Charles and Diana

[Denville]

Wasn't that photo taken on the occasion Diana spoke about years later, the one where Camilla took her out to lunch and, according to Diana, started pumping her about whether she would be going hunting after her marriage, the same hunt Charles and Camilla had ridden with for years? Diana never mentioned any other luncheon or dinner dates with Camilla as far as I remember.

Diana stayed several weekends wht the Parker Bowles..

 

[Nico]

Wasn't that photo taken on the occasion Diana spoke about years later, the one where Camilla took her out to lunch and, according to Diana, started pumping her about whether she would be going hunting after her marriage, the same hunt Charles and Camilla had ridden with for years? Diana never mentioned any other luncheon or dinner dates with Camilla as far as I remember.

"according to Diana"
All is said ...

 

[Denville]

"according to Diana"
All is said ...

what does that mean?

 

[Nico]

what does that mean?

That only one side of the story is rehearsed again and again, and that the late Princess of Wales was known to manipulate some facts to her advantage.
We basically don't know what happened and what was said, and i guess we never will ...

 

[Curryong]

Diana stayed several weekends wht the Parker Bowles..

Yes, I know she did, but the Parker Bowles lived out in the countryside quite near Highgrove, whereas that photo (the people, background) looks as if it was taken at a fairly public occasion somewhere in or around a town or city. Camilla invited her to lunch at a London restaurant when they are believed to have had that conversation.

Later. Have tracked this photo down. It was taken in October 1980 at the Ludlow Racecourse where the two women went to see Charles riding in an amateur steeplechase. He finished second. Apparently there are only three photos on file of Camilla and Diana together and this was one of them.

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertai...rincess-diana-and-camilla-parker-bowles.html/

 

[Denville]

Yes, I know she did, but the Parker Bowles lived out in the countryside quite near Highgrove, whereas that photo (the people, background) looks as if it was taken at a fairly public occasion somewhere in or around a town or city. Camilla invited her to lunch at a London restaurant when they are believed to have had that conversation.



https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertai...rincess-diana-and-camilla-parker-bowles.html/

I meant that she must have had other conversations with Camilla and gotten to know her a bit before she got engaged. If Camilla was her hostess, for some weekends, presumably they chatted a bit...

 

[Curryong]

No doubt they were cordial and polite with each other as far as it went. However, there was a large age gap and no shared hobbies or interests except for Charles. No meeting of hearts and minds.

Diana remembered later that Camilla seemed to know a lot about Charles's plans and would say things like 'He's always enjoyed going to so and so' or 'He doesn't like this...' showing that she knew Charles very very well indeed in every way, as we all later found out.

And Diana wasn't at the Parker Bowles' that often. With the engagement she moved to BP.

 

[Denville]

No doubt they were cordial and polite with each other as far as it went. However, there was a large age gap and no shared hobbies or interests except for Charles. No meeting of hearts and minds.

Diana remembered later that Camilla seemed to know a lot about Charles's plans and would say things like 'He's always enjoyed going to so and so' or 'He doesn't like this...' showing that she knew Charles very very well indeed in every way, as we all later found out.

And Diana wasn't at the Parker Bowles' that often. With the engagement she moved to BP.

I said that during the courtship, she visited Highgrove some weekends, from what I understand and she stayed at the PBs home. obviously after the engagement, Diana moved into a royal home...

 

[Osipi]

Its not uncommon when someone (Charles) is thinking of marriage, he'd want for his bride-to-be to get to know his circle of friends. He was, at that time, very close to the entire Parker-Bowles family and not just Camilla. He is their oldest son's godfather. Its been stated in several sources that Diana never did mesh in with Charles' circle of friends and eventually, after the marriage, got him to cut ties with them.

With the age difference of most of Charles' friends from Diana's, its not surprising that there were no common points of interest. Being 19 at the time of courtship, she must have found the "older" set of friends boring and 'countrified" and a sit down dinner or a hunting weekend droll instead of a lively night out dancing in a London club.

