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  #2641  
Old 08-19-2017, 07:55 PM
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Yes, Diana was afraid of people selling her out...and in some cases she was correct in that fear.

We rarely hear nowadays for instance of Camilla and the editor of the Sun newspaper keeping regularly in touch for nearly ten years from 1981, (one might ask why) or of people like Nicholas Soames (one of Charles's greatest friends) questioning Diana's sanity to the Press.

Or for that matter, Emillie van Cutsem, whom Diana thought of as a second mother when she was a young bride, being only one of several who offered their homes to Charles and his mistress for their liaisons later in the marriage. In fact, according to penny Junor's bio on Camilla this 'motherly' woman was the one who 'persuaded' Camilla to meet Charles again in the first place.

As for Diana giving interviews Charles's interview with Dimbleby came first. Charles didn't mind spilling the beans about Mrs PB on that occasion to millions of viewers. However that backfired as the public reacted badly.

According to Sarah Bradford, Charles publicly blamed his Private Secretary for that interview when he himself had been persuaded into it by Jonathon Dimbleby. He then asked the Duchess of Westminster for her view on his interview. When she politely stated that she didn't think it was a good idea he didn't speak to her for the rest of the weekend. (They were fellow guests at a house party.)

So please let's not pretend here that Charles wasn't and isn't capable of pettiness and petulant behaviour, or using the media for his own ends, or allowing his friends to do so. Or of manipulating his own image with favourable stories. Mark Bolland, remember him?
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  #2642  
Old 08-19-2017, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Yes, Diana was afraid of people selling her out...and in some cases she was correct in that fear.

We rarely hear nowadays for instance of Camilla and the editor of the Sun newspaper keeping regularly in touch for nearly ten years from 1981, (one might ask why) or of people like Nicholas Soames (one of Charles's greatest friends) questioning Diana's sanity to the Press.

Or for that matter, Emillie van Cutsem, whom Diana thought of as a second mother when she was a young bride, being only one of several who offered their homes to Charles and his mistress for their liaisons later in the marriage. In fact, according to penny Junor's bio on Camilla this 'motherly' woman was the one who 'persuaded' Camilla to meet Charles again in the first place.

As for Diana giving interviews Charles's interview with Dimbleby came first. Charles didn't mind spilling the beans about Mrs PB on that occasion to millions of viewers. However that backfired as the public reacted badly.

According to Sarah Bradford, Charles publicly blamed his Private Secretary for that interview when he himself had been persuaded into it by Jonathon Dimbleby. He then asked the Duchess of Westminster for her view on his interview. When she politely stated that she didn't think it was a good idea he didn't speak to her for the rest of the weekend. (They were fellow guests at a house party.)

So please let's not pretend here that Charles wasn't and isn't capable of pettiness and petulant behaviour, or using the media for his own ends, or allowing his friends to do so. Or of manipulating his own image with favourable stories. Mark Bolland, remember him?
You are quite right. Diana had her insecurities and was, most probably, clingy. She thought she was his wife and to that end, his loyalty would be hers. That he had a better option for himself was his problem. I don't believe he ever gave up or would give up Camilla. She was his love. Right or wrong. And the puzzle didn't fit. He is a petulant and petty man at times, as has been reported. Remember he is the Prince Of Wales. He has been spoiled from the start. He had expectations and never was he thinking he would taken second seat to his wife. Now, he has what he wants. SDo, for him all is good.
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  #2643  
Old 08-19-2017, 08:27 PM
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Life has a way of bringing out the best in people and the worse in people and no one is an exception.

In a marriage, it takes two people to make it work or two people to make it hell on earth. The problems between Diana and Charles were so diverse and complicated there was no way that they could make it work. All the crap that's been in the public eye and the interviews and the tell all books and the finger pointing are the effects of a marriage in turmoil. The marriage started out with the best intentions and we all know what road best intentions pave.

