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  #2481  
Old 07-01-2017, 08:32 AM
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Please note that posts relating to the Panorama Interview have been moved to the following thread: The Panorama Interview: November 20, 1995 - lets please stay on topic.
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  #2482  
Old 07-01-2017, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Originally Posted by Denville


No 'Diana seems to have said' about it.

The entire world heard him say it in the engagement interview.

His actual words are 'whatever in love means' as clearly heard here.
I said that she said he used the words "whatever love means" at the proposal.. I know that he said it at the interview, but Diana said that he said to her when proposing in answer to her saying "I love you".. "whatever love means". And I take leave to doubt that....
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  #2483  
Old 07-01-2017, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
This is from Penny Junor's book. She spoke to many of Charles and Camilla's circle and has spoken on many occasions to Charles and to Camilla herself, so she knows quite a bit about them.
She herself notes that 'Discussions about their mother between the Princes and their father had always been very difficult'. She quotes a friend of Harry and William about it and no doubt believes his statement to be true or she wouldn't have put it in the biography.

'There is no doubt they' (W and H) ' love their father but from everything I've seen he is a complex man and difficult to be the son of sometimes, and his reactions to things aren't always as elevated as we might want them to be. Anything to do with their mother is really tricky. Their sensitivity about being seen to say anything about their mother is very noticeable. 'Talk about our mother? Oh God, we don't talk enough about our dad!'

'They are very careful of Charles's sensitivities and dance around them a lot. Like at the service'. (The tenth anniversary memorial service for Diana, where people have noted seeing that Charles looks over Harry's written tribute to his mother when he greets him.)

The friend remarks 'He, Charles, was very sensitive about where he sat and what it said.'

That memorial service was to bring together the Spencers and the royals, two sides that had been divided since Diana's death. Junor notes that Charles 'made a meal of the seating arrangements via his aide Michael Peat' (raising various objections.) William gave up but Harry said 'F... this!' and phoned his father. He said 'Right dad, you're sitting here, someone else is sitting there...blah, blah. Are you happy?' 'Oh Yes' Charles said. 'I suppose so'. ' William sat with his father at the service, Harry with the Spencers, opposite.

Now that portion of the latest bio from Penny Junor 'The Duchess' shows that there is some creeping about on eggshells going on in Charles and William and Harry's family relationship and it's Charles who's cracking the eggs. If this is coming from one of Charles and Camilla's greatest supporters, Penny Junor, heaven knows what really goes on!
Thank you very much for this summary.

I don't dispute Junor's representation and assessment of things but I do wonder if it is outdated since obviously William and Harry do discuss their mother in public without feeling the need to give equal time to Charles nor presumably letting his sensitivities be paramount, and I highly doubt that Charles has become substantially more sanguine about the matter.
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  #2484  
Old 07-01-2017, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
Thank you very much for this summary.

I don't dispute Junor's representation and assessment of things but I do wonder if it is outdated since obviously William and Harry do discuss their mother in public without feeling the need to give equal time to Charles nor presumably letting his sensitivities be paramount, and I highly doubt that Charles has become substantially more sanguine about the matter.
I am leaning towards the opinion that, over the years, Charles probably did mellow into a state where he could happily recall the good times he had with Diana. Emotions and thoughts about an acrimonious marriage and divorce tend to be a lot different while actually going through it than years later.

Charles proved that he could do right by his ex-wife just by the examples he set around the time of the fatal accident. He didn't have to go to Paris to escort her body back to the UK. He didn't have to get so involved in assuring that Diana's funeral was fitting for who she was. He didn't have to walk behind her coffin with her sons. He did these things. He loves his sons and at one time, loved their mother.

Twenty years after all this happened, he's a man much more comfortable in his own skin. He's happy and secure in a loving marriage and his children have grown into adults. He's moved on with his life. I don't think it would be difficult to imagine that he'd happily share the good memories with his boys because, when we think about it, his boys are two of the best things that came out of their marriage. Diana is a part of who they all are and as time passed, the hurts and anger fade away and the good is what remains.
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  #2485  
Old 07-01-2017, 04:42 PM
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I think we may be talking about different timeframes. I think that Charles' harshest feelings towards Diana had mellowed even before her death, in fact I am not sure that Charles even had the same level of bitterness towards Diana that she had towards him. However that does not mean that Charles did not have, if not issues with Diana herself, issues that were rooted in his bad marriage to Diana, the War of the Wales and the response to her death that affected, among other things, his relationship with his sons. Also it should be noted that (IMO) Charles also has issues and shortcomings that can't be totally attributed to his and Diana's messy relationship.

My interpretation is that Curryong's summary was mostly about the years after Diana's death and Charles is described as "a complex man and difficult to be the son of sometimes, and his reactions to things aren't always as elevated as we might want them to be. Anything to do with their mother is really tricky." It seems like William and Harry reacted by themselves being sensitive to Charles sensitivities. The example given to illustrate how William and Harry "danced around" Charles's sensitivities was to relay what happened during the planning of a memorial service that took place ten years after Diana's death.