There we so many clues before the wedding that these two people were not suited to each other at all and looked perfect on paper but the reality was totally different. Wish they had seen that.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Its not uncommon when someone (Charles) is thinking of marriage, he'd want for his bride-to-be to get to know his circle of friends. He was, at that time, very close to the entire Parker-Bowles family and not just Camilla. He is their oldest son's godfather. Its been stated in several sources that Diana never did mesh in with Charles' circle of friends and eventually, after the marriage, got him to cut ties with them.

With the age difference of most of Charles' friends from Diana's, its not surprising that there were no common points of interest. Being 19 at the time of courtship, she must have found the "older" set of friends boring and 'countrified" and a sit down dinner or a hunting weekend droll instead of a lively night out dancing in a London club.

There we so many clues before the wedding that these two people were not suited to each other at all and looked perfect on paper but the reality was totally different. Wish they had seen that.

But who would have thought that such a decent Sloane Ranger, daughter from an Earl with a countryside ancestral estate, would be more 'into' clubbing than wading with wellies to Scottish moorlands? Her sisters Lady Jane and Lady Sarah seem exactly the traditional countryside type while Lady Diana somewhere developed from an aristocrat kindergarten missus with a little car into a star-socialite determined to rule the front pages. That was an evolution no one expected from a Princess of Wales. See Catherine, whom is not at all prone to be the Tabloids' Prom Queen. A total opposite of the late Diana.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, I agree Osipi, there were few interests to bind Diana to Charles's circle. Several of his friends, such as Van der Post were over fifty years her senior.

I don't know that Diana ever went out dancing at clubs during the years she lived with friends in her little flat. Spaghetti suppers and evenings at the cinema seem to have been their main amusements! I never read of her drinking at clubs or being out all night at them.

(Nor was Diana a socialite in her later years. She wasn't prone to appearing at the opening of an envelope or partying, and many of the evening functions she appeared at were for charity.)

However, many of Charles's friends had known each other for years if not decades and were part of the polo and hunting sets together. I think it was quite natural that Diana never felt entirely comfortable in their company.

Also, and I've said this before, Charles seems to have made no effort at all to get to know his future bride's circle of friends or many of her relatives. (Diana's siblings btw were not part of the polo or hunting crowd.)

I think it's rather unfair for everything to be one-sided, with one of a couple expected to mesh in with a circle and way of life while the other partner makes no effort in the opposite direction.

 

[Sandy345]

Diana was from another generation and was not in Charles circle until she started dating him. She did take on part time jobs during the time she lived in the London flat.

 

[Curryong]

Hello Sandy and welcome! No, Diana wasn't in Charles's circle until they dated, though she had met him when he was going out with her sister Sarah. And yes, she did have several jobs befor marrying.

 

[Sandy345]

Thank you! Diana had enjoyed her time in London before she got engaged.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, in a way I think the time between leaving school and becoming engaged was the happiest in Diana's life. She could relax and be herself with her friends and they could go out and about enjoying themselves in the evenings and weekends. Certainly she was never as carefree again.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

When Charles first dated Diana, how well did he get along with her brother Charles, Viscount Althorp?

 

[Osipi]

I don't think Diana's brother, Charles, was in the picture very much during the dating and courtship period. As he was three years younger than Diana, he most likely was busy with his education during this period.

 

[Pranter]

There we so many clues before the wedding that these two people were not suited to each other at all and looked perfect on paper but the reality was totally different. Wish they had seen that.

But they DID see it. However they both felt (Diana said it and it's been said Charles felt the same) this AFTER the engagement was announced ergo unable to back out...which they should of done.


As to comments about Diana being more interested in clubbing etc....I don't think so. She wasn't known to be a party girl prior to her marriage and she grew up in the country with her furry friends. This idea she hated the country is simply not true. What she 'hated' was having to deal with Charles (and his family) in a location where she could not get away, felt restricted...she was not a rider so not into country pursuits like foxhunting/hunting (Charles was big into that for decades) and that would of largely been who was involved with the country set Charles ran with. Polo probably wasn't a big draw for her either.

I think she did enjoy walking around the countryside and being outside in nature itself...being around animals too.



LaRae

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

But they DID see it. However they both felt (Diana said it and it's been said Charles felt the same) this AFTER the engagement was announced ergo unable to back out...which they should of done.


