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  #261  
Old 07-30-2008, 10:35 AM
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If I can step in here...

Members should be careful to avoid making statements or claims when they may instead be expressing a personal opinion. For example, "Camilla handpicked Diana" is the type of assertion that requires evidence or sources to back it up.

We have been down this road before and it is important that we don't become embroiled in a debate that may have no verifiable basis.

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  #262  
Old 07-30-2008, 10:58 AM
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Warren, I have read in more than one book (which I will dig through over the weekend to get the exact quotes), that Camilla Parker Bowles and Dale Tryon, as the Prince's dearest friends, made lists of suitable prospective brides and that the name Diana Spencer seemed to always come to the top of the list. The Camilla quote of ' She's perfect. She's a mouse. An absolute mouse' was from the 1985 article in Vanity Fair by Tina Brown. It was the cover article entitled 'The mouse who roared'. It was also in 'The Windsor Knot' by Christopher Wilson pg105 'How much the decision to go ahead with this cold blooded proposal was Charles', and how much Camilla's, is still a matter for speculation. But having now had plenty of opportunity to size up her protogee, Camilla made a fundemental miscalculation. When asked by friends what she thought of Diana, she replied: 'She's like a mouse'."
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  #263  
Old 07-30-2008, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Warren, I have read in more than one book (which I will dig through over the weekend to get the exact quotes), that Camilla Parker Bowles and Dale Tryon, as the Prince's dearest friends, made lists of suitable prospective brides and that the name Diana Spencer seemed to always come to the top of the list. The Camilla quote of ' She's perfect. She's a mouse. An absolute mouse' was from the 1985 article in Vanity Fair by Tina Brown. It was the cover article entitled 'The mouse who roared'.
But then Tina Brown claims that Andrew Parker Bowles has been Camilla's love of her life.... AFAIK Tina Brown has never had an insider's access to Camilla's circle so all she writes about Camilla should be taken with a grain of salt.

I can imagine how Camilla and others in the Prince's circle at that time discussed potential marriage candidates, as it was clear that Charles had to marry and rather sooner than later. It's what dimbleby says as well. What I don't buy is that a woman of Camilla's experience and age should say such a crude thing about a teenager - she must have known that young girls evolve and that a "mouse" was not necessarily what the Prince needed.
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  #264  
Old 07-30-2008, 11:18 AM
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Jo, could I could ask you to address your questions to the poster that actually wrote the comments that you are referring to? You only quote me, and I did not make these comments. Thanks. Additionally, not everyone accepts Dimbley and Dimbley only as the gospel on events. There were two sides to the story, two principle players who told their side of the story and countless books written about the story. It's not likely that any one author has the full and complete picture of what actually took place.

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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
We know from Dimbleby why Charles married her - I quoted these parts before. of course you can claim that Charles did not mean the things he wrote into his diary and in letters to friends, that he had in truth much more sinister reasons, but where are the sources for this?

But you're right: if Charles had been more interested in Diana and Diana's problems, he would never have married her because he would have recognized the potential for utmost damage she brought with her. But he saw Diana as possessing an "easy and open manner, warmth and enthusiasm for rural life", he thought she was "lovable and warm-hearted". To quote Dimbleby: "In the autumn of 1980, the Prince invited Diana Spencer to join a house party at Balmoral. Again she reinforced the initial impression that she had made on his friends. She was so obviously happy and he seemed so attracted to her that his friends warmed to a prospective love match."

