Charles and Diana

[TLLK]

I firmly believe if they had spent at least a year dating, more time together alone (spending most of your time with friends creates a buffer) they would never of made it to engagement point.

It's rather sad they spent so many years unhappy.

LaRae

I agree. Probably one or both of them would have come to the realization that deep down their interests and personalities were not compatible for the long term.



While there was enormous pressure on Charles to marry, it would have been better for both of them to have moved on to other prospective partners.

 

[SLV]

Would there have been time to date for a year? I remember reading about Diana being stalked by the media even then. If so, they would not have had the time.

 

[Denville]

Would there have been time to date for a year? I remember reading about Diana being stalked by the media even then. If so, they would not have had the time.

Generally speaking royal courtships were fairly short. And because Charles was already 31 or 2, and diana was so fascinating to the press, there was pressure. The papers wanted her for C's bride, and Charles himself was under pressure from his family who were in effect saying "Yo're getting older, you need to get yourself married.. and the press are driving us mad, if you let Diana go, its going to look bad..."

the Pressmen were chasing Diana, the interest was massive and the RF were feeling that none of them could put up with the stress for much longer. SO it was likely that under that pressure, Charles stifled his doubts and proposed. And Diana was keen to get things settled. But if there had been time for them to have a longer relationship, I don't think it would have led to the them breaking up.. I think she was able to hypnotise herself that she was the right wife for charles…and that she enjoyed all the things that he enjoyed...
He was wiling to stilfe his uneasy feelings, and they would have still ended up in a mess...

 

[Sandy345]

DIana was 19 a teen and besotted by this older man who appeared (to her) to be in love with her and she called him "amazing." Charles looking at this eager besotted teen should have done some reflecting--if he knew he did not love her then it was time to move on. Diana was still young and would IMO have moved on and found someone who returned her affection and fully returned it. From what I read, Diana had prepared herself for the possibility that there would be no proposal. I think if they had dated longer, maybe Charles would have felt he should be honest and Diana would have asked him to be more forthright with her. I don't think Diana had to hypnotise herself, she genuinely was attracted to and besotted with Charles.

 

[Denville]

DIana was 19 a teen and besotted by this older man who appeared (to her) to be in love with her and she called him "amazing." Charles looking at this eager besotted teen should have done some reflecting--if he knew he did not love her then it was time to move on. Diana was still young and would IMO have moved on and found someone who returned her affection and fully returned it. From what I read, Diana had prepared herself for the possibility that there would be no proposal. I think if they had dated longer, maybe Charles would have felt he should be honest and Diana would have asked him to be more forthright with her. I don't think Diana had to hypnotise herself, she genuinely was attracted to and besotted with Charles.

but according to what Diana said later, Charles didn't see that much of her, was never affectionate, and they only had a few dates. Why would she feel that he was in love with her?

 

[TLLK]

Generally speaking royal courtships were fairly short. And because Charles was already 31 or 2, and diana was so fascinating to the press, there was pressure. The papers wanted her for C's bride, and Charles himself was under pressure from his family who were in effect saying "Yo're getting older, you need to get yourself married.. and the press are driving us mad, if you let Diana go, its going to look bad..."

the Pressmen were chasing Diana, the interest was massive and the RF were feeling that none of them could put up with the stress for much longer. SO it was likely that under that pressure, Charles stifled his doubts and proposed. And Diana was keen to get things settled. But if there had been time for them to have a longer relationship, I don't think it would have led to the them breaking up.. I think she was able to hypnotise herself that she was the right wife for charles…and that she enjoyed all the things that he enjoyed...
He was wiling to stilfe his uneasy feelings, and they would have still ended up in a mess...

You do bring up a good point regarding the media attention and the length of the couple's courtship.


In an idea situation, it would have been better for the two to date for a longer period of time without the media realizing that they were a couple. That along with the pressure for Charles at 32 to marry as soon as possible likely contributed to him proposing when he did.



Sadly both did have reservations but both were willing to ignore them or hope that things would improve.

 

[Denville]

You do bring up a good point regarding the media attention and the length of the couple's courtship.


In an idea situation, it would have been better for the two to date for a longer period of time without the media realizing that they were a couple. That along with the pressure for Charles at 32 to marry as soon as possible likely contributed to him proposing when he did.



Sadly both did have reservations but both were willing to ignore them or hope that things would improve.

