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  #2521  
Old 07-02-2017, 03:51 PM
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The body language started telling in the mid-1980s IIRC. That trip to Wales in 1987 to visit flood victims was very chilly indeed.
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  #2522  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:00 PM
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I've had a relationship with someone like Diana (high strung drama queen) and basically I can't blame Charles for withdrawing from her. Thing is, that Diana was SO determined to be a miserable person some times that she clearly didn't WANT to be happy when she had the chance. When she talked about her sons being her 'men in her life' that was a huge red flag that she clearly wasn't at all healthy. I don't believe that she should be idealized or put on a pedestal by the public or any young person since she was someone who at some point didn't WANT to work to make her life better. It's also not right that she was excused when she was stalking that married man and screaming threats at the wives. Many keep making excuses for a lot of what she did and I did get disgusted with how she had the gall to openly BLAME Charles for the fact that royal life was a way of life where she had to make an effort and actually do things she didn't like or didn't want to and couldn't just shrug it all off.
Well said. It's possible many of us have known a person(s) like Diana and that makes us sympathetic to Charles' dilemma. It's also probable that many have been in relationships where they were bitterly betrayed and that makes them sympathetic to Diana. I have often suspected the latter as the basic reason for the Diana adoration, given all the rationales given regarding the 'ol meanie Charles. Some projection there (maybe).

I particularly resonate to what you said about Diana's stalking and treatment of the wives of men she fancied. She was shameless. Totally working from a sense of entitlement imo. I think she let her whole royal position go to her head, and that started early in the game. She thought she was untouchable and the adoration of the crowd fed all that. (Have I ever seen that at work in people I have known!). Fame and public adulation really can warp a person's sense of reality, especially regarding themselves. It's a disastrous place to be inwardly.

But most curious is to see the disconnect between the public and private personas. It's almost as though the greater the adulation the greater the stress on the person's sense of self, and inevitably (it seems, though certainly not always) there emerges demons in the private life that I don't think would have been there quite so obviously otherwise. Just some thoughts.

Not sure what to make of Diana: haven't decided if she was someone warped by the status and adulation, or did she walk into the situation already tipsy? Can't decide. Might be a combination of both, of course.
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  #2523  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:14 PM
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I think that is the reason why I liked the Bedell Smith biography of Diana the most. It looked at Diana's life through a psychological viewpoint. How her psychological makeup played a big part in the person we all came to know as Shy Di then The Princess of Wales and then Diana, Princess of Wales.

It kind of explained the why she would do the things she did without denigrating her or putting her on a pedestal or giving her labels such as "egotistical" "victim" "lunatic" or any other appellation we can think of. Its a portrait of a troubled princess as the title denotes but if truth be told, there are aspects of all of us that can be deemed as troublesome.

I think it was the best insight I've had into Diana and will be one I reread often.
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  #2524  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
The body language started telling in the mid-1980s IIRC. That trip to Wales in 1987 to visit flood victims was very chilly indeed.
Ah...I don't even remember that...I went a few years not really paying a lot of attention to the BRF due to 'real life'.

Any specific pics?

LaRae
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  #2525  
Old 07-02-2017, 05:22 PM
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I know where you're coming from. A lot of people, when faced with a relationship with high drama coming from the other person, finds it best not to feed into it and walk away which actually does no better as would feeding into a screaming match would be. Charles, I believe, is a man that doesn't handle confrontation well so he was really caught between a rock and a hard place when dealing with Diana's temperament.

What I find that is a blessing is these forums where all aspects of these people come into play. The good, the bad, the ugly and the warts and warps of them are looked at. There's no black and white or saints or sinners but real human beings with very human foibles and very human achievements. Its nice to be able to look at and piece together what could be termed as the whole picture. Of course, we'll never entirely finish this jigsaw puzzle.
^I"m glad to share my experiences.

