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  #2261  
Old 04-14-2017, 03:54 PM
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"And while she had the lover she was dallying elsewhere, too." ?"
what evidence is there of this??
I assume you mean James Hewitt..and I don't know of her having another lover while she was with him. I don't believe she was "having fun with a number of lovers" as you appear to tthink..
Hewitt partly solved her problems of loneliness and gave her a pleasant relationship and a sex life for a time.. but he was disloyal and ultimately selfish.. and she was not IMO all htat happy. She was unhappy because the man she loved, the father of her children was not interested in her.. and because she could not have an open relationship with another man.. and she was constantly worrying that her affair with JH would get out.
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  #2262  
Old 04-14-2017, 03:57 PM
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Lady Nimue, we all know Diana had her own affairs. None of the those affairs really made her happy gave her that much comfort. She wanted love and comfort from her husband. Her downfall was she picked bad men.

She wasn't addicted by the love and comfort from the crowds. They liked her and she liked them. There's nothing wrong with forming a warm relationship with the public. She was their princess and they were her people. When she passed, the public came out for her and said goodbye. To this day, people like to dismiss the real feelings the public felt about Diana and her tragic passing. They like calling it media hyped hysteria and such. It's was just plain love and grief for Diana.

All the senior royals try to manage their PR. The royals love the good press and hate the bad press. It's a love/hate relationship that will carry on throughout the lives of the next generation of royals too. That's the reality of being a public figure.
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  #2263  
Old 04-14-2017, 04:39 PM
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I agree that I think she would rather have had the love of her husband, or a lover whom she could openly be seen with, than "the adulation of the crowds". I think that it idd become a substitute love for her.. it helped a bit to make up for the loneliness she suffered in her marriage and with her kids growing up and having to spend time with the RF.
and indeed she was no different to other Royals in trying to manage her PR and get a "good image". ]
I would not say she always picked bad men, Hewitt was selfish, yes, Hoare was discreett but he let her down. Dodi was a lightweight but I think that Khan was a good man who loved her, and maybe there was a man out there who could take on the baggage of a woman who was the ex wife of a prince and a global icon...
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  #2264  
Old 04-14-2017, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
"And while she had the lover she was dallying elsewhere, too." ?"
what evidence is there of this??
I assume you mean James Hewitt..and I don't know of her having another lover while she was with him. I don't believe she was "having fun with a number of lovers" as you appear to tthink..
Hewitt partly solved her problems of loneliness and gave her a pleasant relationship and a sex life for a time.. but he was disloyal and ultimately selfish.. and she was not IMO all htat happy. She was unhappy because the man she loved, the father of her children was not interested in her.. and because she could not have an open relationship with another man.. and she was constantly worrying that her affair with JH would get out.
James Gilbey. The two relationships over lapped a great deal. Though it us said Diana was never as close to Gilbey. Some recordings caused a scandal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squidgygate
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  #2265  
Old 04-14-2017, 04:52 PM
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Marriage is what both parties make out of it. There are no guarantees that the wedding will instantly bestow a happy marriage on a couple.

Both parties made their own mistakes and went about things the wrong way and neither were very good at the give and take of compromise. If C&D had been ordinary people living ordinary lives, the marriage itself probably would have been much, much shorter.
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  #2266  
Old 04-14-2017, 11:10 PM
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FOr Diana, I think that a "cosy nested life" would have included a husbadnd and children and that was nto that easy to find.
Maybe, but we actually don't really know what Diana was aiming for personally. My comment was that I have never understood why she did not opt for a cozy nested life, though I have my hunches as I've read about her. Who knows.

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Idont knowwhat you mean by your remarks about class and status.
I think you do given what you say here -

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The fact is that as an "ex princess" who had been married to a future king, she was going to seem "above" many men who might have been her equals socialy and financially when she was single. that's a fact, she was still the mother of a future king and the divorced wife of a future king. her status didn't drop THAT far.
You are describing class and status beliefs in the forgoing. They are beliefs that potentially (maybe) constrained her but I don't really know. Do you? I mean that sincerely. Does anyone? I'm asking sincerely, anyone know? For someone who seemed to want 'normality' for her sons, and had such an averse reaction to 'royal life' as lived by the current monarch, something doesn't add up here with what you are saying about 'status'.

