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  #2181  
Old 03-24-2017, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
You may be of age at 18 to twenty or so but that doesn't mean that you are worldly wise at that age or that you would make the same decisions at 40 or 30 that you made then. People do an awful lot of living between twenty and thirty and learn a great deal about others.
No matter what age a woman gets engaged and married and the age of her spouse, its a decision made that seems to be the right move to make at the time. Diana's expectations of what marriage should be like may have changed if she waited until near 30 to marry. Then again, it may not have. We don't know.

I married for the first time at 20 and the marriage lasted for 20 years. We grew apart. I married again at 45 and will celebrate 20 years of marriage this year and we're two comfortable old shoes. One difference I can easily point out between my two marriages is that my current one is being married to my best friend. Perhaps this is why so many things that have been reported about the Wales marriage indicate that both Charles and Diana had no real basis in close, intimate friendship before they got engaged and married and it was even billed as a "fairy tale" wedding. Romance is all fine and dandy with nights of wine and roses but without the basis of a solid friendship and compatibility, its hard to maintain a loving relationship. Other than being totally compatible in how they wanted to raise their boys, it started early on how each partner wanted their spouse to be and both of them fell short in the eyes of the other.

They both went into marriage believing that they could make the marriage work. They both tried. There were just too many differences and personality conflicts they couldn't resolve. Charles ended up with a second marriage that fits him like an old shoe like I did. Diana, unfortunately didn't live long enough to find that perfect fit. The blessing is that William took his time and married someone that started off as a good friendship and the relationship grew and I'm hoping it will be the same for Harry. Whatever Charles and Diana's differences were, the best of both of them are reflected in their sons.
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  #2182  
Old 03-24-2017, 04:21 PM
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Hmmm seems like I read he proposed to (I think this is her name) Anna 'Whiplash' Wallace?

I may have her name wrong...but I'm sure the 'whiplash' nickname is right.
I don't believe he proposed to Anna Wallace, she walked out on him in a temper one ngith because he sepnt a lot of time dacncing with Camilla..
and Charles harldy MADE Diana marry him. She wanted to.
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  #2183  
Old 03-24-2017, 04:25 PM
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I don't believe he proposed to Anna Wallace, she walked out on him in a temper one ngith because he sepnt a lot of time dacncing with Camilla..
and Charles harldy MADE Diana marry him. She wanted to.

Hmmm ok for some reason I thought he had proposed to Anna...but yeah I do remember the story about the party situation.

Who thinks Charles made Diana marry him? It was the 1980's not the 1500's.


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  #2184  
Old 03-24-2017, 04:27 PM
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No matter what age a woman gets engaged and married and the age of her spouse, its a decision made that seems to be the right move to make at the time. Diana's expectations of what marriage should be like may have changed if she waited until near 30 to marry. Then again, it may not have. We don't know.

"in their sons.
of course that's true. And there are couples that marry with a large age difference who last and couples who are very Young when they marry and the marriage lasts.
Diana HAD to be very young Because Charles needed to marry a girl with no past. so there was bound to be an age gap. But while that might cause problems it does not HAVE to do so. And there is no way that Diana would have waited for years to marry, she wanted to marry young and make a good marriage, botht in social terms and in terms, she hoped of a man who would always love her and could not get a divorce.
Chas and Cam are a good fit because they have a long history, they have common interests but also have the ability to be happy apart, pursuing their interests that are different,,,
Diana didn't get to that stage of maturity I think with any of her boyfriends, she was still hoping for "roses round the door" and romance and romance is very nice but it isn't the solid foundation for a marriage.
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  #2185  
Old 03-24-2017, 04:55 PM
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At least one of the books I've read said that he was close to proposing to her before the relationship ended. It could have been Sarah Bradford's or Tina Brown's, as I've reread them both recently.

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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Hmmm ok for some reason I thought he had proposed to Anna...but yeah I do remember the story about the party situation.

Who thinks Charles made Diana marry him? It was the 1980's not the 1500's.


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  #2186  
Old 03-24-2017, 05:02 PM
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Are you sure mermaid? Because I have Tina B and I think that she said that Anna was a mistress rather than a possible wife. She and Charles were almost caught " at it" in the heather on holiday, and there's a photo apparently - so I think if Charles saw her as his possible wife way back then, he would have been more careful...
and she was clearly a hot tempered girl who stormed out on him... so I am not sure if he would have considered her as a wife...

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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Hmmm ok for some reason I thought he had proposed to Anna...but yeah I do remember the story about the party situation.

Who thinks Charles made Diana marry him? It was the 1980's not the 1500's.