I believe that with someone like Diana, it was unfathomable that at some point in her life, people would go off and have lives of their own that wouldn't make her the center of all of it. She would in fact have spent much fo the rest of her life looking to be eternally glorious and eternally put-upon at the same time. She said that she was bulimic and a cutter and someone who threw tantrums and pulled stuff against people that should have landed her in a mental facility, not St. Paul's cathedral as a bride. Bulimia, self-cutting, alleged suicide attempts, the phone stalking, and then that worldwide temper tantrum via Panorama are all signs of someone with SERIOUS conditions. Just being bulimic can get a person committed and in my honest view, she should have been required to prove mental stability before being able to take her sons on trips. Any normal parent would have been denied unsupervised visitation. She never took any responsibility for her life and never blamed herself for one single mistake she made in her life.

The only reason she had problems in life were when she realized that she wasn't some special snowflake entitled to having Charles BE the solution to her problems and be the best of everything and be willing to give it up all the time all for her sake. She then messed with Hasnat and wanted him to quit his day to day life so he could be a world doctor and basically be all over the place where she was. Then Hoare and Carling, she had no excuse for any of that. Third, Dodi was practically engaged to someone else at the time, but she had no problems stealing the guy and got outraged that someone had the gall to call Dodi out on his jilting behavior. She kept getting surprised that she ran into men who weren't going to drop it all, all for her. She ended up in a car wreck since drama became the drug she was addicted to, not booze or drugs, but drama.
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  #2526  
Old 07-02-2017, 05:54 PM
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What you point out is all too true and pretty much would be the way of things now in 2017. In the early 80s to the mid 90s, it still was the era of depending on "mother's little helpers" to get through psychological problems and of course the stigma was very much there that a mental issue was not something one wanted publicly known about. It was easily shoved under the carpet with the hopes that it would all "go away".

There was also quite a bit in Diana's makeup that was genuine. Her compassion, her ability to connect with people and her conviction of wanting to make a difference. She was loaded with natural charisma which drew people to her. Unfortunately at times, it was this ability that got skewered in her mental processes and I think she did become addicted to how the adulation of the masses made her feel.

Perhaps if there had been a campaign such as "Heads Together" in full force before Charles even met Diana, things may have worked out differently. I don't know. Perhaps Diana's mental issues and the rest of the family's "dysfunctional" issues paved the way for Heads Together. We don't know.
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  #2527  
Old 07-02-2017, 09:18 PM
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From Tina Brown's 'The Diana Chronicles', 'The Upstaging Problem'.

I think that the complete change of lifestyle that Diana experienced when scarcely out of her teens is underestimated by her detractors. She entered the Royal family and a completely new set of circumstances at just twenty. Within a year she had given birth to her first child.

From Tina Brown's book.

'In 1967 two US naval researchers, Dr Thomas Holmes, a psychiatrist, and Richard Rahe, a scientist, had devised 'The Social Readjustment Rating Scale.' According to that formula Diana scored a 407 on a Scale at which 150-299 could lead to mental illness.
Stress chart indicators included marriage, pregnancy, career changes, changes in work responsibilities, outstanding personal achievements, change in living conditions, revision of personal habits, changes in work hours and conditions, change in church activities, change in residence, change in social activities, change in recreation, change in family get-togethers, holidays and Christmas.'

In just about all these, bar the church activities, there was a complete and utter turn-around from the way Diana had lived her previous life. And yet, she performed her duties as Princess of Wales brilliantly and went through a stressful tour of Wales in early pregnancy.
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  #2528  
Old 07-02-2017, 09:25 PM
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Now *that* puts a lot of things into perspectives I think. After reading all of that information, I'd have to honestly say that if my marriage at 20 years old and having my first child at 21 had put me through such drastic changes as Diana had to cope with, I don't think I'd have done as well as she did. Just adjusting to marriage and family life was difficult enough for me and I had support from my family and my friends along the way.
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  #2529  
Old 07-02-2017, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Perhaps because whenever anything is posted that involves Diana but puts Charles (in your eyes) in a bad light you immediately come in to challenge it, infer it must be untrue, and want the source/links etc.