And something else: could you please equally willing to name sources for statements like "Camilla handpicked Diana" and to offer sources for quotes which, if they are reliable, really can point to certain character traits but if they are only invented, help nothing on assessing what might have happened in reality. Because this discussion is not about fantasies of beautiful princesses and ugly princes, but about real people who have been part of history.
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  #265  
Old 07-30-2008, 11:19 AM
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Warren, I have read in more than one book...
Thanks scooter . I think choice of words may be relevant here. There is a difference in using a term with connotations ("handpicked") as opposed to Camilla and Lady Tryon making lists. In this case we could equally claim that Dale Tryon "handpicked Diana". Then again we have the claimed influence of the Queen Mother and Lady Fermoy on the selection of a candidate to be Charles's bride. If we get enough material on this topic it would be a good one for a separate thread, eg "Influences on the choice of Charles's bride".
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  #266  
Old 07-30-2008, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
Jo, could I could ask you to address your questions to the poster that actually wrote the comments that you are referring to? You only quote me, and I did not make these comments. Thanks. Additionally, not everyone accepts Dimbley and Dimbley only as the gospel on events. There were two sides to the story, two principle players who told their side of the story and countless books written about the story. It's not likely that any one author has the full and complete picture of what actually took place.
One has to see I think that Dimbleby is a reknown historian who had access to private papers and people noone else had before him.Plus his book has been changed in some parts according to Charles' wishes and been acknowledged by the Prince himself. Thus for me he is the first-class reference when it comes to what Charles felt and how he sees the things we are discussing here. I agree that Diana had a different view on things but after reading so many other books I tend to think that the way she is presented in Dimbleby's book is quite close to the truth. Because in the book Dimbeby does not take sides openly. He is very understanding towards Diana and does not go for the muddier side of the couple's relationship. So, yes, for me it is a reliable source if you want to present the story from Charles' side.

Ah, and I'm sorry, I thought it was clear enought hat I was ending the discussion about your quote in my message and went on to a more general wish, using the "you" more in a universal sense.
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  #267  
Old 07-30-2008, 11:30 AM
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OK, as for the Camilla hand picked Diana issue: Sarah Bradford in 'Diana' pg 62 "The shock of the loss of his beloved mentor, and the memory of Mountbatten's strictures were no doubt a crucial influence on Charles' increasing conviction that he must do his duty and take a wife. Camilla's influence on his life had even increased with the loss of Mountbatten. She was to play a dominant role in Charles's choice." Page 68 'That same month, Nigel Dempster, the gossip columnist of the Daily Mail, broke the story that Diana was Charles's new girlfriend and that his choice had been approved by the two happily married women who influence him most on personal matters, Lady Tryon and Camilla Parker-Bowles.'
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  #268  
Old 07-30-2008, 11:35 AM
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I am sorry but I still have the image of the love tryst in the middle of the hunt.....
What happened to all the people following the hunt on foot? Were they so intent on the disappearing derrieres of horses and riders they didn´t see Charles and Camilla lag behind. Then of course there is Lady ? who always falls off at the first fence, she always comes along late, sometimes gets lost and has to ask the foot followers which way the hunt went.....they shout to her just before some of them rush for their cars, over there Lady ? just go past Charles and Camilla over there....
Sorry, this is too much for me.
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  #269  
Old 07-30-2008, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
So, yes, for me it is a reliable source if you want to present the story from Charles' side.
Exactly my point. Dimbley is an excellent source for Charles' side, not for the entire story. I don't fault Charles for wanting to put something out in the public that showed his side after all that was written by the Diana camp, but I still think that it is unrealistic to think that the Dimbley book presents the whole picture. Charles had a need for good PR too just as Diana did and, at that time especially, a definite need to paint himself as a sympathetic character. It doesn't mean that I think what was written in there was not true, just not the entire story.
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  #270  
Old 07-30-2008, 11:44 AM
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OK, as for the Camilla hand picked Diana issue: Sarah Bradford in 'Diana' pg 62 "The shock of the loss of his beloved mentor, and the memory of Mountbatten's strictures were no doubt a crucial influence on Charles' increasing conviction that he must do his duty and take a wife. Camilla's influence on his life had even increased with the loss of Mountbatten. She was to play a dominant role in Charles's choice." Page 68 'That same month, Nigel Dempster, the gossip columnist of the Daily Mail, broke the story that Diana was Charles's new girlfriend and that his choice had been approved by the two happily married women who influence him most on personal matters, Lady Tryon and Camilla Parker-Bowles.'
But that is something different from "handpicked" her. Of course Charles listened to his friends' advice and as Dimbleby writes, all except the Romseys thought that Diana was a great choice and hoped for a love match. But to "handpick" her because she is a "mouse" is something that I personally can't see considering the personality Camilla has presented so far. IMHO Camilla knew all along that Charles would marry one day and she knew that he hoped for the marital home as a "secure family unit in which to bring up children, to give them a happy, secure upbringing - that is what marriage is all about. Essentially one must be good friends, and love I'm sure will grow out of friendship and become deeper and deeper." (From an interveiw with Donald Keay, published 1975, quoted by Dimbleby).
So it makes no sense that she "handpicked" a "mouse" for her intellectual Prince - I believe Camilla has always loved Charles and has always had his best interests at heart and thus she wouldn't have wanted him to marry a mouse, but to find a woman with whom he could be happy, knowing she could never be that woman for him.
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  #271  
Old 07-30-2008, 11:53 AM
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Exactly my point. Dimbley is an excellent source for Charles' side, not for the entire story. I don't fault Charles for wanting to put something out in the public that showed his side after all that was written by the Diana camp, but I still think that it is unrealistic to think that the Dimbley book presents the whole picture. Charles had a need for good PR too just as Diana did and, at that time especially, a definite need to paint himself as a sympathetic character. It doesn't mean that I think what was written in there was not true, just not the entire story.
No, it isn't the whole story, but I've followed Charles since I was a young girl myself and read all available books about him (Holden, Junor etc.) and the picture all these authors paint of him is very similar to that Dimbleby presents, only Dimbleby had a much better access to private papers, diaries etc. So while I understand a lot of Diana's reactions I think it was her mental problems which at one point made it impossible to reach her.

