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  #2161  
Old 03-22-2017, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Nico View Post
But Charles WAS immature and easily influenced at 32 !
If he was man enough, If he has resisted, if he was a the real prince charming, if , if if, ...With these ifs, we put Paris in a bottle.
It was an arranged marriage. Period. Like thousand and thousands in history. It didn't work, well like thousand and thousands of marriages. He had an affair ? Big deal she had affairs too. He was aloof and distant ? She was demanding and self destructive. He was a victim, she was a victim and this marriage was a huge mess of biblical proportions. The best things in their marital life were their children and their divorce.
End of the story.
It's really time to get over it and try, oh just try, to move on after 35 years !

Can we just stop the hypocrisy and say the things as they are : Charles will be always some kind of a villain because he's alive and well , and, the horror, hapilly married. Diana had never the chance to find happiness. That's utterly sad but that's life !
Things are as they are, and studying this couple like a forensic autopsy will not change the past nor the future.
It wasn´t an arranged marriage. If it was, Diana would have told Andrew Morton or the spiritual coaches she had. Heck, she might even had told Hewitt at some point. What I am trying to say, is that Diana was quite the tell-all to people she trusted, especially in the period she was at her most vindicative.

They married out of love, but because they didn´t knew each other well it quickly fell apart. Staff, family and friends taking sides and leaking stories or helping cover up didn´t help them both. It defintely rasied the anxiety and paranoia in Diana. And that she felt out of place with his smart friends didn´t help her insecurity either.
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  #2162  
Old 03-22-2017, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
The majority of people, when they first start dating, bounce ideas about films, literature, art, etc off each other. With works such as Jung most people interested in the subject who believed their girlfriend was too, would ask 'Hey, what do you think of this particular point...?'

If the questioner gets a wide-eyed response and no coherent answer after the first couple of times, I think they would come to the conclusion that the young woman they were asking the question of, wasn't really interested, (however adoringly goo-goo-eyed they looked) especially if there hadn't been a 'My goodness, that's intriguing. May I borrow that book, if you you don't mind?'

Unless of course the particular person concerned with Jung and false prophet van der Post enjoyed the sound of his own voice droning on and on, without any sort of meaningful response from his listener.
This was her husband for goodness sakes. She had already affirmed her interest and admiration while dating (pre-engagement). She was in love (so you say). I'd be enthralled (if I were in love). Something doesn't add up with the story. Don't you see that? There's some fibbing going on, and it's not Charles.

You make Charles' overtures sound unappealing, like spoilt meat, like Charles is some impossibly old codger, with the same derisive tone Diana took years later, essentially laughing at him (in her ignorance), and getting others to do the same (who knew no better). It's unkind. Plain and simple. Don't you see that?

The scale of immaturity and cruelty Diana was displaying towards her new husband is appalling imo.
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  #2163  
Old 03-22-2017, 05:51 AM
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I was talking about the courtship period; as I said in the first paragraph of my above post, when people first (note I said first,) date, they throw likes and dislikes, opinions on film, books, literature into the air between each other, noting what the other likes and dislikes.

We don't know whether Charles read Jung or van der Post to Diana when they were first dating. However, as I noted, most people who like and are attracted to each other talk about favourite topics.

If they are taking note of the other person's reactions to what they are speaking about and there's no answering spark, no desire to discuss the subject in question from that person, they then move on. There may be disappointment but most people can accept when another is not interested in a favourite movie, book, intellectual pastime etc.

If Diana had been interested then she would have borrowed books from him and others, made notes on what interested her about them and discussed various aspects of the books with him.

Again, this is the pre-engagement period we are talking about.

As we take it that she didn't do so, (and I've never read otherwise,) then I should think Charles would have known within the first couple of weeks of dating that this girl did not share his intellectual interests, however prettily she smiled at him while he talked on them.