LaRae
I certainly don't. Good heavens how could he? Kidnap her and keep her in Balmoral till she said yes? She wanted to get married, he wanted to get married, they both made the decision. And as was usual back then, I think she was given time between the proposal and the news being announced, for her to go away (as I recall to Austraila) and to consider it before it was offically made public. If she had not wanted it, she could have said no, or "I've changed my mind."
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  #2187  
Old 03-24-2017, 05:22 PM
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Oh yes, I remember that story about the press finding them and Charles running off leaving Anna to fend for herself.

I have the idea that Anna was definitely considered a possible wife. However, we're getting off-topic here.

There was someone who posted here awhile ago that Diana was likely at that ball or the one earlier that summer during which Charles was kissing Camilla in front of her husband.



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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Are you sure mermaid? Because I have Tina B and I think that she said that Anna was a mistress rather than a possible wife. She and Charles were almost caught " at it" in the heather on holiday, and there's a photo apparently - so I think if Charles saw her as his possible wife way back then, he would have been more careful...
and she was clearly a hot tempered girl who stormed out on him... so I am not sure if he would have considered her as a wife...
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  #2188  
Old 03-24-2017, 05:25 PM
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I certainly don't. Good heavens how could he? Kidnap her and keep her in Balmoral till she said yes? She wanted to get married, he wanted to get married, they both made the decision. And as was usual back then, I think she was given time between the proposal and the news being announced, for her to go away (as I recall to Austraila) and to consider it before it was offically made public. If she had not wanted it, she could have said no, or "I've changed my mind."

Yeah she definately wanted to marry him...all sorts of reasons. He wanted (felt pressured) to marry someone, I think he figured she would work as well as anyone else that he could marry at that time. He hoped it would work out okay.

I do think after the engagement was announced it was pretty hard for her to feel like she could back out. Famously, when she raised the issue of not going thru with it, even her own family told her to buck up, too late to back out now since her face was on the tea towels.


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  #2189  
Old 03-24-2017, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Are you sure mermaid? Because I have Tina B and I think that she said that Anna was a mistress rather than a possible wife. She and Charles were almost caught " at it" in the heather on holiday, and there's a photo apparently - so I think if Charles saw her as his possible wife way back then, he would have been more careful...
and she was clearly a hot tempered girl who stormed out on him... so I am not sure if he would have considered her as a wife...
As amusing as this incident is, I think Charles and Diana take the blue ribbon prize for getting caught "at it". They were hot and heavy in their bedroom at Highgrove when Diana, without knowing it, accidentally hit the panic button with her foot. Imagine their surprise when RPOs burst in the room to find out what the trouble was.
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  #2190  
Old 03-24-2017, 06:55 PM
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wel not really the same. They were a married couple in their own home.

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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Oh yes, I remember that story about the press finding them and Charles running off leaving Anna to fend for herself.

I have the idea that Anna was definitely considered a possible wife. However, we're getting off-topic here.

There was someone who posted here awhile ago that Diana was likely at that ball or the one earlier that summer during which Charles was kissing Camilla in front of her husband.
I dont think that Charles would have been considering Anna as a wife, if he was so careless about her reputation. he and Diana were ultra careful that she was seen as a virginal young lady whom he was courting.
as for the last sentence, "Diana was likely at that dance?" We dont know. Even if she was, she might not have been around when Charles was kissing Camilla on the dance floor.
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  #2191  
Old 03-24-2017, 08:12 PM
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Diana wasn't at the ball. The evening occured before he started dating Diana. It was an end of polo season ball. However, Anna Wallace was there. This was the occasion at which she said to him 'No-one treats me like this! Not even you!' and she left.
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  #2192  
Old 03-24-2017, 09:01 PM
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Anna Wallace is who I was referring to as the woman Charles reportedly proposed to twice. I am also aware of the story that she ended things because of Charles being more attentive to Camilla at a party the attended. I reconciled things as Charles proposed Anna twice, Anna turned down the proposals but they continued dating until the party incident but I'm not really sure, the information is sketchy.
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  #2193  
Old 03-24-2017, 10:03 PM
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Anna Wallace was certainly beautiful: 1194079115.jpg Photo by helgerandi | Photobucket

Here is a news article that lists her as Charles' final girlfriend before Diana and states that there was a marriage proposal, though one wonders if that could be true given all the drama around a dance, etc. Doesn't sound serious to me (if the whole thing is true the way everyone reports the incident here).

I did read in one of Charles' biographies that regardless of what it looked like to outsiders (or how it was reported, or how it's 'spun') Charles was deeply hurt by the loss of Anna Wallace and the turn of events, which leads one to question exactly what was happening on the dance floor. The salacious nature of the 'reports' should not have caused Charles to question Anna's response, yet he seems to have so done, so what really happened there?

Anna Wallace: A might-have-been. So many of those. Charles seems to have gotten hitched to Diana on the re-bound. Not a good time in his life right about then.

