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  #2701  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Charles said more than once that as his marriage had to last and as the woman in question was going to be queen.. he tought of marriage as a partnership, a friendship, more than a romance. ANd IMO he was right...
I think that friendship and closeness and common interests and a common outlook are better foundations for marriage than "romance" or sex. But I think he was attracted by her physically.. and he was feeling the pressure of "needing to get settled" and ther was a lot of pressure from the Papers, who had decided that Diana was adorable, pretty, young enough to be a virgin and mouldable..
I think you pretty much nailed it as to the expectations going into marriage. The special intimacy of "best friends" was totally missing from their marriage from the get go. In fact, I would even go as far as to state that, in a nutshell, was what Diana knew was missing, wanted her marriage to have and because of the extreme differences in their personalities, could never attain.

It was easy during the short courtship to pretend to love everything about Charles' life to draw him towards her. Keeping up the pretense for a lifetime was impossible. As time went by, Diana grew to deeply resent those that could have a close connection with Charles for the main reason being that she, herself, didn't. One thing that can never be forced is a close bond between two people and in going about trying to eliminate the "threats" and isolate Charles to the point that she would be all he had, she actually drove him away. Manipulation never succeeds.
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  #2702  
Old 10-13-2017, 01:53 AM
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I think she TRIED to form a close bond with Charles and I don't think that she tried to isolate him per se. But I think that she had convinced herself during the courtship that she was "madly in love" and that he was falling in love wit her.. and that it would all be rosy.. and when she got married reality hit her hard. once she found herself at Balmoral, NOT enjoying all the sporty talk and acitivtiy and finding the RF dull and scary at close quarters, she freaked out. But she did make attempts to fit in, and to form that sort of close bond with Charles that she felt was "perfect married life". however it was forcing herself against her inclinations. She wanted to be in London, not Scotland. She didn't want endless shooting parties, seeing Charles ride off hunting at weekends, cold wet weather and no shops or lively people nearby. So she would flare up at him and drive him further away. and I think that she would feel bad, and unhappy and convinced that "he loved Camilla who was horsey and country girl type, much more than he could ever love her".. and give way to bouts of miserable jealousy. And problaby the more she got angry or tearful the more Charles DID think longingly that it would be nice to be with Camilla.
And it is hard to blame Diana for being nervous that they lived so close to Camilla, and that Charles' old friends were all pals of hers as well, so she felt ill at ease with them.. But I don't think she really tried to isolate him, as such, she just didn't want him to see his old mistress again, why should she?
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  #2703  
Old 10-13-2017, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I think she TRIED to form a close bond with Charles and I don't think that she tried to isolate him per se. But I think that she had convinced herself during the courtship that she was "madly in love" and that he was falling in love wit her.. and that it would all be rosy.. and when she got married reality hit her hard. once she found herself at Balmoral, NOT enjoying all the sporty talk and acitivtiy and finding the RF dull and scary at close quarters, she freaked out. But she did make attempts to fit in, and to form that sort of close bond with Charles that she felt was "perfect married life". however it was forcing herself against her inclinations. She wanted to be in London, not Scotland. She didn't want endless shooting parties, seeing Charles ride off hunting at weekends, cold wet weather and no shops or lively people nearby. So she would flare up at him and drive him further away. and I think that she would feel bad, and unhappy and convinced that "he loved Camilla who was horsey and country girl type, much more than he could ever love her".. and give way to bouts of miserable jealousy. And problaby the more she got angry or tearful the more Charles DID think longingly that it would be nice to be with Camilla.
And it is hard to blame Diana for being nervous that they lived so close to Camilla, and that Charles' old friends were all pals of hers as well, so she felt ill at ease with them.. But I don't think she really tried to isolate him, as such, she just didn't want him to see his old mistress again, why should she?
OK! Deep breath! I watched the wedding with my then, soon to be husband with whom I was "madly in love". We married the following year and within 6 months I found myself in exactly the same position as Diana. It matters not that I was older, the feelings of fear and powerlessness were the same. The other woman -as was the other woman in Diana's marriage- was years older than I, she and my husband had common interests -which they'd managed to freeze me out of- we were all members of the same social set so naturally it was common knowledge. I tried everything known to man -or rather, woman- to no avail. ONE person can't try for two people. In a game for two, if one refuses to participate, the situation is hopeless. From a woman who'd felt confident and loved, I became a clingy, wimpy mess. I, at least, had the luxury of comparative privacy. Diana's situation was played out in full view of the world stage. How much more humiliating must that have been?

