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  #241  
Old 07-29-2008, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Monika_ View Post
In the beginning, she must have felt a bit awkward about the attention she was getting and uncomfortable about the affect it was having on her husband, Ďa proud man,í as she called him when she discussed this issue. I think the problem was that Charles never took a page out of Sarkozyís book; he should have taken great pride in his wifeís popularity.
From Dimbleby (published when Diana was still alive), p. 332, hardcover edition: "The princess relied heavily on her husband's reassuring presence, describing in a letter to one of her friends how he had pulled her out of her shell and taught her how to cope with the pressure, how he had rescued her when she had felt bewildered and swamped, and how she felt reassured by his presence beside her, especially when they were driving through the crowds in an open car when she could discreetly cling on to him for comfort."

Hardly the behaviour of a man who "never took a page out of Sarkozy's book". And it has to be noted that Dimbleby never says that the princess tried to upstage her husband, he only says that the media attention had that effect and that Charles was not happy about it, because: "Although he had never hungered for the spotlight, it was disconcerting to have it beamed away from him and onto his wife, who was there - both in his own mind and according to protocol - as his consort. Later he would admit to harbouring resentment, yet also to being torn between pride in her performance and dismay - on her behalf - at the excess of idolatry."

There we have quotes from both Charles and Diana which IMHO explains the mechanism of how this public adoration for Diana got out of hand.

And I think it is well documented that Diana knew how to use the media to her advantage when she wanted to, but it's worth mentioning that it's not an accusation to be found in a book that has been approved by Charles.
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  #242  
Old 07-29-2008, 05:15 AM
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I That didnít make her duplicitous, it means she was human.
The comment about her being duplicitous was based in the fact that she behaved as if she loved the country life when in fact she was not interested. It is a known fact that Charles and Diana didn't share any interests (to quote Dimbleby, p.335: "While she was pregnant with Prince Harry and for six months after his birth, the Princess made no further official visits abroard, preferring to stay at home with her very small children. For much of the time they lived within the shell of a normal marriage, though they still lacked the intimacy and mutual understanding without which the relationship could not grow. As they shared no common interests there was little to talk about except the mundane arrangements that are necessary when two people share the same roof."

Now that sounds really different from p. 280. He (Charles, pre-engagement) spoke of Diana Spencer's easy and open manner, of her warmth, of her enthusiasm for rural life, and of her background through which she knew a little of his family and certainly enough, he presumed, to have few fears of marrying into it. The impression was widely shared...

But these were exactly the points where Diana started complaining early on as freinds recall (and in the Morton-book, Panorama-interview): she hated rural life and the way the RF lived in the countryside, she felt over-whelmed by her Royal role and she behaved definately not "warmly" towards her husband during her mood swings.

As I cannot believe that Charles would have married her, had he realised that she hated the lifestyle of his family so much, I can only come to the conclusion that she wanted so much to become the Princess of Wales that she behaved in a way Charles, his family and friends would think she was the right one for him.

Dimbleby p.282:
Penny Romsey, the wife of Mountbatten's grandson Norton, swiftly realised that the Prince had very little in common with Diana Spencer, except apparently a shared enthusiasm for the outdoors. Sensing the absence if intensity in his feelings for Diana, she was alos allarmed by her attitude towards him. To Penny Ramsey it seemed that the nineteen-year-old had fallen in love with an idea rather than an individual. In one conversation with her, Diana Spencer had used the phrase:"If I'm lucky enough to be the Princess of Wales", rather as if she were auditioning for a central role in a costume drama, not lacking the sincerity but quite unaware of the enormity of the real undertaking that she seemed to contemplate so light-heartedly."