As to comments about Diana being more interested in clubbing etc....I don't think so. She wasn't known to be a party girl prior to her marriage and she grew up in the country with her furry friends. This idea she hated the country is simply not true. What she 'hated' was having to deal with Charles (and his family) in a location where she could not get away, felt restricted...she was not a rider so not into country pursuits like foxhunting/hunting (Charles was big into that for decades) and that would of largely been who was involved with the country set Charles ran with. Polo probably wasn't a big draw for her either.

I think she did enjoy walking around the countryside and being outside in nature itself...being around animals too.



LaRae

But that was exactly what anyone expected. A Princess of Wales loving walking the New Forest or the Lake District. But in later years we saw a Diana developing into another stratosphere with the Gianni Versaces, the Elton Johns, the George Michaels, she became a stae bigger than any star herself and she enjoyed it until the loss of her royal status, when she became a vulnerable prey for the tabloids.

We see with Catherine, who seems not prone for stardom at all, that it could have been different, was Diana more the traditional tweed-wearing, waxed coat, wellies type of spouse.

 

[Curryong]

They didn't have anything in common and there was a twelve year gap in their ages, made more glaring by the fact that Charles was an old 32 and she was a quite young 19/20 year old.

I agree with Pranter that the things Diana liked about the countryside weren't necessarily what Charles enjoyed about it. She didn't fish, or ride following an accident in childhood. And before Catherine gets brought into this again, she doesn't ride or fish either. One of the main differences with the two couples is that the Cambridges are the same age and have things in common.

Diana's circle of friends was very different to Charles's, who were in some cases miles older than he was. Charles made no attempt to enter into the 20 year old Diana's world and the things she enjoyed, which incidentally were often what most people of her generation liked. She was for instance a keen dancer and follower of ballet. She enjoyed modern music and liked swimming, water sports and tennis. That huge lack of shared interests wasn't going to be fixed up by wellies and wax jackets.

 

[Denville]

They didn't have anything in common and there was a twelve year gap in their ages, made more glaring by the fact that Charles was an old 32 and she was a quite young 19/20 year old.

I agree with Pranter that the things Diana liked about the countryside weren't necessarily what Charles enjoyed about it. She didn't fish, or ride following an accident in childhood. And before Catherine gets brought into this again, she doesn't ride or fish either. One of the main differences with the two couples is that the Cambridges are the same age and have things in common.

Ds.

I don't think Diana liked the countryside at all. She was a town girl. She wasn't into a lot of partying and the like but she liked to be in a town with entertainment and friends close by.. She didn't enjoy nature wlaks or gardening or any country sports... she liked the gym and tennis and dancing. Charles wasn't into those. She didn't share his mental interests either. Kate may not like riding or shooting but she does share sporty interests with William..and I think she's Ok with living in the country or the town. they are the same age, and presumably have a similar outlook on life, whereas Charles and Diana didn't. He was a romantic conservative. Diana had no particular "ideas" but she tended towards a more modern outlook... Charles liked people who were older than him, Diana didn't.

 

[Elan]

She did travel during one winter to visit Kurt Russell's Colorado ranch with her sons, though he was not home at the time. Perhaps she liked the 'idea' of being in the country so long as it was a respite, not actually living in such a place. 'Rocky Mountain High' was a song she was said to love. Maybe the tune inspired her to experience the Rockies..?

A great tune certainly, but very different from someone facing apex predators in a mountain range.

 

[Denville]

She did travel during one winter to visit Kurt Russell's Colorado ranch with her sons, though he was not home at the time. Perhaps she liked the 'idea' of being in the country so long as it was a respite, not actually living in such a place. 'Rocky Mountain High' was a song she was said to love. Maybe the tune inspired her to experience the Rockies..?

A great tune certainly, but very different from someone facing apex predators in a mountain range.

I dotn think she was that crazy about it, in itself but it was a private holiday for her with the boys, where they could enjoy outdoor pursuits and she enjoyed beign with them and seeing htem having fun. Of course she would not want to live full time on a ranch in the USA and be married to a working rancher.. or to to be full time farmer's wife in England.