(The eventual and inevitable split was the best thing that ever happened to me. I did a degree, I retrained as a therapist, and I met a wonderful new man)
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  #2704  
Old 10-13-2017, 05:12 AM
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well with all due respect, I don't quite see what that has to do with Charles and Diana's marriage. It was differnet ot other marriages in that it was a public and constitutional affair as much as a private relationship. It was supposed to last for life and divorce was not supposed to be an option.
Diana was young and IMO very immature even for her age but she should have understood that.. Im sure she was warned during her courtship that "this was the big one and that if it didn't work out, she still had to stick it out."
However I think that she was eager to get mariried and ignored warning signs.. and was good at fooling herself that she shared Charles' interests much more than she really did. To be fair to her I think that Charles and indeed the RF probably ignored warning signs too.
but IMO BOTH of them did try to make the marriage work... But she was young, immature and really very unprepared for what she was in for as a royal wife. And her bulimia made her volatile and erratic, and probalbly her tantrums were caused by all the stress of her illness. I think that Charles tired too.. He told his friends that he wouldn't have as much time for them as he had had previously. He tried to accommodate Diana's liking for sunny holidays, taking her abroad in the winter, but he did still enjoy his country sports and went on with them.. and Diana problaby resented that, as she had less to occupy her in her first couple of years as a wife. He loved the children and seems to have enjoyed being with them as babies and spent a good bit of time in the nursery.. but really apart from the children they had little in common and although they did both make efforts to fit in with each other, it was hard for them and they problably failed to make the efforts to please each other as time went on and they became more unhappy.
IMO it was a marriage that had very little chance of success, due to their very differnet temperaments, interests, ages, and Diana's mental and emotional fragility.. but that's not to say that both of them did not make an effort to adjust to each other
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  #2705  
Old 10-13-2017, 06:43 AM
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I'm convinced that Diana's idea on what constitues a 'working marriage' and that of Charles were very different indeed. And they also differed a lot in how to bond. He wanted to bond over shared books, nature, country persuits, interlectual persuits and working together as a royal couple - her ideas where probably Barbara Carlandish and totaly romantic ...