One thing did come out of it that is good and that is that short courtships and quick engagements because they look good on paper don't cut it anymore. Its good that now couples are encouraged to know that they mesh together in ordinary life and have trial and error before taking those vows. I really think that is the main factor why Diana and Charles' marriage didn't work. They had no clue of who the other person really was by experiencing living and being with each other. They married in haste and really, really repented that move for years afterwards.
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  #2644  
Old 08-19-2017, 08:32 PM
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I believe that Diana's ability to believe that she was loveable lay at the base of her problems. She needed constant positive reinforcement, Charles telling her she was loved only covered that moment. Every day he needed to "prove" he loved her.

Believing herself unloved she saw other friends of either sex as competition. She didn't quite grasp that love multiplied exponentially but rather seemed to believe any attention, praise or affection was given to anyone else, be they friends or employees, Diana saw as taken from her.
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  #2645  
Old 08-19-2017, 08:52 PM
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But Charles was a needy and insecure individual as well, due to his cold childhood.

The trouble was that Charles and Diana needed things from each other that each was incapable of providing. Plus, marrying someone whom you discover really isn't in love with you but is bound heart and soul to another, would be more than a bit shattering to anyone.
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  #2646  
Old 08-19-2017, 11:13 PM
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If you start married life being in love with someone other then your wife you don't get any sympathy from me.
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  #2647  
Old 08-20-2017, 02:42 AM
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I have been reading this discussion for quite a while now and I do understand lots of it, yet one thing is very clear here and this is NOT me taking anyone side in this sham of a marriage, Charles at that time in his life and I am only talking about Charles here for the time being, he was a totally insecure, weak man with no self-esteem or self-confidence to be a real man and stand up to his family. The royal family had done things one way for generations after generations and did not want to change so he followed their *orders* to marry a virgin ......LOL and he did.

Diana here now and this is about her only and not anyone else, was a weak troubled young lady from a perfect family that the royal family thought would make the perfect babies (well she did her part that is for sure) yet no one could even think about the *feelings* that she had going through her. Diana from all aspects of me reading books and magazines for years was also insecure and really when she married Charles she did not know a darn thing about being a royal princess and most of all there was not one person that I know of that could or did help her, (please correct me if I am wrong here) so she was left to flounder in the family and the more time went by the more insecure and weak and troubled she became.

One saying I firmly believe in and is that >>*when we are dumb, foolish and young all the decisions and mistakes we make then will and do come back to haunt us when we are older and wise*..........that happened to me so an arranged marriage here I firmly believe is the down fall of this marriage and I place blame on the royal family at that time for they were still living in a different world then what was out there.

This comment is not to start a war here or to slam anyone.........it is just my honest opinion of these 2 lost souls that never really loved each other yet the one thing they did right was give us William and Harry and in that fact all should be forgiven and move forward.

For the past is just that...*the past* and it can not be changed regardless of who wants it to or how many books are written by someone looking to make money off 2 people that they barely know.
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  #2648  
Old 08-20-2017, 02:52 AM
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I've had to remove and edit a bunch of posts because of back and forth bickering and talk about Camilla. This thread is about Charles and Diana, so let's stay on topic. If you wish to have an off-topic discussion, take it to PM (or the appropriate thread).
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  #2649  
Old 08-20-2017, 03:23 AM
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[QUOTE=M. Payton;2011198]

Diana here now and this is about her only and not anyone else, was a weak troubled young lady from a perfect family that the royal family thought would make the perfect babies (well she did her part that is for sure) yet no one could even think about the *feelings* that she had going through her. Diana from all aspects of me reading books and magazines for years was also insecure and really when she married Charles she did not know a darn thing about being a royal princess and most of all there was not one person that I know of that could or did help her, (please correct me if I am wrong here) so she was left to flounder in the family and the more time went by the more insecure and weak and troubled she became.[/quote

She was offered help by both members of the Royal Family e.g. The Queen Mum and courtiers. She refused it all and said she 'knew how to do it'. She was also given books to read on protocol etc and refused to read them.