I don't thnk it would have made any difference though. The media did add to the pressure but it was an "old fashioned" courtship, ie not very long, not the 2 of thtem on their own a lot, and IMO they both wanted to get married. Charles less so but I think he was feeling that it was his duty to marry and he wanted to settle down.. and Diana seemed to be the right one, even if he was not passionately in love with her. He said that he saw marriage as more of friendship than "romantic love" and she seemed to share many of his interests. She was sweet, she was attractive, she was (he thought) aware of the limitations and restrictions of royal life as her family had been courtiers... and she seemed to be happy with him and to go along with his plans.
And I think that had they been able to date for a year in private, Diana would still have convinced herself that she was enjoying the sporty weekends, the visits to Balmoral etc...so he would not have realised even after a longer time, that she didn't really enjoy a lot of the things that he enjoyed...

And I think on reflection it would have been very difficult if not impossible for the courtship to have been "secret from the press". The big royal story in the 1970s was C's love life, who his girlfriends were and who he was going to marry. The royal reporters were chasing him all the time to see who he was dating, how likely a prospect was she etc? It was different by the time Will and Kate were dating.

Tehir relationship was known about but I'd say the press knew this would not be a short romance, that this time, the RF were going to encourage William to take his time...so while they did pester the couple, there wasn't the same hot chase...and William was able to spend time with Kate, go on holidays with her, live with her and generally take literally years giving their relationship time to develop.

 

[TLLK]

Tehir relationship was known about but I'd say the press knew this would not be a short romance, that this time, the RF were going to encourage William to take his time...so while they did pester the couple, there wasn't the same hot chase...and William was able to spend time with Kate, go on holidays with her, live with her and generally take literally years giving their relationship time to develop.

Yes Denville I agree. Also I believe that the BRF realized that the short courtships for Charles/Diana and Andrew/Sarah were not ideal. So it's not surprising to me that William, Zara and Eugenie all dated their spouses for a long time.


By the time that Prince Edward and Sophie Rhys-Jones began dating, the family appeared to be encouraging longer courtships. To date, this has been the only first marriage for the children of QEII and the DoE's that has lasted the longest as the Wessexes celebrated their 20th anniversary last year.


The second marriages for Charles and Anne appear to have been more successful too.

 

[Sandy345]

Bea took a "long time" dating Dave Clark who dropped her so the 'formula" does not always work. Anne did not have a "short" courtship with Mark Phillips--and they did have a lot of interests in common.
Charles admitted he did not love DIana through his confessions to his biographer. It was not a matter of being "passionate." She was many years younger than he was so she did not travel in his "set." He did not seem to want to see what Diana enjoyed, she had to please him. It should have been a two way street.

 

[Curryong]

Did Charles tell Diana that he was head over heels in love with her, that she was the one for him, that he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, before he proposed or at the time he asked her to marry him?

If it was a bald 'Will you marry me?' with no declarations before or during of passion or romance or even an 'I love you, darling', then that IMO would make anyone pause before answering, even a young girl in love.

I'm inclined to believe that Charles did declare his love before he proposed, but (with what we know now) such huge reservations that what was coming out of the lips didn't match what was in the heart.

 

[Sandy345]

Charles I think sweet talked diana. That note he left her the evening before the marriage revealed that he wrote to her in an affectionate way and said he would be proud of her.

 

[Osipi]

For all we know, Charles did love Diana as in the back of his mind, he knew that Camilla, no matter how close they remained after her marriage to Andrew Parker-Bowles, put the kibosh on any hope of the two of them being united as a couple. She was a "lost cause" so to speak at the time. He may have felt that Diana was someone with whom he could share his life and the relationship would grow over time. Perhaps it was a time of burning bridges and forging a new path ahead. It didn't help that Charles was pressured that he *must* marry and provide the proverbial heir and a spare PDQ.

We see things looking at them from the outside without any kind of actual perception of what these two people saw and actually felt at the time. There are many pieces to this puzzle that have gone forever missing and the puzzle will never be completed in full.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. We just don't really know what their intentions really were at any given time.

 

[TLLK]

Osipi-I am inclined to agree with you that this relationship with Diana could grow over time. IMO Charles likely believed that like his maternal grandmother did with Bertie that love would grow even if he didn't feel quite so strongly towards Diana when he proposed. I tend to believe that Charles had affectionate feelings for Diana but it wasn't quite the same love that he had for someone else.

