984/1985.

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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
His actual comment was 'whatever love means' - a sure sign of the difference in intellectual thinking between the two as well - she giggled and said 'of course' and he - a thinking man - gave a thinking man's reply.

I remember thinking on their wedding day how sad Charles looked and how gloating Diana looked - she had set her sights on the future king because she believed he couldn't get divorced but that was no reason to marry.

I certainly didn't see any love in the air that day.
That famous quote has been skewed in so many ways, I think. I agree with you - but when I first heard it I also thought he was trying to be witty.

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Originally Posted by Katrianna View Post
Bertie, I believe you are very correct in Charles "whatever love means" reply. He was and is a thinking, philosophical man. When I first heard his answer, I thought it was dumb, but I've matured after all the years and now think it was a the best answer to an ignorant question.
Yes, an ignornat question. The kind of mindless filler questions reporters ask at such moments that take patience and adeptness to negotiate. It was a silly question - and because he didn't give the pat answer - the scripted answer - its been a phrase tortured into grotesque shapes. (Diana helped with that, of course, as she wove it into the mythology of 'he done her wrong').

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The reactions to the question about being 'in love' are some of the reasons why I sensed that they simply weren't suited to each other - her simpering giggle simply didn't match with his normal calm and mature ladies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
As someone who had listened to and read a lot about Charles in the 70s it was the sort of reply he would make - a philosophical reply. That was, and still is, the man.

How could he answer 'yes' when he wasn't even sure what 'in love' was - which is what his reply said.
Looking at the pictures of them both at the engagement and the difference between his maturity and her lack of center is so striking - it's wince-able. You are so right - Diana 'simply didn't match with his normal calm and mature ladies'.
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  #369  
Old 06-27-2011, 09:03 AM
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Whether they matched or not, I think they both could have worked a little harder to make the marriage work. I'm not saying they didn't try at all because I think they did try. I just wish the marriage had lasted and Diana could have been here to celebrate their beloved son's marriage.
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  #370  
Old 03-31-2012, 12:26 PM
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The above was posted on another thread and I thought it would merit being posted here.

That phrase made famous and used as such an indictment - 'to the slaughter' - they were both going to the slaughter. Just before Charles does that eye-wipe, the look he has he could be thinking 'Oh God'.

Its too easy and glib to say he was 'in love' elsewhere. (I am one who doesn't believe he was). Its on TRF that I've learned that Charles, too, was having second thoughts about the marriage, and through some reading have discovered that Diana's erratic behavior was already manifesting during the engagement.

They should not have married.

Some really good footage in the next video. If one watches carefully its revelatory about the warmth and closeness and normality of Charles as father. The last part is Charles' honest response about the marriage breakdown without ever once speaking ill of Diana, never once ascribing blame or compromising her privacy though we know he had/has quite a story to tell if he so chose. I never really see him in terms of handsome or not - but he does look good here. He is an attractive man - in his early 40's here, I think.

LINK TO: Prince Charles: his children, the paparazzi & marriage to Diana
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  #371  
Old 04-01-2012, 07:45 PM
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It's sad for Charles that there are still those who believe Diana's side of the story and take it as the truth. There is a part of me that wishes Charles was the kind of person to fight back against such propaganda, but I suppose he wisely doesn't feel the need to prove himself to newspapers and tabloid journalists especially when it comes to his parenting skills. This conversation about his "whatever love means" comment was so long ago, but I do have to agree with whoever said it was a thinking man's philosophical answer. Unfortunately the masses don't want to have to think to determine what he really meant by it.
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  #372  
Old 04-01-2012, 09:44 PM
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IMO there is Diana's side, Charles' side and then there is the truth. The bottom line is both Diana and Charles were not innocent and caused a lot of pain to each other and to their children. In the end both parties called it a truce and repaired their relationship. Sadly Diana died just when the healing began. Its been 16 years and the family has moved on and chooses not to dwell on the bad but to remember the good. Its just too exhausting dwelling on a tragic period.
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  #373  
Old 07-27-2012, 01:29 AM
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This is an interesting article about what Charles and Diana thought of each other in 1991.
Majesty Magazine 1991 :* Charles And Diana In Their Own Words * - Princess Diana Remembered
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  #374  
Old 07-27-2012, 06:29 AM
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I Think it is quite telling that Charles replies that he values a quiet life above anything else.
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  #375  
Old 07-28-2012, 01:42 PM
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Except for providing legitimate heirs, Prince Charles didn't really need a wife. He had people to take care of everything for him. I suspect that, if he weren't being pressured into marriage in the late '70s, he might have not married until later in life. Had he not been the Prince of Wales, he might not have married at all.