LINK: Prince Charles and his relationships - Telegraph
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  #2194  
Old 03-25-2017, 06:04 AM
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Anna Wallace is who I was referring to as the . I reconciled things as Charles proposed Anna twice, Anna turned down the proposals but they continued dating until the party incident but I'm not really sure, the information is sketchy.
I've never heard of this. I think she was someone Charles had strong feelings for, but as I've said, I question if he would have been very obviously sleeping with her, if he saw her as marriage material. And if she was such a hot tempered lady I doubt if he would see her as Princess of Wales material. The only other woman that I've heard of C proposing to was Amanda Knatchbull and I think that that too might have been a "I have to get married, I know Amanda and she knows the RF's ways and what is required of a royal wife.." situation. Apparently she turned him down because she was not in love with him and she didn't want a public life.
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  #2195  
Old 03-25-2017, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
Anna Wallace is who I was referring to as the woman Charles reportedly proposed to twice. I am also aware of the story that she ended things because of Charles being more attentive to Camilla at a party the attended. I reconciled things as Charles proposed Anna twice, Anna turned down the proposals but they continued dating until the party incident but I'm not really sure, the information is sketchy.
'More attentive' is not how the evening has been discribed in multiple biographies. I am traveling today, but I will look up the quote when I get back to the US.
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  #2196  
Old 03-25-2017, 04:57 PM
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It's not nearly as simple as an affair.

People like to classify it as just an affair, but the dynamic between Andrew Parker Bowles, Camilla, and Charles was not an affair.

There is a longstanding tradition in the British upper classes of men and women marrying based on status, then having extramarital relations with individuals that they were actually attracted to - both men and women did this. There is also a longstanding tradition of Princes of Wales having mistresses who were married; this ensured that the mistress wasn't likely to expect to marry the PoW, provided a "father" for any children from the relationship, and reduced the scandal to the woman (she wasn't an unmarried woman sleeping with a man). The husbands provided a degree of cover for the wives within society, and typically benefited from their wives' status.

Also, reducing Camilla to the status of simply being Charles' friend's wife completely ignores that she had a friendship and sexual relationship with Charles that predated her marriage. Andrew wasn't a friend who's wife Charles was sleeping with, Andrew was the man who was married to the woman Charles had a relationship with.

Camilla's relationship with Charles and Andrew, through the 1970s and up to her divorce, could very likely be described as a Poly one, where in she was with Andrew as a "primary" partner, but with Charles as a "secondary" partner, that in time lead to Charles becoming the primary in what we assume is now a monogamous relationship.
Hey well, that whole 'long-standing tradition' got totally blown out of the water with the advent of the Diana and Charles saga! Not only were our perspectives on fairytale royal romance and happily-ever-after royal marriage changed forever, the British Royal family was rocked a hard one and almost ripped asunder. Thousands of years of royal tradition prevailed but with a vastly different outlook on royal marriage, divorce, crafting a successful public image, dealing with the press, inter-familial relationships, intimate cell phone conversations, how to prep and groom a royal bride, etc.

Of course Charles' relationship with Camilla became a long-standing 'affair,' which began as a youthful dalliance when they were both single. Over time, what started out as a flirtatious attraction grew into a deep and lasting bond of love and friendship. And let's not underestimate the power of Camilla's sexy, savvy, aggressive come-on personality mixed with maternal devotion. Charles did want to marry Camilla when they were both young and free, but her background with other men nixed her chances during that 1970s still old-fashioned outlook on what constituted a suitable royal bride. Charles was not confident and savvy enough to mount a campaign to get his way and wrangle a marriage with Camilla. She got tired of waiting and decided to marry her army officer, Andrew Parker-Bowles.

Charles went on to romance and date others but he never got over Camilla. Eventually he and Camilla reconciled and took up where they'd left off prior to her marriage. In the royal tradition, her husband made no objections. The sticky wicket later on is that Charles chose a young bride who was loathe to go along with these 'long-standing' upper-class and royal British traditions surrounding acceptance of royal husbands having affairs while the wife remained quiet, passive and long-suffering.

One of the problems was the huge difference in age between Charles and Diana, as well as their different interests. They were both needy and selfish romantics, vastly unsuited for each other. Another problem was the antiquated matchmaking notions of their respective maternal grandmothers. The biggest problem, of course, was Charles' deep, long-term love for another woman. Of course Diana had begun to have uneasy suspicions about Camilla well into the engagement, but her sisters had advised her that it was too late for her to back out of marrying. Diana did not become fully aware of the detrimental extent of Charles' emotional attachment to Camilla until the honeymoon cruise.

Fortunately, the one thing that Charles and Diana did manage to do well together was to conceive, cherish, love and nurture their two sons.