 

[Denville]

Osipi-I am inclined to agree with you that this relationship with Diana could grow over time. IMO Charles likely believed that like his maternal grandmother did with Bertie that love would grow even if he didn't feel quite so strongly towards Diana when he proposed. I tend to believe that Charles had affectionate feelings for Diana but it wasn't quite the same love that he had for someone else.

love is supposed to grow. The love one has at the beginning of a relationship is very different as time goes by...People fall madly in love and in middle life, often fall out of love because their lives have changed...Or the love you have after a couple of years marriage is different to the love at the beginning of a love affair...
And Charles believed that since his marriage had to last a strong friendship was of more value than romantic love. He loved Camilla, but he was attracted to Diana, and believed she was someone he cared for, who shared his values, knew about his lifestyle, and whom he would grow to love more deeply. He didn't realise that she didn't know much abuot the RF, and didn't really have the same interests as him.. and that within a fairly short time she would be disillusioned with the RF and royal life and be unhappy and resistant to trying to fit in.

 

[Osipi]

love is supposed to grow. The love one has at the beginning of a relationship is very different as time goes by...People fall madly in love and in middle life, often fall out of love because their lives have changed...Or the love you have after a couple of years marriage is different to the love at the beginning of a love affair...
And Charles believed that since his marriage had to last a strong friendship was of more value than romantic love. He loved Camilla, but he was attracted to Diana, and believed she was someone he cared for, who shared his values, knew about his lifestyle, and whom he would grow to love more deeply. He didn't realise that she didn't know much abuot the RF, and didn't really have the same interests as him.. and that within a fairly short time she would be disillusioned with the RF and royal life and be unhappy and resistant to trying to fit in.

I think we have a *BINGO* here. What was missing in the Charles and Diana relationship going into marriage was the "best friends" element. They didn't have that and really didn't have long enough to develop that kind of relationship. Charles did (it seems) to have that "best friends" kind of relationship with Amanda Knatchbull but, on her part, there were no "sparks" that and even perhaps on Charles' part. Perhaps it just seemed that marriage between the two of them was a "good idea" and honored "Uncle Dickie". I don't think either of them would have actually been happy together either but that opinion is only formed on what I know.

I can definitely relate to what you say, Denville, about love changing. Without a solid foundation to begin with, a relationship is empty and can't endure. Marriage takes work each and every day and even in those times of "I love you but I don't like you very much right now". A friend understands the difficult times and sticks by you no matter what but if a relationship is dependent only on being "in" love, the bloom falls off the rose easily and one gets disillusioned.

It also doesn't really surprise me that its been known that Charles and Diana's relationship actually did start to improve after their divorce and even reputed to be amicable at the time of Diana's death. Sometimes the best way to love someone is to let them go. This rings true with my first marriage and both my ex and I are now in happy and stable marriages. We made the right move to divorce. ?

 

[Denville]

I think we have a *BINGO* here. What was missing in the Charles and Diana relationship going into marriage was the "best friends" element. They didn't have that and really didn't have long enough to develop that kind of relationship. Charles did (it seems) to have that "best friends" kind of relationship with Amanda Knatchbull but, on her part, there were no "sparks" that and even perhaps on Charles' part. Perhaps it just seemed that marriage between the two of them was a "good idea" and honored "Uncle Dickie". I don't think either of them would have actually been happy together either but that opinion is only formed on what I know.

I can definitely relate to what you say, Denville, about love changing. Without a solid foundation to begin with, a relationship is empty and can't endure. Marriage takes work each and every day and even in those times of "I love you but I don't like you very much right now". A friend understands the difficult times and sticks by you no matter what but if a relationship is dependent only on being "in" love, the bloom falls off the rose easily and one gets disillusioned.

It also doesn't really surprise me that its been known that Charles and Diana's relationship actually did start to improve after their divorce and even reputed to be amicable at the time of Diana's death. Sometimes the best way to love someone is to let them go. This rings true with my first marriage and both my ex and I are now in happy and stable marriages. We made the right move to divorce. ?

I don't think their relationship was more than tolerable by the time of Di's death. I think she was still ambivalenat about Charles, but they tired to be friendly for the sake of the kids.

 

[Osipi]

I do think that Charles felt that he cared about Diana. Even after the divorce. This was shown to me as he went above and beyond what "duty" would require him to do when Diana died in Paris. He didn't have to go there with her sisters to return bring her home to the UK. He really was up front and personal all through that chaos and I do believe it was because he sincerely cared and wasn't putting on an "act". This endeared me to Charles even more. If it affected me this way, it most likely also affected his sons to see Dad feel like they did.

At the time when Diana died, I think she was still very much alone and looking to find something that would bring happiness. The sad thing is that she never found that before she died.