It's not like Charles and diana started out like most couples, they were not free to create their future life but as the situation was Diana either fit in with Charles' position or not. There was not much he could do and I think as much as he could he did. But Diana was wrong for the position, the wrong "consort" in a world more and more fixed on celebrity cult, she was as needy as he was (and Dimbleby is very open about that, too!) and thus they were doomed. But she could have gone quietly accepting that once their marriage broke down, he was still going to be the Heir to the throne and she his ex-wife. But she had other ideas and thus damaged the monarchy with her wish to prove that it isn't the Blood Royal that counts - which destroys the whole basis of a herediary monarchy.
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  #272  
Old 07-30-2008, 11:55 AM
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James Whitaker 'Diana v Charles' page 117 'But even now Diana was concerned about the outside influences on her husband-to-be: She had been told that the Prince's two confidants, Australian born Lady Tryon, known by Charles as Kanga (short for Kangaroo), and Camilla Parker-Bowles had 'approved' the marriage. Diana didn't particularly care what Dale Tryon thought but she was concerned about Camilla'
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  #273  
Old 07-30-2008, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
James Whitaker 'Diana v Charles' page 117 'But even now Diana was concerned about the outside influences on her husband-to-be: She had been told that the Prince's two confidants, Australian born Lady Tryon, known by Charles as Kanga (short for Kangaroo), and Camilla Parker-Bowles had 'approved' the marriage. Diana didn't particularly care what Dale Tryon thought but she was concerned about Camilla'
Probably a true statement, even though I found the Whitaker-book not to be very reliable. As I have quoted, Dimbleby writes that "his friends warmed to a prospective love match" - that is approval of a sort and Dale and Camilla were close friends during this time. But it still is different from "handpicking a bride" out of sinister or other motives. IMHO, of course.
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  #274  
Old 07-30-2008, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
James Whitaker 'Diana v Charles' page 117 'But even now Diana was concerned about the outside influences on her husband-to-be: She had been told that the Prince's two confidants, Australian born Lady Tryon, known by Charles as Kanga (short for Kangaroo), and Camilla Parker-Bowles had 'approved' the marriage. Diana didn't particularly care what Dale Tryon thought but she was concerned about Camilla'
Would that be the Whittaker who knew Charles, Camilla and royal sources so well, he assured everyone that Charles and Camilla would not marry before the death of the Queen? Dempster as you have said yourself was a gossip columnist.