If all that Charles got from Diana when he talked deeply of philosophy and psychology were wide-eyed, if admiring looks but no questions, no borrowing of books, no intellectual sparks, I would have thought that a person with any common sense would have said to themselves 'This girl is just being polite. She is not absorbed by what I'm saying. Therefore, she does not share my interests in philiosophy, psychology, Jung etc'

As I have said, and I'll repeat it, this would be in the 'getting to know you period' before the engagement and certainly before marriage.

As for your other points, Diana wasn't the only unkind person who derided and put down their spouse in that marriage.
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  #2164  
Old 03-22-2017, 06:08 AM
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We know that Diana told him she liked the outdoorsy life at Balmoral so why assume she didn't ask questions and borrow books on these topics? We know she was an accomplished liar but that is excused due to her age - why?

Why put the blame on Charles and assume that she made no comments when Charles is no idiot. Diana may very well have asked questions and borrowed books - which she wouldn't have read - we know she was given books to read to help her with her duties which she refused to read so it is possible she borrowed books and then put them away having kept her eyes on her prize - Charles the future King (not Charles the man but Charles the position - that is what she wanted).
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  #2165  
Old 03-22-2017, 06:32 AM
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My goodness this just goes on and on the number of posts about Diana saying she liked the outdoors etc must be enormous and usually the same people then say we should move on. How can people that don't like her continue to talk about her.
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  #2166  
Old 03-22-2017, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
My goodness this just goes on and on the number of posts about Diana saying she liked the outdoors etc must be enormous and usually the same people then say we should move on. How can people that don't like her continue to talk about her.
good point, but how can people that don't like him continue to talk about him?
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  #2167  
Old 03-22-2017, 08:29 AM
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Yes, I know Royal Rob!

You would have noticed Iluvbertie, that in my post I stated that if she was interested in Jung etc she would have borrowed books, AND 'made notes on what interested her about them AND discussed various aspects with him.' I'm aware that she might have borrowed books and pretended to read them.

However, if she wasn't interested and hadn't read them, then my former observations are still pertinent. If Charles lent the books then he would have expected a response after she returned them. When he didn't get any then there was his answer. Diana wasn't interested.

I do not believe that Diana wasn't in love with Charles when they dated and then married. The position was not all important to her although it of course came in the equation. I realise you do not believe that, Iluvbertie. However, everything I've read in biographies etc point to her being in love.

However, you have stated in a former post that Diana was 'infatuated' with Charles. On his part however, Charles wasn't even that.
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  #2168  
Old 03-22-2017, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post
good point, but how can people that don't like him continue to talk about him?
Touché !
Precisely because he's alive and she's not, and it's still unbearable apparently.
So some self-proclaimed legend keeper try to defend her memory, with mitigated success. I don't think her memory need to be defended. It's still vivid for her sons, with love and dignity.
Still some are desperate to find THE culprit in this sad story, because they need one to find some kind of meaning for her loss.
The thread has 109 pages and this discussion is defenitively a never ending story.
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  #2169  
Old 03-22-2017, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
The majority of people, when they first start dating, bounce ideas about films, literature, art, etc off each other. With works such as Jung most people interested in the subject who believed their girlfriend was too, would ask 'Hey, what do you think of this particular point...?'

If the questioner gets a wide-eyed response and no coherent answer after the first couple of times, I think they would come to the conclusion that the young woman they were asking the question of, wasn't really interested, (however adoringly goo-goo-eyed they looked) especially if there hadn't been a 'My goodness, that's intriguing. May I borrow that book, if you you don't mind?'