 

[Sandy345]

He was representing their sons or so I read. He could not possibly have walked behind Diana's coffin by himself he was there with others. Some said "what's he doing there." He was not her widower. ANd he was said to be the one instrumental in removing her HRH. Had William and Harry been of age I doubt he would have gone to Paris, they would have. I don't think he cared for Diana because Junor said he cooperated with her on various books like Charles Victim or Villain which derided Diana. ANd he was tactless enough to think it was appropriate to have Camilla attend her memorial service in 2007. Diana was not trusting of Charles toward the end but they were polite at events involving their children. If Charles really loved Diana he would never have cooperated with Junor.

 

[Nico]

He was representing their sons or so I read. He could not possibly have walked behind Diana's coffin by himself he was there with others. Some said "what's he doing there." He was not her widower. ANd he was said to be the one instrumental in removing her HRH. Had William and Harry been of age I doubt he would have gone to Paris, they would have. I don't think he cared for Diana because Junor said he cooperated with her on various books like Charles Victim or Villain which derided Diana. ANd he was tactless enough to think it was appropriate to have Camilla attend her memorial service in 2007. Diana was not trusting of Charles toward the end but they were polite at events involving their children. If Charles really loved Diana he would never have cooperated with Junor.

I just can't agree with that. This demonization of Charles is just appaling and just doesn't fit with the man himself.
He did go to Paris, he did bring back home the mother of his children. Why try to minimize that ? Why try to desperately find something remotely wrong with him even in the most dramatic moments ? I just don't understand sorry.
Don't you think that Charles hismelf and the BRF were not derided by many of Diana's actions, namely Squidgygate, the Morton book , the Panorama interview, the mutiple leakings to the Press ? Was she still madly in love with Charles when she was seeing other men ?

Charles was equally hurt by the fall of his marriage , by the actions of his then wife. It was a messy divorce, with a lot to blame from both parts. I do think he tried what he could to make amends with her after the separation. By early 1997 the relation was cordial and both were shown in public in good spirits. Then there was this project to reunite them on the "Britannia" for the Hong Kong handover. If it was not already there, peace was coming !

The 2007 Memorial service was all about that : peace. Peace of the soul of the late Princess of Wales, peace in the hearts of their sons and at last peace in the family. That's why the duchess of Cornwall was included. But some people just can't stomach the fact that life went on after august 1997.

Some people just chose to live with anger and bitterness, that's their privilege.

 

[Sandy345]

I'm just saying what happened at the time. And reactions. And emotions were strong after her death.

Diana had given up on Charles but she did try. He spurned her request for a reconciliation. Diana should not be demonized either. The blame I think is mostly on Charles because he new the score when he went into the marriage.

I think they both tried to make amends but I don't think they'd entirely trust each other. Even if they were estranged I think they would have been polite and would have worked on decisions that would be best for their children.

 

[TLLK]

I do think that Charles felt that he cared about Diana. Even after the divorce. This was shown to me as he went above and beyond what "duty" would require him to do when Diana died in Paris. He didn't have to go there with her sisters to return bring her home to the UK. He really was up front and personal all through that chaos and I do believe it was because he sincerely cared and wasn't putting on an "act". This endeared me to Charles even more. If it affected me this way, it most likely also affected his sons to see Dad feel like they did.

At the time when Diana died, I think she was still very much alone and looking to find something that would bring happiness. The sad thing is that she never found that before she died.

Perfectly stated Osipi. I agree with you that gesture was proof to me that Charles did care for his former wife and the mother of his sons.


I also agree that sadly Diana did seem to be trying to find happiness and purpose in her life and died before she had a chance to realize that dream.

 

[Sandy345]

Diana died young. She had a lot to offer. I don't think she and Charles entirely trusted each other, I think there would have always been some 'wariness' between the two.I do think both were doing very well honoring the terms of the custody of the children.

 

[Lee-Z]

I'm just saying what happened at the time. And reactions. And emotions were strong after her death.
.

But why still repeat the same thing when over 20 years have passed and in those years for many a more nuanced picture of the C&D relationship has replaced the very black and white view of things there once was...

Reality is never black and white, no matter how hard we want to believe it..

 

[Sandy345]

Some have changed outlook, others have not. I don't think the raw emotion during that time will ever be repeated, it was a very very unique event.

C and D relationship could never be a black and white view, there were a lot of gray areas.