 

[Osipi]

She did travel during one winter to visit Kurt Russell's Colorado ranch with her sons, though he was not home at the time. Perhaps she liked the 'idea' of being in the country so long as it was a respite, not actually living in such a place. 'Rocky Mountain High' was a song she was said to love. Maybe the tune inspired her to experience the Rockies..?

A great tune certainly, but very different from someone facing apex predators in a mountain range.

OMG! A blast from the past that brings to mind an exact same scenario that I, myself, went through. I loved John Denver. I loved "Country Roads" so much I wore the vinyl out. At the time I was living in the suburbs of Detroit. Years later, I did relocate to the *only* area of West Virginia that Denver sang about in that song and it was a major adjustment in lifestyle from being a city girl and then a "mountain mama". I still blame Denver and then thank him.

I think that if Diana and Charles had more of an intimate connection mentally and enjoyed the same set of friends and interests, Diana would have been content with Charles anywhere they lived. Its not the physical location so much as the people around one that make life enjoyable and, lets face it, after marriage, Charles and Diana did not enjoy being with each other very much as time passed. I do have to think that for the most part, Diana was expected to move and fit into Charles' world far, far more than he ever attempted to move into and fit into Diana's.

It seemed to me that for Charles, after marriage, his life didn't change at all. Same duties and responsibilities and work, same friends, same downtime pursuits as he'd always done. Only difference was that there was a wife at home that felt excluded. This is one area where I can totally identify with Diana and her unhappiness. Like me, I bet if Diana had lived and found the love of her life that she totally meshed with, she'd be happy with him whether it be in a high rise condo in London or a sheep farm in the Australian outback.

 

[Denville]

OMG! A blast from the past that brings to mind an exact same scenario that I, myself, went through. I loved John Denver. I loved "Country Roads" so much I wore the vinyl out. At the time I was living in the suburbs of Detroit. Years later, I did relocate to the *only* area of West Virginia that Denver sang about in that song and it was a major adjustment in lifestyle from being a city girl and then a "mountain mama". I still blame Denver and then thank him.

I think that if Diana and Charles had more of an intimate connection mentally and enjoyed the same set of friends and interests, Diana would have been content with Charles anywhere they lived. Its not the physical location so much as the people around one that make life enjoyable and, lets face it, after marriage, Charles and Diana did not enjoy being with each other very much as time passed. I do have to think that for the most part, Diana was expected to move and fit into Charles' world far, far more than he ever attempted to move into and fit into Diana's.

It seemed to me that for Charles, after marriage, his life didn't change at all. Same duties and responsibilities and work, same friends, same downtime pursuits as he'd always done. Only difference was that there was a wife at home that felt excluded. This is one area where I can totally identify with Diana and her unhappiness. Like me, I bet if Diana had lived and found the love of her life that she totally meshed with, she'd be happy with him whether it be in a high rise condo in London or a sheep farm in the Australian outback.

of course Diana was expected to fit in with C's world rather than the other way around. its a given that if you marry a senior royal, especially back in 1980, the partner usually has to give up a good deal of his or her independence, and to fit in with the Royals way of life. Esp if it is a woman marrying a male royal. A man marrying a princess has a bit of room...
And no I don't think that diana would have been happy "anywhere" just because fo the love of her life was there with her. I think most people will struggle a bit at least if by marriage they find themselves in a country they don't like, or marrying into a family where they don't share the culture, outlook etc. If they are adaptable, sometimes love will help them to live with it..and to put up iwht the various frustrations.. but it wont cure everything..

And Diana was a highly strung woman, and easily stressed. She did her best to adapt but it was struggling against her natural grain.. and she could not go on doing it. She did a good job taking on the royal role in public, but in private, she was bulimic, and unhappy and Charles had too liltte in common with her to help her.. plus he was busy and I think he soon gave up trying ….
Diana when she was in love with Khan, I think tried to convince herself that if she had him wth her, she would settle in Pakistan, but in her heart she knew she would not really be able to adapt to life there.

 

[Curryong]

So it was quite OK for Charles as a husband to behave virtually as a married bachelor, giving nothing, remaining inflexible, still with his circle of friends, his lifestyle in private, his hobbies and interests intact and primary?