Dimbleby continues that the Romseys tried to talk to Charles about it, but he only reacted indignated and did not listen to them.
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  #243  
Old 07-29-2008, 08:02 AM
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I think it's completely normal when a couple is courting, that each of them try to like the things the other does even if it's not something you would choose to do. For example when my DH and I were dating, I tried to like football (something I loathe). After we were married for awhile, I gave up and went back to loathe. Thus he goes to the game and I dont. So it does not surprise me that she tried to like hunting for a time. I'm curious as to what things Diana liked that Charles tried to enjoy (which didn't come naturally), as he strikes me as completely inflexible.
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  #244  
Old 07-29-2008, 08:34 AM
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What was it that Diana like apart from ballet which he enjoyed as long as it was not his wife on the stage? He enjoyed the contact to his kids but she resented this as she saw it as her domain. I mean I can tell you right here at least 10 things that Charels enjoys but apart from shopping and workouts I don't think I know something of Diana, though I've read quite some books about her as well. When it came to charity, it seems that she wanted to have charities of her own and didn't want to be just the "Consort" of the Prince of the "Prince's Trust".

But you're right: a sad thing is that both were interested in esoterics, but IMHO due to the fact that this field is so very widespread and that their intellectual level was so different, they didn't find a common base in that.
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  #245  
Old 07-29-2008, 02:53 PM
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I must disagree. I dont believe that it was his 'duty' he was putting first *cough*. Nor was it his 'duty' causing the tantrums, IMO. Aside from the Obvious Reason,
Lemsip works quite well for coughs.

As far as I recall, Diana stated that she asked Charles to cancel a pre arranged public engagement and when he took no notice of her, she threw herself down a flight of stairs. We do know that was not exactly the truth but Hey Ho...

IMO, Diana believed that Charles should 'drop everything', official duties, public speaking, his charities, everything, to spend time with her, looking after her every need. The knight in shining armour whoese sole concern in life would be her, she failed to realise that his life was arranged 6 months in advance and he couldn't act like her, on a whim.
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  #246  
Old 07-29-2008, 03:06 PM
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I think it's completely normal when a couple is courting, that each of them try to like the things the other does even if it's not something you would choose to do. For example when my DH and I were dating, I tried to like football (something I loathe). After we were married for awhile, I gave up and went back to loathe. Thus he goes to the game and I dont. So it does not surprise me that she tried to like hunting for a time. I'm curious as to what things Diana liked that Charles tried to enjoy (which didn't come naturally), as he strikes me as completely inflexible.
Trying to like or show an interest is one thing but to enthuse that this was the life for you is another. It will never cease to amaze me that Charles missed all the signs. Diana moved away from the country at the first available opportunity. She didn't like dogs or country walking, was terrified of horses and riding and you can't hunt unless you can ride, had no interest in shooting or the quiet life country living offered. Diana liked the high life, parties, shopping, gossiping.

I think Charles tried to enjoy the same type of music, films, etc, but we are talking chalk and cheese. However I don't think Charles misled Diana about his lifestyle, the same cannot be said of Diana.
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  #247  
Old 07-29-2008, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
The comment about her being duplicitous was based in the fact that she behaved as if she loved the country life when in fact she was not interested. It is a known fact that Charles and Diana didn't share any interests (to quote Dimbleby, p.335: "While she was pregnant with Prince Harry and for six months after his birth, the Princess made no further official visits abroard, preferring to stay at home with her very small children. For much of the time they lived within the shell of a normal marriage, though they still lacked the intimacy and mutual understanding without which the relationship could not grow. As they shared no common interests there was little to talk about except the mundane arrangements that are necessary when two people share the same roof."
Since we all know that Panorama and Morton's book are not 'reliable' sources and shouldn't be quoted to validate anything, AND since Mr Dimbleby wrote the Wales marriage bible (yeah right), then I wonder if Mr D discusses Prince Charles' initial reaction to Harry's birth. Hmmm...
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  #248  
Old 07-29-2008, 09:04 PM
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If you disagree with the statement that Diana and Charles didn't have anything in common, feel free to explain why. As far as I know, there hasn't really been much argument with that other than to say that it wasn't true that Diana disliked classical music.
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  #249  
Old 07-29-2008, 09:54 PM
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Elspeth...