 

[Betsypaige]

I think we have a *BINGO* here. What was missing in the Charles and Diana relationship going into marriage was the "best friends" element. They didn't have that and really didn't have long enough to develop that kind of relationship. Charles did (it seems) to have that "best friends" kind of relationship with Amanda Knatchbull but, on her part, there were no "sparks" that and even perhaps on Charles' part. Perhaps it just seemed that marriage between the two of them was a "good idea" and honored "Uncle Dickie". I don't think either of them would have actually been happy together either but that opinion is only formed on what I know.

I can definitely relate to what you say, Denville, about love changing. Without a solid foundation to begin with, a relationship is empty and can't endure. Marriage takes work each and every day and even in those times of "I love you but I don't like you very much right now". A friend understands the difficult times and sticks by you no matter what but if a relationship is dependent only on being "in" love, the bloom falls off the rose easily and one gets disillusioned.

It also doesn't really surprise me that its been known that Charles and Diana's relationship actually did start to improve after their divorce and even reputed to be amicable at the time of Diana's death. Sometimes the best way to love someone is to let them go. This rings true with my first marriage and both my ex and I are now in happy and stable marriages. We made the right move to divorce. ?

For all that Charles and Diana hurt each other, I believe there was a love there.....they weren’t suited for each other, and the age difference in this case was a gulf too far to bridge (this combo was unworkable). I only viewed their battles from afar, but it seems like to me that they both resented each other for not being able to give each other what the other needed. Hence, they either consciously or subconsciously sought to hurt each other. Once they decided to end the marriage, they could actually relate to each other as different people instead of partners...I think that made it easier. I DO think you’re right about them not having been friends first - that’s one problem with the idea of arranging marriages (even in just a basic way). Some boxes might be ticked, but you’re still dealing with human beings, not spreadsheets.

Charles was distraught when Diana was killed - not just because his sons lost their mummy, but because he did care for her. It’s a terrible thing that she didn’t have the chance to find the kind of happiness that he did.

 

[Denville]

For all that Charles and Diana hurt each other, I believe there was a love there.....they weren’t suited for each other, and the age difference in this case was a gulf too far to bridge (this combo was unworkable). I only viewed their battles from afar, but it seems like to me that they both resented each other for not being able to give each other what the other needed. Hence, they either consciously or subconsciously sought to hurt each other. Once they decided to end the marriage, they could actually relate to each other as different people instead of partners...I think that made it easier. I DO think you’re right about them not having been friends first - that’s one problem with the idea of arranging marriages (even in just a basic way). Some boxes might be ticked, but you’re still dealing with human beings, not spreadsheets.

Charles was distraught when Diana was killed - not just because his sons lost their mummy, but because he did care for her. It’s a terrible thing that she didn’t have the chance to find the kind of happiness that he did.

I don't think that things were that great after the divorce, that their relationship became all that friendly...
Perhaps given time it would have improved...one hopes that the bad feelings wold not have lasted 20 years but back then I think that Charles was just mainly relieved to be finished with the marriage.. and Diana was still resentful of the fact that the marriage had not worked.. even when she did have relationships with other men. I think she half wanted Charles back and wanted the marriage to work, but it would not have worked...
Charles OTOH was free of the marriage, he was relieved to be done with it, and he had Camilla. Diana was finding it harder to find another partner and she had lost her royal role.. so things were more difficult for her.
Im sure he was upset when she died, he would have to be inhuman not to feel something about the loss of a woman he had lived with and been close to and who had had his children.

 

[Osipi]

If there was one element of Charles and Diana's marriage that could be picked out and considered them having a strong and united front together, it was parenthood. They both totally agreed with how to raise their boys. They both were loving parents to their sons.

 

[Jacknch]

Several posts have been deleted or edited as they contained off-topic comments that go beyond what is relevant in the context of the topic. Let's not re-hash events surrounding Diana's death and let's keep Charles' relationship with Camilla out of the discussion please.

Further, try to avoid back and forth bickering and attempts to point-score / get the last word in - it's very obvious when this happens and is of no interest to other members reading the thread.

 

[TLLK]

If there was one element of Charles and Diana's marriage that could be picked out and considered them having a strong and united front together, it was parenthood. They both totally agreed with how to raise their boys. They both were loving parents to their sons.

Osipi I really appreciate how you are able to see the positive when it comes to this couple's often analyzed relationship. ?


I believe that after Diana's death that Charles did believe that it was best to stick to the plan that he and Diana created for their boys' education. IMO that tells me that the couple were in agreement on that topic.

 

[Sandy345]

Diana and CHarles would have put up a united front as parents in all the events in their sons lives had she lived. Sandhurst graduations and so on. They did come together for William's confirmation in `1997.