The wording had 'approved' is a world away from 'warmed to the prospect of a love match', I can believe that his friends and hers would have wanted nothing less than a love match for them both.
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  #275  
Old 07-30-2008, 03:39 PM
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I am sorry but I still have the image of the love tryst in the middle of the hunt.....
What happened to all the people following the hunt on foot? Were they so intent on the disappearing derrieres of horses and riders they didn´t see Charles and Camilla lag behind. Then of course there is Lady ? who always falls off at the first fence, she always comes along late, sometimes gets lost and has to ask the foot followers which way the hunt went.....they shout to her just before some of them rush for their cars, over there Lady ? just go past Charles and Camilla over there....
Sorry, this is too much for me.
You forgot the ponyclubbers who always lag behind because they can't find a gate to go through! Now you know why I have a giggle everytime it is suggested.
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  #276  
Old 07-30-2008, 06:01 PM
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Diana, marriage, and the BRF

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But she could have gone quietly accepting that once their marriage broke down, he was still going to be the Heir to the throne and she his ex-wife. But she had other ideas and thus damaged the monarchy with her wish to prove that it isn't the Blood Royal that counts - which destroys the whole basis of a herediary monarchy.
I really don't think Diana has destroyed the monarchy in the long-term. Damaged it yes. And she definitely caused the BRF to change the way they do things in order to appear more approachable and relevant.
I really don't think she intended to do as much harm as she did. Based on her own terrible childhood experience she had a real fear of losing her children (imo and based on books that I have read). Yes, I know that was irrational but fear is fear and can make a person do some crazy things.
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  #277  
Old 07-30-2008, 06:05 PM
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competing camps

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Exactly my point. Dimbley is an excellent source for Charles' side, not for the entire story. I don't fault Charles for wanting to put something out in the public that showed his side after all that was written by the Diana camp, but I still think that it is unrealistic to think that the Dimbley book presents the whole picture. Charles had a need for good PR too just as Diana did and, at that time especially, a definite need to paint himself as a sympathetic character. It doesn't mean that I think what was written in there was not true, just not the entire story.
Agreed-After 1989 both "camps" seem to have their own axe to grind. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if instead of two competing press offices-Charles and Diana had one office from the beginning. Maybe they would have learned to work as a couple.
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  #278  
Old 07-30-2008, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
I am sorry but I still have the image of the love tryst in the middle of the hunt.....
What happened to all the people following the hunt on foot? Were they so intent on the disappearing derrieres of horses and riders they didn´t see Charles and Camilla lag behind. Then of course there is Lady ? who always falls off at the first fence, she always comes along late, sometimes gets lost and has to ask the foot followers which way the hunt went.....they shout to her just before some of them rush for their cars, over there Lady ? just go past Charles and Camilla over there....
Sorry, this is too much for me.
I'm not sure of the original reason for this comment, but the fact remains that Camilla and Charles had a mutual interest and it brought them together during various times throughout their relationship. I hope no one objects to a reference to Morton's book since we've been relying on Dimbleby quite a bit, but it mentions that Camilla invited Diana to lunch after she got engaged and she asked Diana if she intended to hunt after she and Charles were married.
Somehow I don't think Diana the first woman not to appreciate another woman getting too close to her husband.
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  #279  
Old 07-30-2008, 06:37 PM
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but it mentions that Camilla invited Diana to lunch after she got engaged and she asked Diana if she intended to hunt after she and Charles were married.
I can't see the problem. Charles loved hunting, Diana as his country loving wife to be, would have been expected to accompany him, that is after all what wives do.
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  #280  
Old 07-30-2008, 06:44 PM
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hunting friends.

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Originally Posted by Monika_ View Post
I'm not sure of the original reason for this comment, but the fact remains that Camilla and Charles had a mutual interest and it brought them together during various times throughout their relationship. I hope no one objects to a reference to Morton's book since we've been relying on Dimbleby quite a bit, but it mentions that Camilla invited Diana to lunch after she got engaged and she asked Diana if she intended to hunt after she and Charles were married.
Somehow I don't think Diana the first woman not to appreciate another woman getting too close to her husband.
I see your point but who knows who said what. This brings me back to my post on a different thread regarding can men and women be friends? I just don't think so. I have been married 22 years this year and I can remember when I was young and married-I did not want another girl looking at my husband much less be "friends" with him. Age has tempered alot of that irrational jealously but I am still cautious. I can see the perspective of an insecure 19 year old newly married girl/woman.

Doesn't matter if anything was going on-in those early years -nothing but it did matter how Diana felt. Prince Charles should have handled this differently.
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