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  #2501  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
Because she stirred your soul so deeply, what does that mean? It's a serious question. Does charisma translate to virtue? Is being good-looking synonymous with goodness? What does that charisma mean to you?

The phenomenon of being able to stir hearts and minds deeply is an interesting one. Try being up-close-and-personal with such a person: it's never the projection that is revealed. There are those who can receive our projections but few who can live up to the expectations we develop around them. It's an old story.
No, and several people who have been up close and personal with Charles haven't been overcome by his goodness and virtue either. Diana did do a great deal of good in her lifetime, and I respect that and admire her beauty and grace. No, she wasn't a plaster Saint. She was human, and Charles isn't the repository of all the virtues either. He too is human, AND capable of behaving badly.
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  #2502  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:01 AM
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I know I've read several places where the times that it showed that Charles was displeased with the attention Diana garnered was obvious. I'd have to pull out all the books and find the incidents. I vaguely remember a quote that Charles made at one time that he needed two wives. One for each side of the street.

I don't think his displeasure with Diana's attention was anything that the waiting public would have grasped on in the beginning but I do believe that it was there and Charles was very unused to it. As I said earlier, there were also times when Charles beamed with pride watching Diana draw 'em all in like flies to honey.
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  #2503  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
No, and several people who have been up close and personal with Charles haven't been overcome by his goodness and virtue either. Diana did do a great deal of good in her lifetime, and I respect that and admire her beauty and grace. No, she wasn't a plaster Saint. She was human, and Charles isn't the repository of all the virtues either. He too is human, AND capable of behaving badly.
The polarity you invest in is not mine. Just to be clear: that polarity is of your making. You are making of it a contest. Why?

If you believe Diana did a lot of good in her lifetime (and that she was pretty and made a good impression to boot, as though those aspects are character virtues, and maybe they are, they are certainly handy to possess), why do you not say the same of Charles whose accomplishments are considerable, but who perhaps is not graced with as handsome a visage as George Clooney, or as amiable a PR cloak?
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  #2504  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:22 AM
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Perhaps because whenever anything is posted that involves Diana but puts Charles (in your eyes) in a bad light you immediately come in to challenge it, infer it must be untrue, and want the source/links etc.

I have incidentally, in the thread Charles and the Freemasons, posted pointing to speeches he made on various important topics.

I'm a Diana fan, I would guess considerably older than you, who can remember Diana's first appearance on the scene. I remember her fondly and I don't need to have an inquisition on my feelings.
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  #2505  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Perhaps because whenever anything is posted that involves Diana but puts Charles (in your eyes) in a bad light you immediately come in to challenge it, infer it must be untrue, and want the source/links etc.
That's the way you see it and seeing it that way, you are offended? Whether I am actually doing that is another matter, or what I think I am doing. That's beside the point. The animus against Charles is so extreme that it needs countering imo. That's my view.

But why is it about me and not about the issue being discussed? Why does it have to be about me? This is not the first time that a poster who (dares) 'defend' Charles is subject to objections on a personal level, as though doing such counter-arguments is a 'problem'. You go to a personal place and it's really not necessary imo. The discussion can flow effortlessly on the merits of the case rather than on the perceived merits of the poster. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I have incidentally, in the thread Charles and the Freemasons, posted pointing to speeches he made on various important topics.
Not sure what you are indicating here.

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I'm a Diana fan, I would guess considerably older than you, who can remember Diana's first appearance on the scene. I remember her fondly and I don't need to have an inquisition on my feelings.
Well, I guess we all have our boundaries, not so? Many of my questions are rhetorical, said to the cosmos as an open question, but if you feel that I shouldn't be asking you personally, how about giving me the courtesey of not having my views (which might pop up to counter your views) as an opportunity to go after me as a poster rather than stay on topic? Just a suggestion. It also wastes time and posting space. Irrelevant.

NOTE: You chose to focus on me rather than answer my question on the topic: If you believe Diana did a lot of good in her lifetime (and that she was pretty and made a good impression to boot, as though those aspects are character virtues, and maybe they are, they are certainly handy to possess), why do you not say the same of Charles whose accomplishments are considerable, but who perhaps is not graced with as handsome a visage as George Clooney, or as amiable a PR cloak?
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  #2506  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:57 AM
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This is not an equal opportunity forum. If I praise Diana I don't inevitably have to do the same for Charles. This is a forum in which we can express our views, including on royals we particularly care for.

Answer to Note: I have already pointed to some of Charles's many accomplishments on the Charles and the Freemasons thread when I wrote of his speeches on architecture, agriculture, alternative medicines etc. Surely I don't have to repeat myself here?

You inferred that what I was saying wasn't true when you asked for the source on Charles's petulance, which I gave. I do feel attacked, and I stand by my views.
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  #2507  
Old 07-02-2017, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Answer to Note: I have already pointed to some of Charles's many accomplishments on the Charles and the Freemasons thread when I wrote of his speeches on architecture, agriculture, alternative medicines etc. Surely I don't have to repeat myself here?
Okay. Understood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
You inferred that what I was saying wasn't true when you asked for the source on Charles's petulance, which I gave. I do feel attacked, and I stand by my views.
On the former point I explained why I was questioning it, and did so at some length across several posts. Thank you for the sourcing. As I already said, and also said I understood (I do believe).

