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  #2721  
Old 01-25-2018, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I think one statement really can be applied to Diana's behavior and that is "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". No one is angrier than a woman who has been rejected in love.
This is the key point: did she feel scorned? I'm not sure she did. Feeling scorned is what we can infer from what she relates in the Morton Book and how she behaved post-book, but was that really what was taking place in those crucial 10 years before the tell-alls broke?

We have endless evidence of Charles liking her very much, and possibly experiencing the early stages of loving her in those days. He definitely was bending over backwards to meet her demands of him. Yet still she wandered, flirted, and that is why Charles had to be the one who was already distant, already self absorbed in Camilla (chosen for Diana's scenario because by 1990 Camilla was indeed the main mistress). It was a bare knuckle necessity that she convict Charles of 'not being there' for her and convince others of that. She wildly succeeded.

I don't think she was angry about being scorned. She was wrought over not getting her way, whatever it was in the moment at any juncture in the timeline, and that played out in an ever mounting series of mis-steps. However, this I do suspect: after so many lovers, she may have realized what she had in Charles, and what she had lost in pushing him away and playing fast-and-loose with the constraints of her royal life. He may not have been as bad a lover or husband or father or all-round person as she made out in her strange, later regretted machinations. She missed him maybe, missed that warm protection being his wife and his companion afforded. Maybe.

There is so much in this story to look at and really delve. Taking Diana's spin at face value is a dead-end. It's a far more nuanced tale imo.
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  #2722  
Old 01-25-2018, 09:21 PM
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Sally Bedell Smith touches upon this. She said that Diana "loathed" Fawcett, and thought he was a "overbearing bully" to those beneath him while being a toadying suck-up to Charles and Camilla.

Diana didn't always hate him. When she first moved to BP before her marriage, Fawcett was one of the staff members that she was very friendly and informal with.
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  #2723  
Old 01-25-2018, 09:37 PM
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I think Diana found herself trying to amuse herself too much. This, by no means, is Charles fault. Charles, by the age of 30, had his life pretty well established how it would be and at the onset of marriage, he expected Diana to be a partner in his life. His role as Prince of Wales is an extremely busy one and its not like that changed overnight after the wedding. The role took him away from Diana even during their courtship and engagement. She professed to love the country life but Charles soon found out that she wanted no part of his hunts or his friends or his interests. Like most people, Charles didn't figure he needed to drop his entire life because he married. He married someone that wanted to totally change him and I don't think that sits well with anyone.

Diana found the daily interactions with Mannakee attractive. I, myself, seriously doubt that there was any real romantic involvement between the two but with Mannakee, Diana had a day to day close relationship with someone. This is what she expected from Charles and Charles found it next to impossible to fulfill each and every whim of Diana's.

Hewitt was the perfect flirtation for Diana. He had been hired solely for the purpose of teaching the boys to ride. He was there and able to focus primarily on Diana and her sons. This led into a love affair that lasted for years. He was there when she needed him and pretty much went along for the ride and was able to conform to what Diana wanted and needed. Until he was deployed. Its said that Diana wanted to pull strings to get him out of it but Hewitt didn't want her to do that. This was the end of the "closeness" they shared and the relationship was in trouble and Diana started wandering again.

To get more input on this, I've just ordered Hewitt's "Love and War". The book that he wrote about their relationship. I know that a lot of people see Hewitt as a rat for doing this (along with other authors that have told their stories in books) but as I figure it, getting all points of view on a subject paint a clearer picture. For me, seeing as how Diana, herself, put her views on the relationship into the public domain by her own admission, it makes sense to me not to condemn Hewitt for doing the same.

This is what I believe that Diana never expected to happen. She would get her version out about the people in her life in the public domain to garner public support and sympathy but didn't realize that in doing so, she'd open the floodgates for others to present their stories and points of view. It went from bad to worse. The Morton book, the Panorama interview and finally the supposed tapes made before she died. Diana was not a master at damage control at all.

It seriously is like doing a jigsaw puzzle and finding the right pieces to fit into the picture when what you're working with is pieces of several puzzles all combined.
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  #2724  
Old 01-25-2018, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leopoldine View Post
Sally Bedell Smith touches upon this. She said that Diana "loathed" Fawcett, and thought he was a "overbearing bully" to those beneath him while being a toadying suck-up to Charles and Camilla.