She was not left to flounder at all. She chose to go her own way.
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  #2650  
Old 08-20-2017, 03:51 AM
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Thank you for the info about Diana yet there is one thing, there is more to being a princess besides in reading a book on protocol and which fork to use. What I am trying to say is that IMHO do not think she was properly prepared to handle the job or be the wife of the crown prince, Charles.

I also believe that pressure was put on Charles to find that perfect bride and he had his family to help him do that. Pressure to have that bride and then those heirs to keep the family cycle going. Neither Charles nor Diana gave it much thought as to the future or how to live together, or be in love.....it was just simply an arranged marriage that failed on *Both* sides, there is not one person to blame here but the royal family at that time, the ones that actually pressured Charles and found Diana, nobody actually sat down and thought what the future would bring for they were still living in what I call the dark ages of royalty, you have to really look at the way the royal family was during that time, they were a closed unit in just about every aspect of their lives .......today is way different then when they married thank goodness for the end results today show an openness and more compassionate family who are really out there for the people. No longer is there a moot or drawbridge to keep people at bay.

Anyhow I have said enough and I am not trying to change anyone's mind or opinion on Diana or Charles for in the end, we really do not know what went on behind that drawbridge now do we?
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  #2651  
Old 08-20-2017, 03:54 AM
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From the engagement on she was tutored by HM The Queen Mother.

Who do you think should have been giving her advice?

The books I referred to are one example of the fact she was given help but she chose not to take it. She 'knew' how it should be done.

She was given lots of advice and offered guidance but simply put she refused it all.
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  #2652  
Old 08-20-2017, 04:27 AM
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What biographies show that Diana was tutored on behaviour and protocol by the Queen Mother? I've read all the major and latest biographies on Charles, on Diana, on them both and also the authorised biography of the Queen Mother. In none of them does it say that Diana was given instruction by the Queen Mother. Diana was at BP for much of her engagement, and only went to stay with the QM briefly. Nor did she apparently see that much of the Queen Mother in the early months of her marriage.

She was instructed in curtseying etc by Lady Susan Hussey, lady in waiting to the Queen, and was given books on other Princesses of Wales and Queens. Sir William Haseltine wrote in his memoirs of coming across Diana at the time of her engagement and she was reading a book she'd been given on Queen Adelaide. I doubt though that the Queen Mother had given her it. It was probably a courtier who'd been 'helpful'. Anyway, he saw her reading it in the gardens of BP.
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  #2653  
Old 08-20-2017, 04:32 AM
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The about the Queen Mum were in the press at the time. I had, until a recent move saw many of my 'royal memorabilia boxes' go missing when I moved house (3 out of 7) many newspapers and magazines etc about what Diana was doing during her engagement and many of them commented on her being advised on royal life by the Queen Mum, over afternoon teas and dinners - along with times with her own grandmother Lady Femoy who was very close to the Queen Mum.

Don't forget this is a girl who when asked 'what it felt like to have afternoon tea with The Queen' replied 'nothing unusual, I have been doing it all my life' during the engagement interview. She already knew how to curtsey - and if she didn't she was let down badly by her parents, nannies and her finishing school when any well-bred lady is taught how to do that.
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  #2654  
Old 08-20-2017, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
If you start married life being in love with someone other then your wife you don't get any sympathy from me.
See, imo he was ready to leave the old love behind him and start a new life (the old love was married to someone else so was off limits anyway). Imo only when the new love didnt work out (too little shared interests) he returned to the old love with whom he did share interests (which he shouldn't have done ofcourse, but nobody is perfect).

all imo ofcourse, but i do think it's possible to move on from a former loved one and start a new life with a new love.

That said, i also think C&D were too incompatible and both not able or willing to bridge the gap and at some point found it easier to go their own way, him with an old love, her with new love(rs).
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  #2655  
Old 08-20-2017, 04:56 AM
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Diana lasted one term at her Swiss finishing school before her parents relented and allowed her to come home.

I said 'curtseying etc' in my post about Lady Susan Hussey. The etc would have included various court protocols. I'm afraid a lot of what newspapers and magazines printed about Diana and her engagement activities and early marriage at the time turned out often to be a lot of baloney.