On the latter point, asking for clarity and/or a source is not an attack in any debate/discussion I am usually in. Not sure that my letting you know that i was not intending to attack, will carry any weight with you, as often we do cling to what we want to believe about someone, not so?

It's late here and this posting back-and-forth is pointless except perhaps as a model of the difficulties inherent in this topic of conversation. It's wearying. Off to bed am I. All's well, on a positive note.
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  #2508  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I know I've read several places where the times that it showed that Charles was displeased with the attention Diana garnered was obvious. I'd have to pull out all the books and find the incidents. I vaguely remember a quote that Charles made at one time that he needed two wives. One for each side of the street.

I don't think his displeasure with Diana's attention was anything that the waiting public would have grasped on in the beginning but I do believe that it was there and Charles was very unused to it. As I said earlier, there were also times when Charles beamed with pride watching Diana draw 'em all in like flies to honey.
for goodness sake that was a JOKE. if you see the video when he said it you see that he said it In a jokey way,...OK I think there were times when he was a bit upset by the fact that people rushed to see her and ignored hm but I think that is perfectly understandable. I think it was Diana who glossed it as "Charles hated her getting attention" and was horrible to her about it. I don't believe he was unkind to her about it, he may have bene unhappy.. but I don't believe he shouted at her afterwards abuot the fact that she was getting allt the attention.
And in the early days I tink he was very proud of her being so beautiful, and getting noticed.. There is a quote in Austrailia of his saying to a pressman "look at her, sin't she lovely, I'm so proud of her..."
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  #2509  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:53 AM
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Is he really? (Real question, I actually didn't know)

I'd have thought these men would have their own means of living by now, inheritance from their mother included.

Who knows what kind of a private relationship Harry and William have with their father, or Camilla. I do remember reading an article about when Camilla met them, or at least Willliam for the first time after her relationship with Charles was finally made official. It went well, but she did feel the need for a large G&T afterwards!

Charles remarrying following his failed marriage with their beloved (and lost) mother was always going to be something of a difficulty, that it would be their mother's nemesis - putting the tin hat on it comes to mind.

Regardless of when the physical relationship resumed, the emotional relationship between Charles and Camilla was always there, before Diana, during her marriage and very obviously after Diana. She knew it back then and that was the problem.

Harry and Wiliam know that, so, a bit of a bridge to build.

IMO, they did build it. Going only on body language alone, there is nothing to suggest a distance between Charles and his sons when seen in public. I suppose it could be argued there is nothing to suggest an especial closeness either! But they all do appear to get along. Which is about as much as can be said about the public persona of any fragmented family group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I would say they have talked about her quite a bit over the years, long before now. However, he is their father and even if he is a bit prickly, I think that they love him and it is right that they take his feelings into account. he is paying for a lot of their lifestyle after all.
I've done it again!

Thinking I'm replying to the last post when it is actually only the last post on the page I'm on! Previous post in response to this one!
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  #2510  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:59 AM
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In the Tina Brown book 'The Diana Chronicles' there is a chapter called 'The Upstage Problem' and another called 'Stardust' in which she refers to Diana's effect on the crowds who came to see her and Charles's reaction to it, including quotes from people who were there. It was an unconscious effect by Diana in the beginning, and she did not have the least intention of upstaging her husband. Nevertheless she did, and at times he was ungracious about it and felt ignored (by the crowds.)

Other men , like JFK and King Willem Alexander of the Netherlands have made a joke of the fact that crowds loved their wives and haven't felt aggrieved.
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  #2511  
Old 07-02-2017, 05:05 AM
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yes at times he was bothered by it. Just because some men would not be bothered does not mean that every man (or woman) would not be bothered. Charles is an insecure shy man, its hard for him to overcome his shyness to do his job, but he has made himself do it.. and I can understand that he was at times unhappy that Diana was now getting crazy attention. I don't believe however he was shouting at her in private on the issue, just that it upset him. I know she didn't try to do it at first, she just was attractive to people, and could not help it. later she DID tryr to upstage him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Anna View Post
Is he really? (Real question, I actually didn't know)

I'd have thought these men would have their own means of living by now, inheritance from their mother included.

.