Diana didn't always hate him. When she first moved to BP before her marriage, Fawcett was one of the staff members that she was very friendly and informal with.
When Diana first moved into Charles' household as a new bride, Fawcett was part of Charles' staff but he was not in the position that Diana later came to despise. At the beginning, it was Stephen Barry that held the position of Charles' valet.

There have been a lot of reports over the years that Fawcett was strict and overbearing and not just from Diana. From everything I looked at, it seems that Fawcett is still involved with working for Charles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Fawcett#Post-2003
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  #2725  
Old 01-26-2018, 12:07 AM
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I remember reading that Charles pinched Fawcet from BP for the trip to Australia when they took baby William. Before that, WAY before that, Fawcett was one of the friendly staff members who chatted with Diana while she ate ice cream and similar treats in the BP kitchens.
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  #2726  
Old 01-26-2018, 02:03 AM
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Great post, Osipi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aigulminimalist View Post
Perhaps after an affair with the bodyguard Charles just no longer gave a damn about Diana.
To make sense of this drama one has to factor in the character of the players. There is nothing in Charles' character as we know it to lend credence to the frame of a man without integrity and without a profound sense of duty, as we get via Diana's spin (which is suspect from the get-go because of her motives: self defense regarding unacceptable behavior).

IMO for Charles to view the marriage as 'irretrievably broken down' (with the gallantly offered 'us both having tried') necessitated some breaking point for him (as a man of integrity and duty). It is interesting that he offered in that moment the uniquely legal phrase (in reference to marriage and divorce) 'irretrievably broken down', which covers adultery, intolerability, and unreasonable behavior.

Note: character and personalty are two separate issues. A personality can be quixotic and difficult, but the character is a bit more solid. A key question: what was the character of Charles and what was the character of Diana? We can suss that out easily from what we know of them both. From that knowledge one can determine which of the two might have had the more lax attitude towards personal issues of integrity and duty. Which one would have thrown caution to the wind and done what suited them rather than what duty demanded?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aigulminimalist View Post
I also wondered about Diana's strange hypocritical behavior regarding camilla. Diana did not see the problem with her own affair with Hewitt. I'm sure Hewitt, bodyguard affairs contributed to Charles's coldness and alienation.
Something changed a man like Charles from being duty-bound to making the decision to walk away. What was it?

Diana would have us believe that Charles was never playing by the rules of the marriage game from the day of the wedding ceremony. Is that believable? For many it was at the time Diana so painted the scene, and for some it so remains (it certainly remains the go-to version for every tabloid summary story to this day, as Camilla experiences), but I find it is a scenario that does not jive with the character of the man.

The ease with which Charles' character and life of dedicated duty is trashed I find amazing, but that is rooted in a tabloid press that was playing by other rules, with an 'establishment' that disliked Charles' risqué views. Complicated forces were at play, with Diana being the unwitting tool. IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aigulminimalist View Post
I do not see what is the point of Princess Diana complaining about life, husband, camilla etc. Many women go through the same problems (without the same benefits, kudos, perks, privileges, etc) with their husbands, so what? She should have her blessings, stop tormenting the underlings and live peacefully.
She would likely never have stopped tormenting the underlings (like that characterization ) since she was very much a woman of her class. It is questionable whether she could have lived peacefully, ever. She was engaging in seriously unbalanced behavior by the time of the Panorama interview: recall that in that interview she was not just bashing Charles and then claiming (in the next breath) that she and he were a 'good team' but she was primarily front-and-center dealing with some wicked bad press: the Hewitt disclosures, and the phone stalking case that almost had the Princess of Wales being brought up on police charges. Good grief!

But in answer to your first sentence (underlined by me) the 'point' in all that she said publicly was to fend off tabloid disclosures of her behavior. She was defending herself. That's why she was 'complaining', that's why she took the nearest (Camilla) and threw her under the bus. It was all deflection from her. We saw that in the Panorama interview where she masterfully addressed both the Hewitt affair, and then threw a young boy under the bus for the phone stalking mess, as she then launched into her 'three in this marriage' and 'princess of hearts' and 'woe is me'. Masterful. In none of that do I see anything but the cleverest of cons. Amazing.
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  #2727  
Old 01-26-2018, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aigulminimalist View Post
What was relationship between diana, charles and Michael Fawcett?
In articles Diana's Secret Tapes March 1997 it seems diana suspects charles in bi/gay relationships with Fawcett (and camilla).