My point is that William and Harry's current behavior does not jibe with what is being described in Junor's book and that (IMO) it is not Charles who has changed in the ensuing ten years, rather it is William and Harry who have changed and they are no longer allowing themselves to be hamstrung by Charles's "sensitivities".
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  #2486  
Old 07-01-2017, 05:05 PM
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Its just occurred to me reading your post, Queen Claude, at the root of everything were two people that had some serious issues of their own but expressed them quite differently. Charles, the introvert and sensitive, kept things that bothered him pretty close to the vest. Diana, with a more extroverted nature, expressed hers openly and sometimes even exaggerated them. William and Harry grew up with the both of them and knew them both extremely well.

Both Charles and Diana were seeking the same things from each other but neither one of them could fill that role. I do think Charles has mellowed and has become a more confident person due to having found a relationship that is nurturing and supportive. Its just sad that Diana never really had the chance to find her own nurturer to balance her out.
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  #2487  
Old 07-01-2017, 05:06 PM
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I agree with Osipi's previous comment re Charles and Diana's courtship: "
Actually, at the onset of their courtship and their subsequent engagement, I do believe there were three in the picture. Diana, Charles and The Prince of Wales."

I'd add that once the courtship became known about, there was a fourth person: Lady Di, the creation of the press.

I believe that it was Anthony Holden (or perhaps Robert Lacey) who wrote that Prince Charles really fell for Diana during his tour of Australia after their engagement, when he saw the reaction of how people responded to Diana--which was the media image of her.
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  #2488  
Old 07-02-2017, 12:26 AM
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He certainly gave the impression of being positively smitten, if not besotted, by his wife on the NZ leg of the tour.
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  #2489  
Old 07-02-2017, 12:43 AM
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In the early days, it wasn't unusual to see Charles beaming at his wife with pride and catching the two of them stealing glances at each other across the room. There was magnetism there. The two of them also looked so perfectly in tune when they were on the dance floor too.
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  #2490  
Old 07-02-2017, 12:58 AM
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I think I posted something a while back, that was quite a long piece from a person who was a witness to Charles and Diana's first Aus and NZ tour. He said that although they did relax with baby Wills on their rest days at a particular location, that there were strains even then, that Charles would make sarcastic remarks to her about her popularity with the people and she wouldn't know how to reply and would cry. So what we saw (and I can remember that tour quite well. I saw them and thought how lovely it all was) was often only a bit of the picture.
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  #2491  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I think I posted something a while back, that was quite a long piece from a person who was a witness to Charles and Diana's first Aus and NZ tour. He said that although they did relax with baby Wills on their rest days at a particular location, that there were strains even then, that Charles would make sarcastic remarks to her about her popularity with the people and she wouldn't know how to reply and would cry. So what we saw (and I can remember that tour quite well. I saw them and thought how lovely it all was) was often only a bit of the picture.
Doesn't jive with what we know of the character of the man. It is inexplicable what you are suggesting. It would be nice to see the source again as this is a very damning assertion (that plays too neatly into a certain narrative). It's contrary to everything I have ever read. So could you please supply the link to the source?
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  #2492  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:03 AM
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From Sarah Bradford's biography Diana. Chapter 7. 'Di-Mania'

'I think they were happy, they had William out there, a sort of family enclave', a member of staff recalled. 'But one was aware of little tensions. He couldn't understand that people wanted to see her. He couldn't understand that people wanted to see a beautiful woman rather than a man in a suit. And that was really sad actually. It was so unnecessary because together they were absolute dynamite.
But one was just aware of a sort of petulance in him and she I think, found it very difficult, knowing how to cope with that. And she was quite emotional at that time...there were tears...she didn't understand and it was all very stressful..'

Bradford goes on 'Things however were to go from bad to worse and Charles's resentment at his wife's popularity began to poison their relationship. His puzzlement at people's reaction to her was palpable, as he once said to a friend 'Why do they love her so much? All she ever did was say 'Yes' to me.'

There are plenty of references in biographies I've read, including pro Charles ones written by Junor and others to Charles's petulance at his wife's popularity, to sarcastic put-downs of her testified to by others. I have chosen this one because that's the former post I referred to.
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  #2493  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:31 AM
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Well I can assure you that on their first Australasian visit they were definitely still besotted. I and several people with me spoke with him and he looked soo happy that he had to bring Diana back and introduce her and we were nobody important whatsoever! He just wanted to introduce his lovely wife, and here I will say that of every photo I had ever seen, and by then it was probably thousands rather than hundreds, not one had fully done her justice. She was glorious but more than that she was charismatically magnetic. She radiated. Stunning, absolutely stunning and Charles looked at her with such joy and gentle love.

Being spiteful and mean enough to bring her to tears in public just plain doesn't ring true on any level at this or any stage. That they got to the stage that either of them could hurt or bring the other down or to tears is quite probable as their marriage was crumbling around them before their separation. But to say that at that stage sounds like the words of someone in the "it was an arranged marriage where Charles never loved her at all and only needed a brood mare" brigade! Nasty, very nasty.