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As regards status issues, and money issues I'd say that any man with any pride would feel that he should be on some kind of level pegging with his wife.. so as I've said Diana had to go to the "super rich" and was dating Dodi Fayed, but I am not sure if she was very serious about him and she seemed to be getting bored with him by the end of their holiday. Of course Khan did not feel inferior to her as a person, but I think one of his issues with her was that he felt that as a former princess, she would not be able to become the wife of a doctor.
I will respect what you believe as stated here, dear Denville. I am a feminist (a Marxist feminist, no less, according to one quiz I just took on FB ) and I just see through a different lens than you do regarding male/female relations. In fact it just struck me that I may be at a disadvantage when assessing Diana because I am not of her time and place regarding male-female stuff.

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As for your remarks "I believe Diana fully intended to partake in the aristocratic free-form marriage scenario common then" I think that you are completely wrong.
Oh, yes, I think I am very much on the mark. It explains her attitude of untouchability. Watch her for any length of time (as I have on YouTube) and you will see a very sure-of-herself person (arched glances notwithstanding, there is a steeliness to her manner, she knows herself). We even have quotes from people who knew her during her early married life mentioning how 'commanding' she was, willful. (I am aware of the bulimia. What I am suggesting is not contradictory. It's all about control).

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If that were the case, she would never have cared about Camilla. She would have been quiet about charles' affair because if she wanted to go on having affairs herself, her best protection was to be part of the RF who would protect her... and for Charles to be busy with his mistress and busy keeping his indiscretion from the Press.
Look at the timeline. She threw Camilla under the bus because Camilla was convenient for her purposes at the time. Diana was in hot water. The newspapers were starting to break the stories of her affairs, and the tapes were hanging over her, the Squidgy tapes. Did someone tip her off to those? I am actually very fuzzy about those tapes and Charles' tapes, the timeline on the two. She did what she did to deflect away from herself. She had to accuse first. She had to spin first. She did.

Charles did not have to keep busy hiding anything. He was discreet already. I cannot find any allusions to Charles' infidelity at the time (prior to the tape). Was there? [EDIT: Yes, there was, in the late 80's there were articles about both Charles and Diana having 'outside interests' and no longer co-habiting.] There was plenty of talk about Diana especially with the tapes tumbling out. Is this the way a future Queen behaves? One can imagine the fear set in motion. The Morton book and Diana's spin in it were her mounting a defense for the seriousness of her transgression. Instead of it being about her it became about a boring stuffy royal life with a 'ridiculous' Prince, etc. Inspired. That's how I see it.
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  #2267  
Old 04-14-2017, 11:29 PM
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Lady Nimue, we all know Diana had her own affairs. None of the those affairs really made her happy gave her that much comfort. She wanted love and comfort from her husband. Her downfall was she picked bad men.
Not according to Diana. She 'adored' Hewitt. We just have to look at the body language to see how smitten she was and how fully into it he was. He was her lap dog, I do believe, and during those years she presented in public as a radiant, in-love presence. She was happy. She was not pining away for love as best as I can see.

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She wasn't addicted by the love and comfort from the crowds.
Well, the evidence is to the contrary, I fear. She called up the press to let them know where she would be for photo-ops. I call that a kind of addiction.

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They liked her and she liked them. There's nothing wrong with forming a warm relationship with the public. She was their princess and they were her people.
Okay. Rock stars have that. Actors have that. Presidents and Popes have that. But none of it is 'real'. It's not intimate, personal life. Remember Janis Joplin's famous line about going home alone?

Also, 'wrongness' has nothing to do with any of it. A good rapport with a crowd is to be desired for anyone who stands in front of a crowd, else it's a lynch mob. But I wouldn't take that 'adulation' home to bed. A mistake. It's fickle, as she was experiencing.

Question: were they 'her people'? Weren't they actually The Queen's people first, then Charles' people? How could they be 'the consort's people'? If this is all true for Diana then it all must apply to Camilla, who has Diana's exact same status as Charles' wife. But I have a hunch you would not ascribe that to Camilla (not that she would even want to go down that road, that way of thinking about herself).

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When she passed, the public came out for her and said goodbye. To this day, people like to dismiss the real feelings the public felt about Diana and her tragic passing. They like calling it media hyped hysteria and such. It's was just plain love and grief for Diana.
Well, it was definitely a drama. Very karmic. Strange to watch then, strange to watch now on video.

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All the senior royals try to manage their PR. The royals love the good press and hate the bad press. It's a love/hate relationship that will carry on throughout the lives of the next generation of royals too. That's the reality of being a public figure.
Not like Diana did. She was unique as far as I can see.
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  #2268  
Old 04-15-2017, 02:01 AM
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Lady Nimue,

The guys Diana had in her life only gave her a short and false sense of happiness. Now I do think, had she loved, Diana would've found a stable relationship. It just was t in the cards for her though.