I have incidentally, in the thread Charles and the Freemasons posted pointing to speeches he made on various important topics.

I'm a Diana fan, I would guess considerably older than you, who can remember Diana's first appearance on the scene. I remember her fondly and I don't need to have an inquisition on my feelings.
I too remember Diana's first appearance on the scene but that does not absolve me of the need to provide valid sources for anything other than my own personal opinion. That requirement and our moderators is what keeps TRF a good place to visit, free of personal attacks and slanging matches.

Osipi: Never forget that this was the eighties. Women expected to be married with a child by 20. As a member of the British nobility she, like all her friends, was educated for far more than half of what the BRF required of her. She was provided with an average education and "Finished" in Switzerland. However, she did or did not apply itself was her choice just as is ours. She was an accomplished pianist, among other odd things. She, along with her girlfriends, were the ultimate Sloan Rangers, living in style in London, first in her mother's flat and later in one her mother bought her for her birthday.

She attended a cooking school while she was there, worked as a aide part-time at a nursery school, as a nanny, a dance instructor and a hostess at parties. I assume because she knew who was who socially and could facilitate introductions and socialise with ease. A timid ingenue hiding in the corners would have been no use as a dance instructor or hostess.

The expectation of she and her friends was that they would marry into the aristocracy or gentry, settle down and run the family home and provide an heir and a spare (that rings a bell). Weekends at the pied-à-terre to shop and socialise. She knew how to socialise and she knew how to shop and her marriage required both those skills in spades.

I have met young women who cut themselves, as a result I always dismissed Diana's claims of doing the same. She didn't have a mark on her arms, legs or thighs and "cutting" leaves scarring. And throwing herself down the stairs . . . hmm.
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  #2530  
Old 07-02-2017, 10:49 PM
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Diana taught children not adults, dance, for a very short time. She was not 'finished' in Switzerland. She was sent there but was back in a matter of weeks because she became homesick. I have never read anywhere in any biography that she had a job hostessing parties.

Not every young woman of twenty or so was married by any means in the 1980's, whether they were Sloane Rangers or not. We aren't talking about Victorian England. Neither of Diana's sisters were married that young. None of Charles's former girlfriends were married at that age. And in fact Tina Brown remarks that when Diana became pregnant that removed her further away from her former flatmates, none of whom were even engaged at that time.
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  #2531  
Old 07-03-2017, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post
^I"m glad to share my experiences.

I
The only reason she had problems in life were when she realized that she wasn't some special snowflake entitled to having Charles BE the solution to her problems and be the best of everything and be willing to give it up all the time all for her sake. She then messed with Hasnat and wanted him to quit his day to day life so he could be a world doctor and basically be all over the place where she was. Then Hoare and Carling, she had no excuse for any of that. Third, Dodi was practically engaged to someone else at the time, but she had no problems stealing the guy and got outraged that someone had the gall to call Dodi out on his jilting behavior. She kept getting surprised that she ran into men who weren't going to drop it all, all for her. She ended up in a car wreck since drama became the drug she was addicted to, not booze or drugs, but drama.
what a nasty post. I don't recollect that she ever said anyting about Doidi, so I don't know where you get this "bit about calling Dodi out on his jilting behaviour.
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  #2532  
Old 07-03-2017, 01:38 AM
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Diana taught children not adults, dance, for a very short time. She was not 'finished' in Switzerland. She was sent there but was back in a matter of weeks because she became homesick. I have never read anywhere in any biography that she had a job hostessing parties.