.
I'm not srue what you mean Dee Anna, but I think that if it is about Will Harry and their dad, it problaby is not quite "Charles and Diana", and maybe we should take it ot another thread? I Did say that Charles is paying for Will and Harry, is that what you mean?
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  #2512  
Old 07-02-2017, 05:13 AM
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Neither I nor Sarah Bradford whom I quoted on this said that he was shouting at Diana. Bradford quoted a member of staff who spoke of 'petulance' and she (the author) wrote of Charles's resentment. The member of staff said that Diana didn't understand (when she was trying so hard on the first Aus/NZ tour) and that she became upset at his reaction.
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  #2513  
Old 07-02-2017, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I'm not srue what you mean Dee Anna, but I think that if it is about Will Harry and their dad, it problaby is not quite "Charles and Diana", and maybe we should take it ot another thread? I Did say that Charles is paying for Will and Harry, is that what you mean?
Denville, see my previous last post. I've done it before (and probably will again!!), replied to not the last post. Hope that helps.
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  #2514  
Old 07-02-2017, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Neither I nor Sarah Bradford whom I quoted on this said that he was shouting at Diana. Bradford quoted a member of staff who spoke of 'petulance' and she (the author) wrote of Charles's resentment. The member of staff said that Diana didn't understand (when she was trying so hard on the first Aus/NZ tour) and that she became upset at his reaction.
yes he was upset and a bit petulant.. but it was understandable that he might react with some dismay. If he was shouting and yelling at her, I would fault him but I don't think he was. He was used to being the centre of attention, I think it is quite understandable that when he was left with people moaning and saying "Oh dear we've stood on the wrong side and only got HIM", he might be annoyed.
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  #2515  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:21 PM
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I think too that in reacting to something Charles has said in the past, sometimes we take it out of context years later. One thing I've noticed about Charles over the years is that his sense of humor, at times, can be very self effacing. The quote about wives on both sides of the street is one. Another could be when Will and Kate got engaged and he was asked for his reaction. He quipped "Well, they've been practicing long enough".

To be honest with you all, I haven't read anything in this thread that reeks of denigrating one to glorifying the other. I think all of here have a genuine interest in not only both Charles and Diana, but also the tumultuous period that they both went through with their marriage. We read about it, we discuss it and we've extensively torn it apart, turned it upside down and dug into the various elements of their marriage like the most professional of anthropologists and archaeologists. Its what we do and what we find interesting.

In a marriage such as Charles and Diana's was, there are no blatant good guys and bad guys and to be honest, none of us know the whole story. Only the two involved in the actual marriage do and even those two people had different viewpoints on what was and contradicted each other.

Confucius once stated a curse that goes "May you live in interesting times". One thing for certain is that Diana and Charles' relationship from the get go has been quite interesting.
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  #2516  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:35 PM
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well he obviously mean that remark to be taken as a joke.. whether he was secretly upset and trying to conceal it by humour I don't know. (I wouldn't say he's particulary witty or funny myself),
I think he was unhappy, yes but I don't believe he was angry with Diana or really giving her a hard time.. Mabye a bit of sulking. I think that in Aus when they could be together with William, they were tolerably happy, but unfortuanately that was not the main part of their life.. They were on the Royal duty merrygoround and they had to do their job. And it did create some tension between them. Diana was at first afraid of the crowds, in Wales and had to be coaxed a bit. Charles flet upset when she was so very popular and he was being ignored. But most marriages have problems of adjustment in their early years, and I dont think that Charles was acting like a monster at this stage..
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  #2517  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:06 PM
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I've had a relationship with someone like Diana (high strung drama queen) and basically I can't blame Charles for withdrawing from her. Thing is, that Diana was SO determined to be a miserable person some times that she clearly didn't WANT to be happy when she had the chance. When she talked about her sons being her 'men in her life' that was a huge red flag that she clearly wasn't at all healthy. I don't believe that she should be idealized or put on a pedestal by the public or any young person since she was someone who at some point didn't WANT to work to make her life better. It's also not right that she was excused when she was stalking that married man and screaming threats at the wives. Many keep making excuses for a lot of what she did and I did get disgusted with how she had the gall to openly BLAME Charles for the fact that royal life was a way of life where she had to make an effort and actually do things she didn't like or didn't want to and couldn't just shrug it all off.
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  #2518  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:42 PM
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Yes, and it was the same during 1983's tour of Canada. They appeared to be a happy couple.

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He certainly gave the impression of being positively smitten, if not besotted, by his wife on the NZ leg of the tour.
Just to clarify, the tour that I mentioned in my post re "Lady Di" was the tour that Charles made on his own in late March and April of 1981.
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  #2519  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:46 PM
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I know where you're coming from. A lot of people, when faced with a relationship with high drama coming from the other person, finds it best not to feed into it and walk away which actually does no better as would feeding into a screaming match would be. Charles, I believe, is a man that doesn't handle confrontation well so he was really caught between a rock and a hard place when dealing with Diana's temperament.

What I find that is a blessing is these forums where all aspects of these people come into play. The good, the bad, the ugly and the warts and warps of them are looked at. There's no black and white or saints or sinners but real human beings with very human foibles and very human achievements. Its nice to be able to look at and piece together what could be termed as the whole picture. Of course, we'll never entirely finish this jigsaw puzzle.
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  #2520  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:47 PM
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Didn't they usually appear as a 'happy couple' until right at the end of things? The trip to Asia (Korea?) was where the gig was up.


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