I don't disagree with what Charles and Diana did or did not have in common but I think it's overkill to suggest that Diana acted her way through their courtship and engagement. I agree with scooter's comment: "I think it's completely normal when a couple is courting, that each of them try to like the things the other does even if it's not something you would choose to do." That was my only point.
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  #250  
Old 07-29-2008, 10:03 PM
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Charles missed all the signs, because Charles was far more interested in Charles than anything else. Yes, foolishly, people think they will change their parters some of the time. But when your main focus is yourself and that is the way you were raised, your mistress dotes after you like a mother, you expect that from others, too. Diana, thought she would become the main event, foolishly. She missed the signs, too. She did know his job and to that end, she was wrong if she thought she would come first. His mother put her job first and so did he. There was never a chance for the two of them.
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  #251  
Old 07-29-2008, 10:06 PM
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IMO, Diana believed that Charles should 'drop everything'
I dont believe that it was 'everything' she wanted him to drop, more like a certain someone and all of the activities which were a cover for their assignations (hunting for example), which to be quite frank, I dont think was unreasonable of her. If I was sure or at the least suspicious that my husband was having an extramarital sexual relationship, you can be quite sure I would be all over him about meeting her even in 'innocent' activities...temptation, you know. It's like giving up cigarettes. As long as you save one for special occasions, regarding it as a treat, you'll never give it up.
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  #252  
Old 07-29-2008, 10:34 PM
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Trying to like or show an interest is one thing but to enthuse that this was the life for you is another. It will never cease to amaze me that Charles missed all the signs. Diana moved away from the country at the first available opportunity. She didn't like dogs or country walking, was terrified of horses and riding and you can't hunt unless you can ride, had no interest in shooting or the quiet life country living offered. Diana liked the high life, parties, shopping, gossiping.

I think Charles tried to enjoy the same type of music, films, etc, but we are talking chalk and cheese. However I don't think Charles misled Diana about his lifestyle, the same cannot be said of Diana.
I dont think Charles cared enough one way or another to spend the time to find out what the selected bride liked or didnt like. It simply never occured to him that The Bride wouldn't just meekly go along with what he wanted. This was one of the few suitable, acceptable girls who met the gold standard of what was required in terms of family, background, religion and virginity. Extremely young and naive was a huge bonus. She had been hand picked by Camilla who was widely quoted as 'She's perfect. She's an absolute mouse'. I distinctly remember the Vanity Fair Cover 'The Mouse Who Roared'. One wonders, if in fact the Camilla Charles relationship was as platonic at that point as you allege, why Camilla would want Charles wife to be 'a mouse'? Perhaps to keep the field unobstructed by any serious challenge to Camilla's ascendancy?
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  #253  
Old 07-29-2008, 10:54 PM
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One wonders, if in fact the Camilla Charles relationship was as platonic at that point as you allege, why Camilla would want Charles wife to be 'a mouse'? Perhaps to keep the field unobstructed by any serious challenge to Camilla's ascendancy?
Or perhaps because that is the kind of wife that she knew he wanted. Someone to look and act the part of quiet, supportive princess. Everyone just underestimated how loud Diana actually could be.
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  #254  
Old 07-29-2008, 11:06 PM
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Or perhaps because that is the kind of wife that she knew he wanted. Someone to look and act the part of quiet, supportive princess. Everyone just underestimated how loud Diana actually could be.
How many women would remain quiet in her situation? If Diana was really the actress that some people suggest she was, then she would have gone along with everything for the sake of the baubles. But she wasn't willing to do so. She had backbone and was not willing to live in a facade of a marriage. IMO, it's too easy to make her out to be a complainer and manipulator as it deters from the reality of what she was dealing with.
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  #255  
Old 07-29-2008, 11:18 PM
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I don't know, Monika. Everything I've read indicates that whenever she didn't get her way or wasn't receiving enough attention that she would have a tantrum (throwing self down stairs, for example) and even growing up she would send hate mail to her stepmother, behaved evily towards her nannies (even flushing one's engagement ring down the toilet) and was obsessed with Prince Charles. While I think it is nice to get caught up in the romance of it all (it was the wedding of the century, after all!), I really think that that was the personality she brought with her to the Royal Family. She was simply too young--she had entirely too much growing up to do before being thrust into the spotlight with so many responsibilities. She never "found herself" so to speak. Heck, I was 31 before I knew what I wanted to do with my life! And, I do think that a lot her behaviors were because of her youth and her situation--but I just don't think we can discount the history of manipulation and complaining that she brought into the marriage as well. These traits may have been exacerbated by the situation of what she was dealing with, but there are numerous accounts which state she brought that behavior in with her. I

BTW I love you quote from Dr. Khan--of course, saying I love it makes me a bit hyprocritcal!
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  #256  
Old 07-30-2008, 12:02 AM
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How many women would remain quiet in her situation?