Yes, the people are the royals subjects. It's a good thing if the royals and people form a good relationship with each other. Diana enjoyed meeting members of the public, especially the elderly. There was no addiction but a good working and friendly relationship.

We'll just agree to disagree here.

Diana had ups and downs with PR like all public figures have. The royals PR are a funny thing.
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  #2269  
Old 04-15-2017, 02:23 AM
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It is one thing to have a good "presence" and be liked and accepted by the general public but its a total different ball of wax to obsess over the way one is looked at by the public and media. There have been many sources that stated that Diana kept a close eye on everything that was published about her and what every reporter said about her. It mattered greatly to her. Very few personages that have a big public presence obsess on their image as much as Diana did. In this respect, she was very narcissistic. The public and the media defined who she was to herself.

I find it kind of sad that Diana is remembered for all her good works and how she helped and cared about people. In her private life, I think one of her biggest troubles was being able to form a mature, loving relationship with all the give and takes and the compromises and such. Diana was too concerned about how people were treating her and how people weren't stacking up to what she wanted them to be and didn't have the insight to realize that it works both ways.
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  #2270  
Old 04-15-2017, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
James Gilbey. The two relationships over lapped a great deal. Though it us said Diana was never as close to Gilbey. Some recordings caused a scandal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squidgygate
I don't believe this at all. I don't think that Diana was sexually involved with Gilbey and from what she says in the taped conversation, she is referring to her affiar with Hewitt as In the past.. that she "decked him out in fancy clothes" and it is well known that the affair broke for some time whle he was working abroad.. and that she and he got back together for a short time when he ahd been serving in the GUlf.
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  #2271  
Old 04-15-2017, 03:30 AM
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I find it kind of sad that Diana is remembered for all her good works and how she helped and cared about people. In her private life, I think one of her biggest troubles was being able to form a mature, loving relationship with all the give and takes and the compromises and such. Diana was too concerned about how people were treating her and how people weren't stacking up to what she wanted them to be and didn't have the insight to realize that it works both ways.
I'd say that most people in the public eye obsess to a greater or lesser degree about how the public perceives them. It is necessary to an extent.. they need the publicity..
Plenty of actors, politicians etc are "narcisstic" if you like ot put it that way. it doesn't take away form their talents (if they have any).
I don't know why you think it is "sad" that she's remembered for her good works? Why would that be sad? She did do a lot of good, she was good to many people who have cause to be grateful to her for generous donations, personal kindnesses like visiting them in hospital or writing letters, etc. Things over and above the normal "charity royal" duties. Why is it sad that she is remembered for her good deeds? I would say that what is sad is that she's more remembered now for her weak points, such as her unhappy marriage, unhappy love affairs etc.
Yes she did have faults and weaknesses, she had psychological problems resulting IMO from a bad childhood, which left her vulnerable and she made a big mistake in believing that the only way she could fulfil herself was by marriage. She ended up in a high stress lifestyle and marriage that left her exposed to media attention.. so naturally when she found her marriage unfulfilling, and found the media attention was on her no matter what she did, she tried to manipulate it.. so as to keep herself admired by the public.
She was afraid that if her affairs became public knowledge, given that the world is still a sexist place, she would be blamed more for her affair with Hewitt than Charles would be blamed for his with Camilla so she did try more and more to manipulate the media and they are not that easy to handle. But in spite of her problems, she did a lot of good with her public life and with her boys, (while they are IMO nothing special) she was a good mother and helped them to develop and be royals for the 21st century, and one hopes to have a happy private life..
Considering that she was a fragile person, I tink she did a lot of good with her life.. so I don't know why it is sad that she is remembered for those good works.
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  #2272  
Old 04-15-2017, 03:42 AM
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It is one thing to have a good "presence" and be liked and accepted by the general public but its a total different ball of wax to obsess over the way one is looked at by the public and media. There have been many sources that stated that Diana kept a close eye on everything that was published about her and what every reporter said about her. It mattered greatly to her. Very few personages that have a big public presence obsess on their image as much as Diana did. In this respect, she was very narcissistic. The public and the media defined who she was to herself.