the main problem from the start was IMHO, that she pretended to be interested in the same things as he was, but imediatly after the wedding going into tantrums over that kind of stuff.
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  #2706  
Old 10-13-2017, 07:15 AM
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well yes, I think that Charles saw it as them sharing interests, and doing engagements.. but the trouble was that Diana was nervous at engagemetns at first.. and of course tended to overshadow him.. and in private she did'n't really share his interests at all. I think she rather saw them sititng "talking love" all the time.. and when he hoped she'd go fishing or watch him shooting or whatever, or read books together, she began to freak out at being asked to do this.
I think she was good at hypnotising herself during ther courtship that she was having a great time when they were in the country doing country things.. when she found herself married and "stuck in the country longer than a weekend", she realised that no, she found it increidbily boring and it freaked her out. I think that the RF milling round in Scotland upset her, she couldn't relax and didn't realise that "at home with the Queen" is very formal.. and so she was getting more and more hysterical during the Balmoral bit of their honeymoon.. and began to get angry and upset when Charles tried to either coax her out to do country things or if she didn't want to go, expected her to let him go and amuse herself indoors.
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  #2707  
Old 10-14-2017, 06:35 PM
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I think that she saw everything in a rosy hue when she was around Charles because she was so "in love". At least one courtier, Dickie Arbiter maybe, said that they seemed to be "crazy about each other" when they were together at Buckingham Palace before the wedding. Even Stephen Barry, Charles late ex-valet said the same thing of Charles and Diana during their early marriage. My view is that they both gave up on their marriage too soon. Diana figured that the marriage was over after Harry's birth; yet she also said that they were at their closest ever in the few weeks before he was born.
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  #2708  
Old 10-14-2017, 06:46 PM
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that's one of the things that Diana said that makes me so dubious about the truth as she told it. I mean that I find it hard to believe a lot of what she said. She said that she and charles were at their happiest before H was born, THEN that the marriage had just gone bang, straight after his birth. Doesn't add up.
So I tend ot disbleive her sayng that she "felt the marriage was over completely" soon as H was born and Charles made hs famous alleged remark "its a boy and he has red hair."
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  #2709  
Old 01-20-2018, 08:50 PM
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I don't believe that Diana truly expected her marriage would end in divorce.
I think she was shocked when the Queen decided that would be the best outcome for everyone.
I think Diana was taken aback. And then of course, it was a done deal, and nothing to do but put on a brave face and move on.
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  #2710  
Old 01-20-2018, 09:07 PM
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I agree with you, Mirabel. As a 19 year old, one of the big selling points of marrying Charles was that she honestly believed that he couldn't divorce her. With that belief firmly entrenched in her mind, she trod where angels would fear to. Had she realized from the get go that it takes work to make a marriage work and that there would be compromises and effort or else the marriage would fall apart and divorce would ensue, I think she may have acted a bit more cautiously and wisely.

Then again, maybe not. Diana was Diana.
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  #2711  
Old 01-20-2018, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
I don't believe that Diana truly expected her marriage would end in divorce.
I think she was shocked when the Queen decided that would be the best outcome for everyone.
I think Diana was taken aback. And then of course, it was a done deal, and nothing to do but put on a brave face and move on.
Ditto, Ditto, Ditto! Agree. She thought she was untouchable.

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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I agree with you, Mirabel. As a 19 year old, one of the big selling points of marrying Charles was that she honestly believed that he couldn't divorce her.
I think the major selling point was that he was the Prince of Wales, the future king, and his wife would be queen, at the top of the social pecking order. That made Charles desirable above all others. Secondarily she may have actually thought that it was a position 'beyond the law', beyond all social norms, because she certainly danced the light fantastic for all it was worth for her whole tenure as the wife of Charles. She could be as dismissive as she cared to be and he could do nothing (so she thought) and for the longest time she was right: the Queen refused Charles' repeated requests for a divorce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
With that belief firmly entrenched in her mind, she trod where angels would fear to.
That's putting it mildly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Had she realized from the get go that it takes work to make a marriage work and that there would be compromises and effort or else the marriage would fall apart and divorce would ensue, I think she may have acted a bit more cautiously and wisely.

Then again, maybe not. Diana was Diana.
I agree. Had it been explained to her that a divorce was possible, we may have seen a very different scenario unfold.
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  #2712  
Old 01-21-2018, 04:40 AM
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The divorce was forced on her. After the Panorama interview which aired in Nov 20 1995. The Queen wrote to both herself and Charles and advised that it was best they divorced. Sadly, it turned out to be the death nail in their marriage. Considering 'Charles' future role as Head of Church of England and 'Defender of the Faith', I don't think she ever thought that her Majesty would advise they divorce. Which leads me to believe Diana was set up. They separated (unofficially) in 1992 (or thereabouts). If memory serves me correctly, in English Law, any divorce had to be preceded by a 2 year cooling period (to allow the parties the opportunity to come to their senses and hopefully reconcile). In 1995, the 2 year period was up and she played into their hands.