of whom were even engaged at that time.
She didn't have such a job. She worked for a shrort time teaching ballet or dance to kids and didn't stick at the job for long. She didn't have any job "hostessing parties" . She had a couple of jobs as nanny or nursery helper and enjoyed them probably because while not a "mouse" she was clearly shy and preferred the company of children to adults. I would nto say she was an accomplished pianist, she could play fairly well but I'm not sure what the point is anyway.
True that she didn't stay long in Swtizerland, and she did learn to cook at the school but I don't think ti was a job she particularly wanted to train for, she enjoyed her jobs with chidren and stayed with them during her shrot life as a single girl.
I do think she cut herself- but I don't think It was as bad as her detractors are making out. She hurt herself but slightly and it was possible to conceal the problem. I dotn think she made suicide attempts, though she may have said she did.
She did have problems and I think that they weren't easily fixable, partly because her positon as Princess meant that she was not going to be able to go away and have time off work to have in depth therapy or "have a breakdown". Given her postion and the stigma attaching to mental health issues, it was understandable that the RF were likely to advise concealing her problems, and hoping they'd go away with minimal help.
However I think the fact that they DID succeed in concealing them, apart from her losing weight, shows that the problems while real and severe in a way were not outrageously so, or that she was a danger to herself and others as her detractors seem to want ot say.
I agree that its nonsense to say that all debs were "educated for marriage, shopping and socialising" and were married at 20. Most of Di's flatmates didn't marry for a few years, nor were her sisters married at 20.
She was, because Charles needed a young girl with no past, so the odds were that a girl past 20 would have such a past ..
And I think Diana wanted to marry young, because she wanted to "fulfil herself" by a splendid marriage and motherhood, and she was not into having a career. But had she not met Charles, she would likely have been a few more years as a single girl before marrying.
And I think its obvious that whle she liked to socialise (and shop) her idea of socialising was relatively quiet stuff. She had quiet dinner parties with her girlfriends, had a few boyfriends, went home or on visits at the weekend. She wasn't shopping til she dropped, or drinking and partying wildly.. She was essentially a quiet girl who hoped to have a home and kids and find her happiness in that.
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  #2533  
Old 07-03-2017, 01:47 AM
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If I remember right, Diana also did a stint cleaning apartments for her sister. Most of the jobs she held were menial jobs that a young person would do. I'd equate it almost like a lot of teenagers get their very first jobs at McDonald's. Nothing Diana worked at ever pointed to a career. Nothing wrong with that at all. She had jobs to keep herself occupied and the jobs were such that she could live the lifestyle of a Sloane Ranger with dinner parties and weekend house parties even. It was the way of things.
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  #2534  
Old 07-03-2017, 02:05 AM
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If I remember right, Diana also did a stint cleaning apartments for her sister. Most of the jobs she held were menial jobs that a young person would do. I'd equate it almost like a lot of teenagers get their very first jobs at McDonald's. Nothing Diana worked at ever pointed to a career. Nothing wrong with that at all. She had jobs to keep herself occupied and the jobs were such that she could live the lifestyle of a Sloane Ranger with dinner parties and weekend house parties even. It was the way of things.
yes she did some cleaning jobs, I think she enjoyed housework anyway..
but her major interest was working with children.
And her "Sloane Ranger" life was a quiet one. She didn't have a lot of boyfriends, she didn't drink or do drugs, she didn't even party a lot. I think she was happy with that life, cooking and cleaning for her flatmates, watching Tv and chatting and goig out on a few dates..
I think she did enjoy socialising more, after her marriage, when she had had her kids and was finding Charles' friends very dull, she began to go to parties more. But as a girl, she was not really into that except in a mild way.
But I don't know what the implication is that she "had all these social skills". I don't think she did. She was shy with people, found it hard to make conversation, at first. She grew more confident and found talkign to "ordinary people" was something she had a knack for..
But she wasn't really geared toward "being a Society hostess".. like Raine was...
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Old 07-03-2017, 02:14 AM
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what a nasty post. I don't recollect that she ever said anyting about Doidi, so I don't know where you get this "bit about calling Dodi out on his jilting behaviour.
It's not nasty. It's saying it bare bald, without caveats, without the excuses. (That takes bravery in a fan-world that will not have it spoken so). Consider what those on the receiving end of this behavior had to deal with. Have you thought of them? It's a litany of problematic behavior that those around her were never able to control or reflect back to her in a helpful way. She wouldn't listen and so it all got played out in a very public way.