.
well to be fair to Charles, he may be used to people pretending to share his interests because of who he is.. so he doesn't get clues that Dian was just being polite,. And I think she was probably enthusiastic and indicated that she'd love to know more about Jung or whatever, but she wasn't nearly clever enough to understanad it etc etc and he thought that yes she doesn't know about this stuff and she's very young but she' is keen to learn. Just as she seemed to enjoy watching him shooting and fishing. And he thought "when we have more time to spend together, I can teach her"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico View Post
Touché !
Precisely because he's alive and she's not, and it's still unbearable apparently.
So some self-proclaimed legend keeper try to defend her memory, with mitigated success. I don't think her memory need to be defended. It's still vivid for her sons, with love and dignity.
Still some are desperate to find THE culprit in this sad story, because they need one to find some kind of meaning for her loss.
The thread has 109 pages and this discussion is defenitively a never ending story.
there Isn't a culprit, so while I don't mind discussing the marriage, I think it si silly to try an apportion blame. they were both foolish and selfish, they were boht at fault, but it was an unfortunate disaster that happened because of several factors, such as Diana being a lonely fragile girl who longed for loving and also socially splendid marriage and Charles being a rather shy awkward man who was very restricted In whom he cold marry. But it wasn't an arranged marriage. There were factors such as Charles having to marry within the Upper class, and to marry a girl with no past which meant that he was likely to settle for a girl that he didn't have much in common with, but I beleive he was fond of her and a bit in love with her. and she was certainly in love iwht him. Had she not been she would have accepted his affair with Camilla.
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  #2170  
Old 03-23-2017, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
However, you have stated in a former post that Diana was 'infatuated' with Charles. On his part however, Charles wasn't even that.
Oh yes he was, he was absolutely besotted with his lovely and 'shy' wife. There was the gentle hand behind the her back, nipping over to bring her to meet someone (a nobody) who didn't want to be disappointed and he handled her like the finest crystal.

It is obvious that that did not last for either of them and I prefer to believe Charles statement that he was not unfaithful to her until after their marriage had irretrievably broken down, "both having tried".

That they grew apart rather than together was sad, but not a tragedy. I personally do not believe the age difference had much to do with it, rather a difference of personality and interests. That Charles was impatient with Diana and some of her friends as well as Sarah (poking people with umbrella's at Ascot) was hardly surprising as was her well documented loathing for any of his old friends of any age or sex.
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  #2171  
Old 03-23-2017, 10:55 PM
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There isn't a culprit, so while I don't mind discussing the marriage, I think it is silly to try to apportion blame. They were both foolish and selfish, they were both at fault
But not to the same degree, and that's a valid pov. Trying to equate Charles' faults with Diana's doesn't parse in my view. Vastly different universes.

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but it was an unfortunate disaster that happened because of several factors, such as Diana being a lonely fragile girl
A girl? When does 'a girl' transition to being 'a woman', an adult, who is making her own decisions - at 14? 18? 19/20? Are 20 year olds 'girls'?

But again, this image created of a waif blown on the wind......

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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
who longed for loving and also socially splendid marriage
Yes, keeping herself 'tidy'.

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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
and Charles being a rather shy awkward man
I would disagree with the image given here. He was far from a social cripple. He was an experienced man, with a large, impressive circle of friends and string of lovers/girlfriends. He had already begun his Prince's Trust. He was not the callow, 'awkward' youth he was at his Investiture.

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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
who was very restricted in whom he could marry. But it wasn't an arranged marriage.
Sure looked like it from the outside. The very restrictions necessitated that it was 'arranged'. He was going through an accepted 'pool' of women. Diana's number had come up. She caught his eye, was able to sustain his interest, and it went from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
There were factors such as Charles having to marry within the Upper class, and to marry a girl with no past which meant that he was likely to settle for a girl that he didn't have much in common with, but I beleive he was fond of her and a bit in love with her, and she was certainly in love with him. Had she not been she would have accepted his affair with Camilla.
I question that (not the love, just the conclusion). I think Diana's possessiveness was a function of control, not love. Recall that she made the biggest 'public' scenes about Camilla (for an example) while she was in the thick of a years long affair with James Hewitt. A bit strange to maintain proprietary rights over Charles when she was herself in deep with her own lover.
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  #2172  
Old 03-23-2017, 11:10 PM
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So exactly when do you think a female child becomes a woman? 14? 18? 19? 20? As the mother of a 14, nearly 15 year old female child, I would lock her in a room before I allowed her to marry a man so many years her senior at barely 20. Particularly to one with the history of having quite a number of extramarital affairs (the 'ladies' were married) with the wives of his friends, which were not exactly a secret. It certainly did not bode well for his views on marital fidelity, did it?
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  #2173  
Old 03-24-2017, 12:32 AM
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Legally a girl becomes a woman at 18 but the legal age for marriage is 16 in the UK with parental consent (don't need that in Scotland).