I cannot claim to know but if I was to hazard a guess I would say I think there's a myriad of reasons
a) She married him for love, moreover she was a virgin when she married him. So when he strayed she felt terribly let down, insulted, used and rejected. And rightly so.
b) as a teenager she had gorged herself on romantic novels, one can only surmise that she had this vision of what love should be, subsequently she felt some type of way when Charles strayed from the script.
c) she had an obsessive personality. Domestically she was extremely neat and tidy so I suspect she just couldn't accept the mess that was her marriage.
d) she never understood her role(s) from the beginning. She failed to tackle the reading material provided by the Royal Family- about the Royal Family more so previous on the Previous 'Princess' of Wales). Because of this she never quite realised that she had married a man and an Institution. An institution that many relied upon to play a function. An Institution that will be protected at all costs until it becomes untenable to do so.

I understand her rage, but I just don't understand how she played the game so badly. The Andrew Morton book 'Diana: Her True Story was a cannon of mammoth proportions. She shredded Charles to pieces, his reputation was in tatters. She should have left it at that and focused on her role as Mother of the Future King and global icon. The combination of these two roles meant that she was a very influential person in her own right. The Panorama interview was ill advised.

Diana cannot be neatly boxed into a Saint or Sinner. I think there are many lessons to be learnt from her life. It's a pity how things ended.
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  #2713  
Old 01-21-2018, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
Beautifully summed up, Osipi.



Interesting 'take' on Charles. Your opinion, of course, but I go by the character of the man we know. I've no doubt that Charles may have personal issues (as do we all) but I do see him as a man of integrity and discretion (never once has he spoken ill of Diana). We will never fully know what Charles was dealing with regarding Diana's imbalance (nor she of him and how he triggered her). We have some clue in the 'Portrait of a Troubled Princess' book (a harrowing read which I have never been able to finish).

My 'take' on Diana was she was never intimidated by Charles' 'seniority'. Quite the reverse, she dictated to him from nearly the get-go, and threw substantial fits if he did not abide by her wishes. Not exactly the kind of behavior that would have opened up an already cautious Charles. In most of this we have to accept people's limitations and not judge them for those limitations. JMO.

EDIT: Remember: for the sit-down talk to have sincerity, Diana would have had to have been willing to own up to her own flirtations, and her own long-standing love affair with Hewitt. In that scenario, which among the two might not have wanted to 'negotiate'? I have my answer, what would be yours?
I don't believe either had the emotional tools necessary to enable such intimate dialogue -MANY don't- because I don't believe it was ever demonstrated to them by their parents. You speak of "going by the character of the man (or even woman) we know" but it's my job to see behind the mask which we all offer for public viewing. I'm not judging. I'm calling it as I see it.................and I remain very aware that 'wide-eyed innocent ingenue's' may also be inviting us to believe that their wide-eyed innocence is the real thing.
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  #2714  
Old 01-21-2018, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by aigulminimalist View Post
[....]
The Andrew Morton book 'Diana: Her True Story was a cannon of mammoth proportions. She shredded Charles to pieces [....].
She mainly shredded herself to pieces, she blew herself up.

The Prince of Wales is still very much The Prince of Wales and the future King. He will be married longer to the lady she despised to much, than he was married to Diana. That lady once will be the King's spouse, not Diana.

With that book she tried to blow up the future King but essentially it backfired in everything to her. She lost her marriage, she lost her position, she lost her aura, as it is doubtful if today's going-to-be 60 years old Lady Diana Al-Fayed or Lady Diana Khan would still be that "iconic" as when she still would have been Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales.

"She shredded Charles to pieces" = replace "Charles" with "herself".
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  #2715  
Old 01-22-2018, 12:54 AM
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Diana wasn't ill-advised on the Panorama interview. She was advised by several not to do it. She went ahead and did it anyway and that also blew up in her face. She had had sympathy from the Queen and Philip with the Charles/Camilla affair, but when she attacked Charles by questioning his ability to become King among other things, the Royal Family circled the wagons to defend one of the family. Between the book and interview, she stewed her own goose.
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  #2716  
Old 01-25-2018, 05:11 AM
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I think one statement really can be applied to Diana's behavior and that is "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". No one is angrier than a woman who has been rejected in love.

Whatever was perceived to be done to Diana, in her mind, was held onto like a starving dog with a bone and also became her excuses for whatever she felt she had to do be it affairs, books, tapes, or confrontations.