What do you think? Was diana jealous of Charles and Fawcett?

<< This is what the cameraman said are on the Diana tapes.
"She describes the incident that is now at the centre of what is happening. She spoke of her concern about Charles relationship with Fawcett. She believed it played an important part in the end of her marriage.

But time and again, she came back to Fawcett. She described how she came across he and Charles whispering to each other in Palace corridors (Kensington Palace). Several times, she said she didn't like the way he seemed to dominate Charles, not just in a physical way, but mentally also.

Charles is “too close” to aide Michael Fawcett. “What can one do when one’s husband is in an unhealthy relationship with his butler?”

On her loneliness: “I feel completely isolated. Charles confides more in Fawcett than he does with me.”

Of her marriage she is understood to say: "I am not loved. Charles just loves Charles and his position. I have tried to love Charles but he loves someone else." She revealed that although she and her husband lived together at that time, they had only a "father and daughter" relationship.

She attributes much of the blame to Fawcett, who was recently forced to quit his job in the royal gifts-for-sale scandel. She says she can't come between them as there will be "eruptions". And she complains that she and her husband can never talk like a normal married couple because Fawcett is always there "next to Charles".

The two men apparently spent many hours alone in Charle's appartment at Highgrove. Refering to this, Diana adds: "If Fawcett was a women I cuold see it, but what are you doing spending so much time with Fawcett and neglecting your family?"
>>
And in all of the above one has a clear rendering of Diana's character. Was she loyal? Was she discreet? Was she grateful? Was she truthful?

On one of these (Diana) threads I recently asked a very genuine question but it has not been answered: what memory of Diana exactly is being 'kept alive' when (for example) Diana is always mentioned by her sons? Regardless of public acts of charisma (and fashion, and includes moment of kindness, of joy, of laughter) Diana actually was the cause of a great deal of sorrow and tragedy for a significant number of people in her circle. So in 'keeping her memory alive' what exactly is being 'kept alive'? It is an honest question.
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  #2728  
Old 01-26-2018, 03:20 AM
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I've moved a few posts over to the Diana's Legacy: What is left or what will be left? thread
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  #2729  
Old 01-26-2018, 11:46 AM
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I definitely think that Diana smeared Charles and Camilla to save herself and because she, perhaps irrationally felt scorned. Things got exponentially messier when Diana cooperated with the Morton book which I think was motivated by her trying to control the narrative when she sensed, correctly IMO that it was only a matter of time before her and Charles' extra-marital affairs would be exposed. Having said that I don't think that Charles gets a complete pass when regarding the breakdown of his marriage. I look at it as two separate issues, one is the breakdown of the marriage, and the the other is that the breakdown of the marriage was messy and acrimonious.

I don't think that it was Diana's dalliances that caused Charles to feel cold towards her, rather I think that it was her bulimia and the ravages that that disease wrecked on her personality, Diana's other personality issues, along with their fundamental incompatibility with a side of jealousy thrown in.

I think that Charles tried early in the marriage, and while Charles may be a man of integrity, and that is arguable, I do think that he had a weak character, and when it comes to relationships I don't think that he was / is willing or able to do the heavy lifting. I think that Charles' weak character also played a role in his messy relationship with Diana going back to him proposing to her in reaction to a letter from his father.