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I Think it is quite telling that Charles replies that he values a quiet life above anything else.
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  #376  
Old 09-03-2012, 03:38 PM
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Charles and Diana: A Rare Interview with the Couple
Charles and Diana: A Rare Interview with the Couple | The Royal Correspondent

A card sent by Prince Charles to Diana in 1980
Remembering Princess Diana | 15th anniversary of her death - Photo Gallery - KansasCity.com
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  #377  
Old 06-17-2013, 05:21 PM
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Charles was very much the senior person in the relationship.

They barely knew each other and Charles was getting tons of pressure from his family (Phillip mainly and the press) to marry ...then when it was out he was seeing Diana the media lost their minds and instead of standing up and saying hey I want to take some time to get to know Diana, he gave into pressure and popped the question.

She was a starry eyed teenager who saw someone who would take care of her and could (as she famously said to her girlfriends) could never divorce her. She certainly cared for him but emotionally she was rather immature.

I can't imagine at 19 having to deal with all that craziness. Also I think when doubts raised their head (as she says they did) prior to the marriage ,I imagine she like many other women thought he would change or things would be different once they married.

Unfortunately the media didn't lose interest and she was immature in how she handled her relationship with them and also her husband. Charles I fault because he was quite a bit older and knew the score. I think he's a bit selfish (or was at the time) and had no clue how to deal with Diana and quite frankly didn't have to if he didn't want to. Didn't help he had 'confidants' that he could turn to. Also I think it made him angry that he and his work was ignored by the media, all the focus on her, and that happened from day one.

I don't think she misrepresented herself. She grew up in the country, was known in that 'circle' of people, she'd been over to play with the younger royals as a kid. The RF knew who she was and how she was raised. It was well known she loved animals and had that fall from a pony (broke her arm IIRC) that kept her from riding more (although she did attempt to try it again after she was married).

They did have things in common. I think it was more about the people in Charles's circle that were the issue, not that they didn't have common interests.

More than a few marriages within royal circles have cracked up and they haven't had the intense focus Charles and Diana's had.

I do agree later on Diana definately used to media to get back at Charles and certain persons within the Royal Family. I think she felt like it was the only power she had.



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Old 06-19-2013, 05:51 AM
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...I don't think there is any doubt that Diana deluded herself about her relationship Charles, but I'm not talking about the fact that she didn't realize he wasn't "in love" with her. It was more than that: Diana didn't understand that he couldn't marry just for love.

Many people assumed that Charles focused only the fact that she was untouched and aristocratic (which certainly played a role). But one of the main attractions for Charles was that Diana seemed to be able to handle the media attention. From everything I have read, Charles and the palace were very impressed with her grace when dealing with photographers........ I think that is why Charles thought she was more secure and mature then she actually was.

In retrospect that was a red flag, but having someone who wouldn't fall apart under media pressure was something Charles absolutely needed in a wife...
US Royal Watcher, good morning. There is huge irony in your words that Charles couldn't marry JUST for love when HAD he done, the rest MAY have followed. One assumes that for whatever reason he denied his emotions and declined to propose marriage to Camilla with whom he was JUST in love. He used his REASON when deciding to propose to Diana simply because of what he assumed to be her suitability and judged over what was the few short WEEKS prior to their engagement. Maybe it was easy for her to handle the press with grace during that time. How could she possibly have known what was to come? WHAT a mantle to put on the shoulders of a 19 year old with no life experience!! The expectation that within weeks she would acquire the maturity of a seasoned Royal. Let's forget that within an appalling short timespan, 6 months? she was taken out of obscurity, "courted" by a man she'd barely had time to be alone with, become engaged, married, and become pregnant. By the time she gave birth at still not quite 21 it would all have happened inside 18 months and she had moved from being girlfriend, fiancee, wife, mother, Lady Diana, Princess of Wales/future Queen. I really don't find it surprising that DIANA became lost and that the persona she allowed the media to construct for her wasn't necessarily who she was but it gave her a mask which helped her to cope.

That Diana was needy wasn't Charles' fault but if he'd gone into the relationship with more emotion than logic he may have been more sensitive to her needs. Had he taken the time and trouble to get to know her better it may have revealed itself to him. Having said that, I don't know that a man existed who could have provided Diana with all she needed. I don't know that she ever learned that it isn't possible for one person to be that responsible for another.