Of course there were wonderful aspects to her, of course she was not 'bad', of course she loved and had a wonderful way with the public, but she was deeply troubled, beauty and grace notwithstanding. It is so. I know it's hard but there it is.

It matters that none of this gets glossed over. I have known too many like Diana. I have two little girls I pray never get caught up in the extremity Diana modeled. One thing we can be grateful for: she never did drugs. Imagine the pain had that been part of it all, too.
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  #2536  
Old 07-03-2017, 03:11 AM
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Experiment on how I see Diana.

#1 First draw a circle. Just a circle.
#2 Draw another circle and put a dot in the middle of it.

Some people are like circle #1. They become adults and part of their circles (groups, society) around them. Some people are like #2. They are the dot in the middle and the circle revolves around them.

Being either way isn't wrong. Its just how people look at their life and people around them. I think Diana would fit into the #2 category. I think also with the way that Charles was raised, he'd also be in the #2 circle as he was used to having his world revolve around himself. With this in mind, it would have been quite a challenge for Charles and Diana to form their own little circle together. Their dots would have to become part of the circle.
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Old 07-03-2017, 03:44 AM
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I'm not srue what you mean Dee Anna, but I think that if it is about Will Harry and their dad, it problaby is not quite "Charles and Diana", and maybe we should take it ot another thread? I Did say that Charles is paying for Will and Harry, is that what you mean?
Some kind mod has merged my posts so thanks for that! I really need to be more observant of what page I'm on!

Yes, the original post was referring to Charles paying for William and Harry's upkeep. I didn't know that. Just assumed both men would have had the means to support themselves by now.

But yes, you are right, it's not on topic for C&D.
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  #2538  
Old 07-03-2017, 04:13 AM
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Diana taught children not adults, dance, for a very short time. She was not 'finished' in Switzerland. She was sent there but was back in a matter of weeks because she became homesick. I have never read anywhere in any biography that she had a job hostessing parties.

Not every young woman of twenty or so was married by any means in the 1980's, whether they were Sloane Rangers or not. We aren't talking about Victorian England. Neither of Diana's sisters were married that young. None of Charles's former girlfriends were married at that age. And in fact Tina Brown remarks that when Diana became pregnant that removed her further away from her former flatmates, none of whom were even engaged at that time.
My thoughts exactly! The last thing any twenty year old wanted back in the eighties was to be married - socialising, relationships yes! But not the serious stuff. Plenty of time for that.

Wasn't Diana only 19 when she got engaged? Not exactly a lot of time to have held down several jobs before embarking on a relationship that led to marriage at just turned twenty.
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Old 07-03-2017, 04:40 AM
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My thoughts exactly! The last thing any twenty year old wanted back in the eighties was to be married - socialising, relationships yes! But not the serious stuff. Plenty of time for that.

Wasn't Diana only 19 when she got engaged? Not exactly a lot of time to have held down several jobs before embarking on a relationship that led to marriage at just turned twenty.
Yes. She turned 20 within the month of getting married. The courtship was short and if Bedell Smith is to be believed, Charles and Diana had 12 dates before getting engaged.

I don't think Diana could have been seen as a progressive, modern young woman that wanted to take on the world with both hands but was a rather lived a rather sheltered life that some young British aristocratic women did. She wasn't prepared to have a career and probably didn't want one nor was she prepared to take on a marriage that involved a very senior role in the BRF's "Firm". Its easy to believe that Diana's attitude towards love and marriage were basically straight out of a Barbara Cartland novel. The reality was quite an eye opener for her.
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Old 07-03-2017, 06:04 AM
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Expect, when from the right breeding pool, class wise and at just 19, holding the attention of the most elegible (not to mention older and Royal!) man in the land, with whom you are smitten, quite heady stuff!

As you say, all the stuff of a Barbara Cartland paperback.
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