Unfortunately, the answer to that question with regard to women (and men) born into the same station that she was is a lot of them. Members of the nobility for centuries have married not always for love, but sometimes for name, protection of assets and a usual guarantee of companionship with a person who shared a similar mindset. One of the reasons why it was so important that Charles find a "suitable" bride was the assumption that, if he chose one from the nobility, she would have been raised to understand that sometimes you marry the right person for the job, for lack of a better explanation.

Throughout history, royals and nobles have chosen their spouses, not usually for love, but their suitability for the position. It is more than possible that Charles picked Diana for the qualities that he saw in her that would benefit her role as his wife. It is also possible that he assumed, as a member of the nobility, she would have been raised with the mindset that romance with all its hearts and flowers was something that you shared with an extracurricular partner who was not necessarily suitable to marry. With regard to both Diana and Sarah, Duchess of York, it has been established that they carried on affairs right under the Queen's nose and nothing was said to them as long as they remained discreet about it. Do I agree personally with this line of thinking? Absolutely not. It is not how I was raised. If my husband was cheating on me, I would take him to the cleaners and walk away with everything that I could, right up to cutting his boxer shorts in half to make sure that I got everything I was entitled to. Members of the nobility may think otherwise. Marriage for them might mean a lifetime married to someone who is an excellent co-parent and comes from a similar privileged background, eventually making a comfortable companion in later life. This is perhaps what Charles was looking for in a wife and was under the impression that Diana felt the same way. I'm not saying that she was morally wrong to be angry if he was carrying on an affair, just perhaps that it was thought that she would behave like many other women of her station and look the other way while having affairs of her own.
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  #257  
Old 07-30-2008, 12:32 AM
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I dont believe that it was 'everything' she wanted him to drop, more like a certain someone and all of the activities which were a cover for their assignations (hunting for example), which to be quite frank, I dont think was unreasonable of her. If I was sure or at the least suspicious that my husband was having an extramarital sexual relationship, you can be quite sure I would be all over him about meeting her even in 'innocent' activities...temptation, you know. It's like giving up cigarettes. As long as you save one for special occasions, regarding it as a treat, you'll never give it up.
I dunno - a lot of people have said she was extremely clingy and demanding when she got close to someone (the nuisance phone calls to Oliver Hoare are possibly an extreme example). I'm sure her feelings of insecurity caused by her jealousy of Camilla and her belief - whether right or wrong - that Charles was still seeing her would have exacerbated this tendency, but I think the tendency was always there regardless.
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  #258  
Old 07-30-2008, 04:50 AM
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I dont believe that it was 'everything' she wanted him to drop, more like a certain someone and all of the activities which were a cover for their assignations (hunting for example), which to be quite frank, I dont think was unreasonable of her.
I have to giggle every time someone suggests that hunting was a cover for Charles and Camilla to pursue anything other than a fox. The thought of them leaping off their horses, finding a suitably sheltered soft spot, tying up said excited horses, whilst 80-100 other riders and hounds thundered past, is .... silly to say the least! Neither have you addressed Diana's own admission that to stop Charles going to a formal event, she alleged she threw herself down the stairs. And of course, the sad tale of insisting Charles rehomed his beloved dog.
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She had been hand picked by Camilla who was widely quoted as 'She's perfect. She's an absolute mouse'. I distinctly remember the Vanity Fair Cover 'The Mouse Who Roared'. One wonders, if in fact the Camilla Charles relationship was as platonic at that point as you allege, why Camilla would want Charles wife to be 'a mouse'? Perhaps to keep the field unobstructed by any serious challenge to Camilla's ascendancy?
I have to wonder where the allegation that Diana was 'handpicked' by Camilla comes from, as I understand it, Diana was handpicked by the QM and Fermoy, again with the 'mouse' label, or is this another case of being printed more than once makes it the truth?
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I agree with scooter's comment: "I think it's completely normal when a couple is courting, that each of them try to like the things the other does even if it's not something you would choose to do.
I find it dishonest to give every indication that you absolutely love the interests your partner has in order to get the ring on your finger, which is totally different from 'trying to like' the things the other does.
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  #259  
Old 07-30-2008, 04:56 AM
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I dunno - a lot of people have said she was extremely clingy and demanding when she got close to someone (the nuisance phone calls to Oliver Hoare are possibly an extreme example). I'm sure her feelings of insecurity caused by her jealousy of Camilla and her belief - whether right or wrong - that Charles was still seeing her would have exacerbated this tendency, but I think the tendency was always there regardless.
There were also the allegations from Nigel Havers that Diana constantly phoned to pursue him, (whilst his wife was seriously ill). It didn't stop either, constantly ringing Khan, peering through the windows of the OT whilst he was working, turning up at the hospital, etc.
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Old 07-30-2008, 04:57 AM
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It is more than possible that Charles picked Diana for the qualities that he saw in her that would benefit her role as his wife.
We know from Dimbleby why Charles married her - I quoted these parts before. of course you can claim that Charles did not mean the things he wrote into his diary and in letters to friends, that he had in truth much more sinister reasons, but where are the sources for this?