Edit: "Tasteless, one vulgarity too far, Sarah Bradford", who wrote of Prince Philip's infidelity yet offered no source nor proof and who now says that perhaps she got it wrong and Philip just likes to flirt! A very sound source there when you consider cards and letters sent from both Charles and Diana are falling into the hands of the next generation and the auctioneers block soon after. And Philip lives in an age of letters and notes, not texts, tweets and emails.
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  #2494  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:31 AM
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Thank you, Curryong. I seem to have read the same books you have (and even recently in one straight go) and yet do not recall there being issues of this kind early in the marriage. Maybe in the mid to late 80's? What I do recall are stories of his solicitude and care with her, and one can see it in his body language with her.

It's a puzzle. It's not at all a given (imo) that these stories, if true, are giving the full picture. Diana had her part to play in all the action-reaction going on between them. There is something selective going on in order to give substance to a certain narrative that has as it's aim something pretty nasty. JMO. But something doesn't ring true.

Just saw this -

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Being spiteful and mean enough to bring her to tears in public just plain doesn't ring true on any level at this or any stage. That they got to the stage that either of them could hurt or bring the other down or to tears is quite probable as their marriage was crumbling around them before their separation. But to say that at that stage sounds like the words of someone in the "it was an arranged marriage where Charles never loved her at all and only needed a brood mare" brigade! Nasty, very nasty.
I agree. There is something not adding up when these claims are made for so early in the marriage.
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  #2495  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:33 AM
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After a lifetime of everyone kowtowing to him and being surrounded by cowering "yes sir" people for all of his life, its easy to see where all of a sudden, he's being pushed to the wayside because of his wife. Its something he couldn't even begin to fathom. It was totally foreign to him. Diana, at that time wasn't seeking to overshadow Charles, it just happened.
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  #2496  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
After a lifetime of everyone kowtowing to him and being surrounded by cowering "yes sir" people for all of his life, its easy to see where all of a sudden, he's being pushed to the wayside because of his wife. Its something he couldn't even begin to fathom. It was totally foreign to him. Diana, at that time wasn't seeking to overshadow Charles, it just happened.
You are accepting Curryong's claim as reflecting the truth. We simply never saw this take place in public, however, we for sure saw Diana's glee putting Charles down in public in the later 80's. It's on tape. Charles never spoke ill of Diana, ever, never once did he, or has he even to now, spoken ill of her. Plenty have spoken ill of Charles, and many are eager to hear it. Why is that?
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  #2497  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:43 AM
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Yes, I saw her on that tour, can remember it so well, and people waiting for ages to see her. I saw her and 'stunning and charismatic' doesn't begin to describe Diana. She drew every eye, and the crowds to see her were massive. Aussies loved her, there's no doubt about that!
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Old 07-02-2017, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Yes, I saw her on that tour, can remember it so well, and people waiting for ages to see her. I saw her and 'stunning and charismatic' doesn't begin to describe Diana. She drew every eye, and the crowds to see her were massive. Aussies loved her, there's no doubt about that!
Because she stirred your soul so deeply, what does that mean? It's a serious question. Does charisma translate to virtue? Is being good-looking synonymous with goodness? What does that charisma mean to you?

The phenomenon of being able to stir hearts and minds deeply is an interesting one. Try being up-close-and-personal with such a person: it's never the projection that is revealed. There are those who can receive our projections but few who can live up to the expectations we develop around them. It's an old story.
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  #2499  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:53 AM
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You are accepting Curryong's claim as reflecting the truth. We simply never saw this take place in public, however, we for sure saw Diana's glee putting Charles down in public in the later 80's. It's on tape. Charles never spoke ill of Diana, ever, never once did he, or has he even to now, spoken ill of her. Plenty have spoken ill of Charles, and many are eager to hear it. Why is that?
It is not MY claim. It is in a biography and I've given the source. This person was interviewed by Bradford. You seem incapable of believing that Charles was capable of resentment or sarcasm or irritability, and think it must be Diana manipulating it.

Charles's own two latest biographies written by two different women have given ample examples of his behaviour towards others which have not placed him in a good light to say the least.

Why should that be any different for Diana if he felt irritable, petulant and hard done by? Those crowds loved her and he in private, when they were in NSW with William, wasn't impressed, and feeling neglected, took his spleen about the situation out on her and she found it upsetting, as she wasn't, in 1984, trying to outshine her husband. I find it very believable.
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Old 07-02-2017, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
It is not MY claim. It is in a biography and I've given the source. This person was interviewed by Bradford. You seem incapable of believing that Charles was capable of resentment or sarcasm or irritability, and think it must be Diana manipulating it.
That I did not say, just to be clear.

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Charles's own two latest biographies written by two different women have given ample examples of his behaviour towards others which have not placed him in a good light to say the least.
I haven't read the latest but I have read the one previous and I do not recall what you are suggesting. His faults are mentioned, yes, but i don't recall anything said that would lead me to your conclusion that they 'have not placed him in a good light.'

I think we just interpret the evidence differently.

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Why should that be any different for Diana if he felt irritable, petulant and hard done by? Those crowds loved her and he in private, when they were in NSW with William, wasn't impressed, and feeling neglected, took his spleen about the situation out on her and she found it upsetting. I find it very believable.
Okay. Understood. Point made and taken.
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