It is fine then to not take an interest in any hobbies of his young wife, to not interact with friends of Diana's before her marriage, not host any dinner parties or evenings for them, just behave as he had all his adult life, with himself as the sun around which all the satellites spun? What a fine modern outlook on married life!

 

[Nico]

So it was quite OK for Charles as a husband to behave virtually as a married bachelor, giving nothing, remaining inflexible, still with his circle of friends, his lifestyle in private, his hobbies and interests intact and primary?

It is fine then to not take an interest in any hobbies of his young wife, to not interact with friends of Diana's before her marriage, not host any dinner parties or evenings for them, just behave as he had all his adult life, with himself as the sun around which all the satellites spun? What a fine modern outlook on married life!

Some are looking at this story with rose tinted 2020 eyes, but for 1980 in the upper crust of the British society it was the norm : a well born young girl was expected to act accordinaly to her rank, especially if she had to marry the Prince of Wales. And the Prince of Wales was not expected to disgrace himself into some mundane activies to try to please a spouse basically chosen for him.

Sounds bordeline medieval but that's what it was. Nothing more, nothing less. And it didn't work. This kind of arrangement, who made wonders during centuries, proved to be unsuitable for our modern times.

The couple formed by Charles and Diana was probably the last of its kind. It was a spectacular failure and, thankfully, the BRF learned from it.

It's so millennial to try to desperately find some culprits , to blame the system, to victimize individuals, and , too often, to easily forget the context. Charles and Diana acted like they were expected to act, in accordance to their rank and the world they were raised. A bygone world by many aspects ...

 

[Curryong]

I'm not a millennial. I was born and brought up in Britain, was an adult when Charles and Diana were dating and I can remember the 1970s and 80s perfectly, as well as the class system pertaining to those times.

Even though the 1970s and 1980s were so long ago there were plenty of aristocrats and royals from both the BRF and other royal Houses who were not set in their ways like concrete and found ways to accommodate their new spouses' friends, interests and hobbies into their own lifestyles.

 

[Denville]

So it was quite OK for Charles as a husband to behave virtually as a married bachelor, giving nothing, remaining inflexible, still with his circle of friends, his lifestyle in private, his hobbies and interests intact and primary?

It is fine then to not take an interest in any hobbies of his young wife, to not interact with friends of Diana's before her marriage, not host any dinner parties or evenings for them, just behave as he had all his adult life, with himself as the sun around which all the satellites spun? What a fine modern outlook on married life!

Charles did write to his friends when he married, to say that he would have less time to spend with them..and he did do things like take Diana on sunshine holidays when he would normally have had a winter skiing holiday, because she was pregnant..
I don't know if he spent a lot of time with Di's own friends but Im sure he didn't forbid her to see them.
Besides which the thing is that when you marry a royal, for all sorts of reasons, status, security, tradition, you marry intot their way of life and it was rather different back in 1980 than now. The queen expected married in royals to accommodate themselves to the RF's routine. Diana stil had time ot vist her own friends, and socialise with them.. but she was expected, like other royal wives, to spend Xmas with the family, go to Balmoral etc.. Now royal wives are less tied to tradition and the "the RF first" than they were but I've seen people complaining that not all the family is with the Queen for Xmas or they spend some of the big holidays with their own famliies etc.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

So it was quite OK for Charles as a husband to behave virtually as a married bachelor, giving nothing, remaining inflexible, still with his circle of friends, his lifestyle in private, his hobbies and interests intact and primary?

I might agree with your point except I think it was clear that Charles didn't intentionally marry someone who didn't share his interests. He honestly thought that Diana enjoyed the country lifestyle. In fact, they went fishing on one of their first dates. Diana seemed happy to spent time with his friends and doing things he liked. He envisioned the two of them being happy doing these things together. If he had known that Diana didn't like polo and his other interests, he never would have gotten involved with her. It would have been a deal breaker - and Diana knew it.

The problem was Diana was not honest with him - mainly because she wasn't honest with herself. i understand that she was 19 years old, but she was an adult. She knew what he wanted, but he didn't know what she wanted.

I do acknowledge though, that Charles should not have gotten involved with a 19 year old. Unfortunately, he was not strong enough to accept the hit to his reputation by breaking it off when he started having doubts.