I do think that Charles benefited by having his soulmate Camilla in his life, even though they were both married, and I think that Charles definitely behaved more graciously although I don't think that he was above looking the other way while others did his dirty work.
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  #2730  
Old 01-27-2018, 06:19 AM
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As per the Forum policy, we do not encourage discussion of the Diana/Charles/Camilla triangle, so let please stick to discussing Charles and Diana only please.
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  #2731  
Old 01-31-2018, 07:03 PM
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Originally, I wanted to post in hewitt thread, but it's probably appropriate here (?)

in addition to "half-open marriage" supposition.
<< James Hewitt has claimed he did Prince Charles a favour by having an affair with Princess Diana.
He says Charles was aware of his relationship with the Princess and felt it distracted attention from his own affair with Camilla Parker Bowles.
In a misguided attempt to revamp his reputation, Hewitt allowed himself to be filmed for a Channel 4 documentary hawking Diana's love letters in America for £10 million.
In the film, to be screened a week tomorrow, he tells the cameras: "I think Charles was probably grateful someone was looking after his wife.">>


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-188708/Affair-did-Charles-favour.html
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  #2732  
Old 01-31-2018, 07:09 PM
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I completely agree that Charles, by this time, did not seek a close relationship with his wife. And probably saw value in someone else paying her the attention she sought. He's not a stupid man. And he has always looked after his own needs quite capably.
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  #2733  
Old 01-31-2018, 07:24 PM
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I'm going to agree with the idea that Charles was, in a way, relieved that Hewitt came on the scene. One of Charles' biggest problems with Diana was her demanding of his time and energies and his focus on her. With Hewitt around and in the picture, her attention was diverted elsewhere and she was occupied.

If I had to give an example, it most likely would be along the lines of a harried mother with a demanding child underfoot. To have a babysitter come in so mom can shop in peace or just read a book is a godsend. It relieves a whole lot of stress.
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  #2734  
Old 02-11-2018, 04:19 AM
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Of course Charles was aware of the affair and he tolerated it. Largely because he didn't care very much. But its disgusting of Hewitt the way he keeps bringing the whole thing up and tyring to make himsef out to be the good guy
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  #2735  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:21 PM
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Formal separation

The Prince of Wales asked for a formal separation on November 25, 1992. This was made public in a House of Commons announcement on December 9. 1992. Could Diana as The Princess of Wales have asked for a formal separation?
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  #2736  
Old 02-16-2018, 04:32 PM
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Yes, she could.
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  #2737  
Old 02-18-2018, 04:37 AM
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However I think the queen would have refused, as she was clearly very reluctant to allow the marriage to end officially. I think she only gave way because if Charles wanted out of it as well, she knew it was really all over, and that if he and Diana were engaged in newspaper wars, the damage to the monarchy done by that was going to be worse than if they had a clean break
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  #2738  
Old 02-24-2018, 06:54 PM
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Yes, newspaper wars, book wars, interview wars were ongoing, with headlines getting more and more sordid all the time. People tended to be on Charles' side or Diana's, and it was affecting the whole country. I'd even go for far as to say that it was affecting the Commonwealth monarchies, because they were still officially our future king and queen. It was very serious business, not just the marital battling of a couple of celebrities.
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  #2739  
Old 02-25-2018, 01:16 AM
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I agree and in the midst of all the press eagerly publishing each blow by the Wales, the couple made their tour of South Korea. That was the biggest debacle and neither Charles nor Diana made any effort at being civil to one not only in front of the world's media, but worse, to their South Korean hosts. It still is embarrassing to view the videos of those two on that tour. They not only represented the Monarchy, but the Govt. of Great Britain and to a broad extent the Commonwealth, if viewed quite broadly, and they failed, but didn't seem to care.
I've read in books and articles that the tour was a last ditch effort by HM to save the Wales marriage because, indeed, she was reluctant to see it dissolve. After the humiliating behaviour by both Charles and Diana, HM finally had to take the position of "let's just end all of this now". She'd had enough and I think everyone from the Royal Family to the public had also. The only ones who wanted it to go on was the media. It sold papers and made great headline news on tv and radio.
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  #2740  
Old 02-25-2018, 01:40 AM
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It didn't end the marriage though. It only lead to the formal separation. Had the Queen wanted to end the marriage she would have ordered the divorce then rather than allow it to continue for another four years - the marriage had been over for years and there was no hope at that point but what was allowed to happen was the near destruction of the BRF while the farce was allowed to fester until 1996 and the final divorce.

Anyone with half a brain knew that marriage was over the moment the Morton book hit the shelves and this tour just confirmed it. Some may have thought there was a way back but no man was ever going to remain with a woman who had so publicly humiliated him as Diana had done with the Morton book (what she hoped to gain - who knows, I have heard she expected him to return but anyone who advised her of that was lying through their teeth).
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