I find it kind of sad that Diana is remembered for all her good works and how she helped and cared about people. In her private life, I think one of her biggest troubles was being able to form a mature, loving relationship with all the give and takes and the compromises and such. Diana was too concerned about how people were treating her and how people weren't stacking up to what she wanted them to be and didn't have the insight to realize that it works both ways.
The royals are always informed and read up about themselves in the media. William even mentioned this in one of his recent interviews. He knows what people say about him and those "workshy"comments. Some of the opinions goes out the window, and some they take to heart. Even The Queen reads the papers and magazines that feature the family. They care.

Diana was no different. She did care about what people said and thought about her. Many public figures do this.

The problem is people have tried to make it seem like Diana was some kind of unstable alien from another planet. She was a human being with lot of flaws like the rest of us. She had insecurities, eating issues, she had love and lost love. She went through some highs and lows of life. I think it was part of what made her so relatable to so many people. She wasn't a perfect princess who lived in some far away castle and who looked down on everybody. She had a way of letting everyone know that just because she had a title and all the trappings of royalty, her life wasn't all that together. Like most people on this planet.
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Old 04-15-2017, 05:23 AM
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Absolutely agree on that!

Of course the RF are fully up to speed on what is being written or said about them, daily, for the major members I imagine. Their staff teams have employees whose jobs are dedicated to ensuring this happens.

Nowadays it's fairly predictable, the waters are calm, no scuds on any horizon!

I imagine back during the War of the Wales years must have been a fairly hetic time for the then employees!

Agree with your concept of Diana also. She wasn't perfect (thank goodness! Who is?) and neither, on the other end of the extreme scale was she the bizarre, almost schizophrenic persona who crops up from time to time.

She had her issues (her marriage being a large one) and she handled them in her own way. Like all of us, sometimes good choices, sometimes bad. Only difference, ours don't tend to make the national press headlines!
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:15 PM
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I'm taking my mum to the Diana dress exhibition at Kensington Palace. The fact that it is being held at one of the Historic Royal Palaces goes to show that Diana has, and always will have, an important place in the history of the British royal family.

I'm pretty much 'over' all discussion of Diana being unsuitable etc as Charles's wife. Long story short it was anybody's fault but her's. Partly Charles but not even his fault really as he was just doing as he has been told. Had to marry a girl who was titled and a virgin. If not forced to that he could have married Camila in the first place. I'm just fed up of reading that Diana was to blame. She was just a teenager who fell in love and got dropped in at the deep end with no support. The royal family know that now, hence making sure not to make the same mistake with Kate Middleton.

As a big Diana fan I don't bear Camilla any grudge and I am glad Charles is happy and the Duchess does seem to be doing a good job.
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  #2275  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:40 PM
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So Diana was lying when she said that she was 50% to blame for the breakdown of her marriage - which she did.

If she can accept 50% of the blame why can't her fans?
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  #2276  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:45 PM
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Why did Diana and Charles not divorce sooner? Like the early 1990s as opposed to 1996?
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  #2277  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:49 PM
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Its a question that has gone round quite a few times. Check out the different threads in the Diana subforum.
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  #2278  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:49 PM
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So Diana was lying when she said that she was 50% to blame for the breakdown of her marriage - which she did.

If she can accept 50% of the blame why can't her fans?
Her fans do accept that she is partly to blame for the breakdown of her marriage. I know I do.
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Old 04-16-2017, 11:34 PM
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I don't want to go round and round with this. I was just responding to something someone said on the other forum which this post was moved from about Diana being unsuitable as a wife for Charles. My main point was about the exhibition. I might have known people would pounce on my other statement. It's my opinion and my opinion only. I can see that this forum is not going to be as friendly as I assumed it was so I will probably bow out, but before I do I will just say:

She probably meant by 50/50 that her and Charles were both partly to blame. Out of two people if both are half, that has to be 50/50. She could hardly say the blame was with the establishment who wanted a good titled no-skeletens-in-the-closets brood mare. Plus of course somebody who suffers from self-loathing is going to try to take a lot of the blame. Having suffered from mental health problems including annorexia myself I do know what I am talking about (I weighed 60 pounds at my lowest and came close to dying, I am 5 feet 3.5 inches tall).
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Old 04-16-2017, 11:41 PM
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Oh, Squirrel, I am so sorry to hear that. You obviously have special insight into this condition, and I agree with you. I think Diana was valiant in performing all the engagements she did in her public life and helping others when she felt so low, so ill, so unappreciated by her husband.

Hope you enjoy the exhibition. I'd love to see it myself.
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