In no book (biography) that I've ever read did Diana have a lot to do with the Queen Mother. Some of the reported comments Diana was supposed to have made about being so so used to the Queen's company before her marriage weren't true, either.
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  #2656  
Old 08-20-2017, 07:00 PM
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Whichever way you look at it Diana was not some middle-class girl with a job (not career) which paid for things to put in her glory box so when she married she had the requisite linen, crockery and silverware.

I believe Diana's comment about taking tea with the QM, they lived virtually next door and the family's youngsters must have mixed or at least known each other. One only has to look at the home in which she grew up to know those she mixed with were aristocracy and she knew about living in a living museum. Think about how passionately she said she hated her stepmother for persuading her father to sell works of art to fund restoration. Her stepmother was not only hated but IMHO despised for being "Common" or just upper-middle-class with the pink caricature of romance, Barbara Cartland, for a mother!

Diana knew which knife and fork to use and she definitely knew how to curtsey. I think the only thing she missed by leaving Finishing School early was learning how to run a household which she wouldn't have needed to know or do anyway.
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  #2657  
Old 08-20-2017, 07:08 PM
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IT Is true that Diana knew the basics of etiquette, with the RF, already. But it isn't true, AFAIK that she had any instrucitotn from the Q Mother. that was just tabloid gossip. But she problaby wasn't nervous per se with the RF or the queen because she had after all been brought up in a family that lived near the RF and mixed iwht them socially.
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  #2658  
Old 08-20-2017, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
See, imo he was ready to leave the old love behind him and start a new life (the old love was married to someone else so was off limits anyway). Imo only when the new love didnt work out (too little shared interests) he returned to the old love with whom he did share interests (which he shouldn't have done ofcourse, but nobody is perfect).

all imo ofcourse, but i do think it's possible to move on from a former loved one and start a new life with a new love.

That said, i also think C&D were too incompatible and both not able or willing to bridge the gap and at some point found it easier to go their own way, him with an old love, her with new love(rs).
I agree. I think that he did love Camilla adn perhaps he had only realised it in the last year or so, how close he was to her and how the 2 of thtem were comfortable together and had a lot In common and that he wished he could be with her rather than another woman. But he couldn't marry her, she was married and he would have to make a suitable marriage. But he did IMO have feelings for Diana, he was attracted to her, she seemed sweet and warm and seemed to be someone who shared his interests and was willing to take on the job of royal bride.. I think he was nervous that Diana was so young but knew that it was likely that any suitable bride would be a good bit younger than him.
I think he was fond of Diana, and given a good start to marriage, would have probably grown into love with her.. as many arranged marriages start.. where people have started wit some common interests, liking and a willingness to make the best of it. And love grows. But Charles found that Diana was nervy and upset, didn't seem to enjoy the same things any more.. was ill. It wasn't a good start. And she found him boring at close quarters and found the royal family more intimidating than when she was just a guest. And I think she didn't realise that life within the RF is pretty formal.. and that she had to conform to it, rather than just have a cosy private life with her husband. She reacted badly, built up resentment and was jealous of Charles' feelngs for Camilla and became jealous of his other interests and friends..
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  #2659  
Old 08-20-2017, 07:28 PM
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An article in the DM a couple of days quotes Diana's roommate saying Diana was going, “Oh my God I met this guy at the weekend but I have to call him Your Highness.”

That alone tells you she wasn't exactly an expert. Charles is Royal Highness, not Highness.

I do think she was a bit intimidated by the whole thing. This was 1980, not 1880. It's not liked she spent her days locked in her room practicing her curtsey and reading Latin or whatever.

She had a bit of social exposure but certainly no experience at court.
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  #2660  
Old 08-20-2017, 07:34 PM
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Oh for goodness' sake that is very pedantic. Clearly what Diana meant was "I've met someone in the RF so I have to be formal with him."
And I find it hard to believe, anyway. Why wuodl she refer to Charles as "this guy I met"? its an Americanism and anyway, I should think that she would sasy that she had met Charles or the POW.. at a party and had to be formal with him..
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