Lets face it. The woman was not adept at having good relationships with people in her private life.
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  #2717  
Old 01-25-2018, 05:48 AM
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When all is said and done....the Charles and Diana saga always boils down to this basic fact....they were not right for each other and should never have married.
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  #2718  
Old 01-25-2018, 07:37 AM
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What was relationship between diana, charles and Michael Fawcett?
In articles Diana's Secret Tapes March 1997 it seems diana suspects charles in bi/gay relationships with Fawcett (and camilla).

What do you think? Was diana jealous of Charles and Fawcett?

<< This is what the cameraman said are on the Diana tapes.
"She describes the incident that is now at the centre of what is happening. She spoke of her concern about Charles relationship with Fawcett. She believed it played an important part in the end of her marriage.

But time and again, she came back to Fawcett. She described how she came across he and Charles whispering to each other in Palace corridors (Kensington Palace). Several times, she said she didn't like the way he seemed to dominate Charles, not just in a physical way, but mentally also.

Charles is “too close” to aide Michael Fawcett. “What can one do when one’s husband is in an unhealthy relationship with his butler?”

On her loneliness: “I feel completely isolated. Charles confides more in Fawcett than he does with me.”

Of her marriage she is understood to say: "I am not loved. Charles just loves Charles and his position. I have tried to love Charles but he loves someone else." She revealed that although she and her husband lived together at that time, they had only a "father and daughter" relationship.

She attributes much of the blame to Fawcett, who was recently forced to quit his job in the royal gifts-for-sale scandel. She says she can't come between them as there will be "eruptions". And she complains that she and her husband can never talk like a normal married couple because Fawcett is always there "next to Charles".

The two men apparently spent many hours alone in Charle's appartment at Highgrove. Refering to this, Diana adds: "If Fawcett was a women I cuold see it, but what are you doing spending so much time with Fawcett and neglecting your family?"
>>
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  #2719  
Old 01-25-2018, 05:51 PM
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One thing that remained true throughout the Wales marriage is the fact that Diana resented *anyone* that was close to Charles. Didn't matter what position one held or what his job was, they got too close to Charles and Diana got suspicious and resented them.

Charles was known as the "action man" during his prime years and that didn't only apply to his pursuit of women. Charles is basically a prime example of a workaholic. From the time he rises until its time to retire for the night, he's always doing something. This is true to this day. He needs staff around him to keep things straight.

Fawcett was the not the first valet to Charles that Diana resented. Stephen Barry also found he couldn't work for Charles any longer after Diana came on the scene. Diana resented Barry doing his job of picking out clothes for Charles to wear as she felt that was *her* job. I believe I've posted a link elsewhere that lists all the household staff that were pretty much ousted or quit because of conflicts with Diana.

It doesn't surprise me one bit about anything Diana would have said about Fawcett. She was pretty good at conjuring up things in her own head about what was going on and spinning them into her "truth". As I've said before, I wouldn't take anything that Diana has supposedly said as gospel. She was a master of fabrication and portraying things to make things look like "poor little old me" being conspired against and making her life miserable.

With Diana, either she liked you or she didn't like you. If she didn't like you, she'd definitely let the reasons be known.

BTW: a good book I've read is Stephen Barry's " Royal Service: My Twelve Years as Valet" which was published in 1983 and I actually have ordered and waiting for "Royal Secrets: The View from Downstairs" published in 1985. Mr. Barry died in 1986.

We have to remember too that Diana was good at spinning things for the press and its not unusual for articles that have been printed to be slanted in Diana's favor with what she wanted put "out there". Its a totally different ball of wax when you read books by various members of the household (even one by her RPO, Ken Wharfe) or those that actually knew Diana. There are also good reads that delve into Diana's personality and why she acted the way she did. Each work adds a bit more to the puzzle that was Diana. Very complex puzzle.
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  #2720  
Old 01-25-2018, 06:04 PM
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Thanks Osipi, forgot about Mr. Barry. Thanks for the book tip!
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