Diana, Princess of Wales paid a heavy price for her innocence and her fairytale outlook on love. On the other hand, her rebellious spirit as well as her deep love for her children and her caring for humanity helped change the royal family in many ways for the better.
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:01 PM
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The person who posted the story claimed that Diana was among the people who attended the ball. She wasn't there with Charles but was an invitee. There's no way of confirming the story by that poster unless someone else claims to have witnessed her there. That poster isn't posting here any longer.

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Diana wasn't at the ball. The evening occured before he started dating Diana. It was an end of polo season ball. However, Anna Wallace was there. This was the occasion at which she said to him 'No-one treats me like this! Not even you!' and she left.
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:02 PM
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Interesting that Diana has a similar look to Anna.


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Old 03-25-2017, 06:10 PM
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[QUOTEMaiaMia_53;1971004]One of the problems was the huge difference in age between Charles and Diana, as well as their different interests. They were both needy and selfish romantics, vastly unsuited for each other. Another problem was the antiquated matchmaking notions of their respective maternal grandmothers. The biggest problem, of course, was Charles' deep, long-term love for another woman. Of course Diana had begun to have uneasy suspicions about Camilla well into the engagement, but her sisters had advised her that it was too late for her to back out of marrying. Diana did not become fully aware of the detrimental extent of Charles' emotional attachment to Camilla until the honeymoon cruise.[/QUOTE]

There were many, many factors that just went against the grain when it came to the Wales' marriage but the bolded statement stood out for me.

So many times in the discussion of Charles and Diana and their marriage, I think too much focus has been on bed hopping and the "affair" angle such as in "cheating" and sexual relations outside of the marriage. Its very common to find in history that even in a marriage where the two partners loved and admired each other and were close, there was the "mistress" for carnal pleasures. No strings and no emotional attachments except for maybe in rare cases.

Its always been the norm to debate just when Charles stepped outside of the marriage. Was it in '86 as Charles claimed after the marriage had "broken down" or earlier? To me, that doesn't matter. Your statement MaiaMia hit the spot when you singled out "emotional attachment". I have stated several times that Diana perceived those that Charles was attached to as a threat because she lacked the "emotional attachment" to Charles herself. Charles held some people in his life very near and dear and over decades, those friendships and alliances grew and into becoming a part of him. They were his trusted "inner circle" and people he knew he could depend on in his uncertain world. That doesn't go away. It also doesn't mean that he couldn't have grown and after time, began to see Diana as one he could be emotionally close with on an intimate level. Diana just wasn't at an emotional level herself to begin to think along the lines of building something like that and her inner radar that perceived threats resulted in her actively building walls between Charles and the "inner circle" of his.

When things got to the point of being horribly wrong, its understandable that in such times, Charles would seek out the people that have always been there for him. He must really have been feeling emotionally isolated by that time and if and when he did "return" to Camilla, it wasn't for bed hopping. That is putting a basic physical attribute to any actions he may have taken. I truly believe that with Charles, it was the emotional intimacy that was the driving factor which often times does express itself in the physical.

Charles had intimate friendships he could return to. Diana was different. She really had no one to fall back on when things got bad and looked for it in a lot of places. Perhaps Burrell was the closest thing she could find but even with him, there were times she shut him out as with other friends when things didn't go according to her liking. It seemed like anyone she was remotely close to got "frozen out" at one time or another. She really did seem to want to be the have all and be all of someone else in her life and never did find that "emotional attachment" of the back and forth of giving and taking and the "no matter what" kind of intimate friendship with another person.

I'm no psychologist nor do I pretend to be but that one simple statement containing "emotional attachment" rang a bell with me.

Thank you MaiaMia. You really bring a lot of food for thought to the conversation.
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  #2200  
Old 03-25-2017, 06:38 PM
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well just to answer a few points there was no matchmaking with "their grandmothers".. they met socially, Diana was known to the RF, and to Charles and he asked her out. No one "Made a match" for them.
and I don't believe that Diana was so lacking in friends that she had to fall back on Burrell (and who knows how loyal many of C's friends would be if he weren't the Prince)
. however I don't think that her friends were the wisest people, in that some of them talked to Andrew Morton to cover her giving Morton the info to write Diana HTS.
Diana was in a difficult position, once she grew unhappy with the marriage and began to feel that the only thing to do was to take a lover or get out. I think that charle would have over looked a lover, but Hewitt wasn't a great choice and of course Diana as the "non royal" one, was taking a risk in taking a lover, unless she picked someone very very discreet.
and when she deicided to get out, I think her wiser friends and advisers who DID realise how much she woud be isolated if she split up with Charles, were frozen out because she was very unhappy and wanted to get out, and didn't want to listen to their advice
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