Diana's raison d' etre was to find someone to take care of her and make everything all right, rub out all the horrid things in her past. Such was the level of her emotional immaturity, I believe she would have loved ANY man she believed capable of doing that. That she loved, WORSHIPPED Charles, to my mind is without question because I believe she thought she was making the one marriage, that whatever happened, COULDN'T end in divorce. She took no responsibility for the fact that her own behaviour would eventually contribute to it. It isn't possible to fall OUT of love with a person with whom one has never been IN love, so I imagine that Charles tired of her neediness very quickly. We are told the marriage was over by the time of Harry's birth, in less than 3 years. How sad. I truly believe that had Charles, at any time, asked for a reconciliation, she would have accepted in a heartbeat.
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:40 PM
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US Royal Watcher, good morning. There is huge irony in your words that Charles couldn't marry JUST for love when HAD he done, the rest MAY have followed...
Very interesting insights. I guess the question is "whatever 'in love' means?" As you note, Diana would have loved any man she perceived as her savior.

I don't think she would have married Charles if hadn't been the Prince of Wales. Imagine the same facts but, instead of Prince Charles, it was 30-year old Lord Charles who asked her to go fishing, watch polo, spend a quiet evening at his home with his friends. If Andrew (or Edward) had been the Prince of Wales, I think Diana would have convinced herself to fall "in love" with him.

Diana is the one who promoted the idea that Charles declined to propose Camilla when he had the chance, but I think that she couldn't conceive of the idea that Camilla may have actually preferred Andrew Parker Bowles at that time. I think that fact underscores that Diana was more interested in Charles's status then the man himself.

Diana was young at that point, but there are many 19-year old women who know themselves well enough to either get married, or understand that they are not ready to get married. Do you really think it would have been any different if she had been 21 or 25? I don't. I think a lot of the problem was tied to her mental illness and she certainly didn't get a handle on that until after her separation, if then.

Diana never took responsibility for her own decisions. Diana knew she and Charles hadn't spent much time alone together and she knew she was sometimes bored when doing things he was not prepared to give up (polo).

Charles knew they hadn't spent much time alone together, but he also knew that she had grown up along side the royal family. He thought they shared many interests and that he could help her read more and broaden her intellectual horizons.

He wasn't the only one who was deceived, there were other people in the royal family who knew Diana better than he did but no one said anything. If she wasn't ready to get married, her family should have stepped in. That is what parents are for.

I agree with your point that Diana would have reconciled with Charles up until the end, but she never figured out that she had made that impossible. I think she convinced herself that cooperating with the book would force Charles back to her side. After 12 years (and they had spent a lot of time alone together) she had no understanding of him at all.

After that book, how was he ever supposed to trust her again? Her "true story" humiliated him by revealing his affair while only hinting at her own affairs. She also revealed things that were very hurtful to her sons (the story about Charles's alleged behavior after Harry was born). If my husband did something that hurtful to our children, I would be out the door in a minute.

But I think her biggest failing was that she was very resistant to taking responsibility for her own behavior. It is difficult for someone who suffered from a severe mental illness like Diana did, but I wouldn't want to live with someone who thought she was perfect and blamed me for her own unhappiness.
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Old 06-19-2013, 03:00 PM
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We must remember that Charles gave a TV interview as well. He admitted adultery with Camilla and this even caused Camilla's father to stop talking to him for a while. Both Diana & Charles were doing some unfair stuff in those days.

Things like that are done out of anger and hurt feelings. Infidelity isn't easy for any couple to go through and when you are public figures like (Diana & Charles) things get even harder and frustrating.

I do think it's unfair that people throw a great deal of blame on the late Princess of Wales. She made her mistakes but so did Charles and although I like to leave those past events in the past, if I talk about those days, I like to present a balance view.

I also like to talk about the good old days because Diana & Charles's marriage wasn't all doom as people would think. They had some fun loving days as well. I remember when Charles & Diana was helping to develop their Highgrove Estate, Charles wanted to create a bunch of "C's and D's in the landscape of Highgrove House. The Wales's loved swimming and they enjoyed swimming in their pool at Highgrove with the boys. Charles & Diana also love dancing and they would take to the floor whenever possible, privately or even publically.

There was some good days of the royal couple on official engagements and once they visited a factory and had to wear protective hard hats. Diana burst into laughter due to Charles's head looking like an egg in the hat. She laughed and he even laugh throughout the engagement.

Do anyone remember Diana smashing a fake glass cup over Charles's head? Or the fact that Charles used to pop in and visit Diana at Kensington Palace on any given day?
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