Charles approved a book in which the author stated that Charles was very much intrigued by Diana, that he had an intensity of feelings and that he thought he could come to really love her. He didn't want to listen to warnings by friends who tried to tell him that Diana was more in love with his position than with him. He explained to Diana pre-wedding that Camilla Parker Bowles had been one of his most intimate friends but that "now that he was engaged to be married there was, and there would be, no other woman in his life."

Diana didn't believe him, obviously. Charles' then secretary Michael Colbrone recalled that "it became clear that his employer's fianceť was exceptionally interetsed in the Prince's previous relationships and, in particular, his friendship with Mrs. Parker Bowles."

So for me it is clear that Diana entered her marriage with a clear distrust of the man she was going to marry even though she claimed she loved him. For me, this is not love. IMHO she wanted to become the Princess of Wales and to own the Prince. Sorry, but for me this is the worst nightmare for any man. Because he had been tried and judged for things that happened before Diana was a part of his life. And it's absolutely clear that with tantrums and open distrust you don't get to build a stable, loving and caring relationship.

But you're right: if Charles had been more interested in Diana and Diana's problems, he would never have married her because he would have recognized the potential for utmost damage she brought with her. But he saw Diana as possessing an "easy and open manner, warmth and enthusiasm for rural life", he thought she was "lovable and warm-hearted". To quote Dimbleby: "In the autumn of 1980, the Prince invited Diana Spencer to join a house party at Balmoral. Again she reinforced the initial impression that she had made on his friends. She was so obviously happy and he seemed so attracted to her that his friends warmed to a prospective love match."

But how can she appear in autumn of 1980 at a houseparty to be open and warm when a short time later she started to be mistrusting, started to cry, became eating disorders. Dimbleby: "Having known only the "jolly" girl who had enlivened Balmoral six months earlier, he had been baffled to discover her sudden shifts in mood - her "other side" as he referred to it ( in an interview with Dimbleby.)

That was not Charles' doing, that was a psychological issue she brought with her to the marriage. Sure, the difficult situation in which she found herself had been a trigger, but other girls have managed the transformation from commoner to princess much better and without the help of a background of the nobility and a sister who had been married to a senior courtier. It all went to fast with them and when they realised it, it was too late.

But to blame Charles and him alone is making the things too easy. Diana wasn't the first Royal to suffer from depressions and she could have gotten professional help to find a way to fit in with her situation. But, as someone said: she had "backbone" and was not willing to lie in the bed she had made herself and to work to make this bed more comfortable and acceptable for herself.

And something else: could you please equally willing to name sources for statements like "Camilla handpicked Diana" and to offer sources for quotes which, if they are reliable, really can point to certain character traits but if they are only invented, help nothing on assessing what might have happened in reality. Because this discussion is not about fantasies of beautiful princesses and ugly princes, but about real people who have been part of history.
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