Locking them in their room at that age would be regarded as 'false imprisonment' and is a gaolable offence in most countries (including yours of the US).

Young people are fully aware of their legal rights at much younger ages than in the past - largely because teachers are instructed to make sure that they are taught them.

Diana was an adult and made an adult decision at 19. She was over the legal age of consent (16) and of marriage (18). There was nothing her parents could do to stop the marriage (sure her father 'gave consent' to Charles when he was asked but even if he had said 'no' there was really nothing he could do to stop the marriage).

Diana did know about his relationships - one of which was with one of her own older sisters. She mixed in the same type of circles where his love life was dissected in even greater detail that was being done in the media.

She knew what she was getting into - knew the rules of the situation - but decided marriage to Charles was preferable to whatever else was going on in her life.

She was no 'shrinking violet' even if she was still 'intact'.
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  #2174  
Old 03-24-2017, 01:50 AM
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You may be of age at 18 to twenty or so but that doesn't mean that you are worldly wise at that age or that you would make the same decisions at 40 or 30 that you made then. People do an awful lot of living between twenty and thirty and learn a great deal about others.

It's debatable how much of the ins and outs Diana knew about Sarah and Charles's relationship anyway. She was at school then, for a brief time, at finishing school in Switzerland.
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  #2175  
Old 03-24-2017, 02:42 AM
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Charles and Diana

A teenage couple getting married is one thing ( not that I think that's at all sensible ) but a teenager becoming engaged to an 30 something who has a full on past is very different. It's all about the power in the relationship regardless of who it is.
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  #2176  
Old 03-24-2017, 05:12 AM
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What power did Charles exert to get Diana to marry him? He proposed and she said yes. He told her to think it over while she was in Australia visiting her mother and she responded that she did not need to, on top of that Diana later revealed that Charles made a "whatever 'in love' means" type comment when he proposed.

The engagement was not announced until after Diana returned from Australia which gave Diana ample time to think things over and those closest to Diana a chance to weigh in on what she was getting herself into for her to take under advisement. I doubt if Charles would have used his "power" to make Diana stay engaged to him.

Furthermore Charles' proposal to Diana was his fourth time proposing marriage, he proposed to two other women before Diana, one of whom he proposed to twice, and all three proposals were rejected. I don't recall there being pressure put upon or retribution towards the women who rejected Charles.
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  #2177  
Old 03-24-2017, 06:17 AM
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I have heard that he proposed to Amanda Knatchbull - never been confirmed as far as I am aware. To whom else is it rumoured he proposed?
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  #2178  
Old 03-24-2017, 06:24 AM
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Of course he didn't make her marry him. The power within a relationship if lopsided isn't heathy and can be a form of abuse. This man was older more experienced and a future king. It was a very lopsided marriage and as it turns very unhealthy
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  #2179  
Old 03-24-2017, 08:43 AM
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I have heard that he proposed to Amanda Knatchbull - never been confirmed as far as I am aware. To whom else is it rumoured he proposed?
I am wondering that, too. And who did he ask twice?
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  #2180  
Old 03-24-2017, 09:00 AM
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Hmmm seems like I read he proposed to (I think this is her name) Anna 'Whiplash' Wallace?

I may have her name wrong...but I'm sure the 'whiplash' nickname is right.
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