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  #681  
Old 08-24-2017, 10:22 PM
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This is just my opinion and feeling, no proof as such. However, I feel that because of the acrimonious end to the Wales marriage the boys probably felt very uncomfortable speaking to their father with regard to their innermost feelings about all the good times with their mum, the lovely person that she was and how she made them feel. And they certainly wouldn't have approached Camilla with any of that!

Of course, they had each other, thank God, but what with the discomfort, and the 'stiff upper lip, carry on regardless' attitude of the BRF, I believe that as the years passed the brothers closed off about their mother and gradually stopped speaking about her to others. Perhaps that's where the Fellowes/McCorqudales could have helped, but I don't think they saw that much of them.

Over the last few months the dam wall has broken a good bit, and all sorts of feelings are coming to the surface, including sympathy for their mother's plight in those lonely years after the separation, with Charles lackeys like Soames and others attacking her in the press and the media turning on her.

I don't mean that I think that William and Harry hate their father or even dislike him much of the time, but as we've said, families are complex, Charles is a very entitled individual, very conscious of his position, and I think things have sometimes been quite difficult for his sons to articulate their feelings, about the marriage, their mother, their stepmother and about him.

I do think the brothers have been conflicted about their parents, the marriage and how it all went down, including Camilla's part in it. As Charles won't brook any criticism at all of his wife, that adds to it all. But I certainly feel that William and Harry's feelings have evolved over time and are still doing so, and that has probabably meant strains with their father and stepmother, especially this year. Jmo.
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  #682  
Old 08-25-2017, 12:30 AM
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Curryong - You did a really good job of articulating a very likely scenario...lots of love and unavoidable feelings of conflict too. A side note, I always gave William enormous credit for inviting Camilla's granddaughter to be a member of his wedding party, due to all the mixed emotions he must feel.
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  #683  
Old 08-25-2017, 12:39 AM
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Most likely by the time William was planning his wedding, he had the opportunity to really get to know Camilla and found out that she wasn't the ogre she was painted out to be and formed a good relationship with her. This is one thing I tried to impress on my kids. Loving a step parent and respecting them and liking them and forming a good relationship is in no way disloyal to the other parent in a divorce.

I'm sure that if Diana had lived and found someone to share her life with that the boys would also try and form a good relationship with their step father. It comes with maturity.
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  #684  
Old 08-25-2017, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
This is just my opinion and feeling, no proof as such. However, I feel that because of the acrimonious end to the Wales marriage the boys probably felt very uncomfortable speaking to their father with regard to their innermost feelings about all the good times with their mum, the lovely person that she was and how she made them feel. And they certainly wouldn't have approached Camilla with any of that!

Of course, they had each other, thank God, but what with the discomfort, and the 'stiff upper lip, carry on regardless' attitude of the BRF, I believe that as the years passed the brothers closed off about their mother and gradually stopped speaking about her to others. Perhaps that's where the Fellowes/McCorqudales could have helped, but I don't think they saw that much of them.

Over the last few months the dam wall has broken a good bit, and all sorts of feelings are coming to the surface, including sympathy for their mother's plight in those lonely years after the separation, with Charles lackeys like Soames and others attacking her in the press and the media turning on her.

I don't mean that I think that William and Harry hate their father or even dislike him much of the time, but as we've said, families are complex, Charles is a very entitled individual, very conscious of his position, and I think things have sometimes been quite difficult for his sons to articulate their feelings, about the marriage, their mother, their stepmother and about him.

I do think the brothers have been conflicted about their parents, the marriage and how it all went down, including Camilla's part in it. As Charles won't brook any criticism at all of his wife, that adds to it all. But I certainly feel that William and Harry's feelings have evolved over time and are still doing so, and that has probabably meant strains with their father and stepmother, especially this year. Jmo.


Excellent post
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  #685  
Old 08-25-2017, 02:12 PM
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Here's an article from today's New York Times:

Diana Saved the Queen

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/o...ft-region&_r=0
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  #686  
Old 08-25-2017, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
Here's an article from today's New York Times:

Diana Saved the Queen

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/o...ft-region&_r=0
I was expecting the usual and cheesy US view on Diana but instead here's a good and balanced article on the Monarchy (even if the title "Diana saved the Queen" is a bit exaggerated imo).

At last a good paper in an ocean of nonsense.

Thks for sharing.
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  #687  
Old 08-26-2017, 10:23 AM
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Fabulous article on Diana by the renowned novelist Hilary Mantel (Wolf Hall, etc.); "An icon ‘only loosely based on the young woman born Diana Spencer’ "

Link

Apart from the contents of the article, even I -a non native English user- could recognize the well-composed sentences, the intelligent phrasing and the refreshing angle from which Hilary Mantel reviewed the phenomenon "Diana".

A fellow poster remarked (warned?) that Hilary Mantel was a republican. That may be so, this did not stop this Pulitzer Prize laureate to write an article which easily rose above all other in the endless stream of publications. Maybe the fact that Hilary Mantel has no warm feelings for the idea that a head of state is not chosen but determined by birth, actually helped her to keep a healthy distance to "the topic" and resulted in one of the best articles I ever read about the third daughter of a countryside aristocrat who became a prisoner herself from her own world famous imago.
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  #688  
Old 08-26-2017, 10:48 AM
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With regard to the relationship father/boys/stepmother etc we cannot forget that in this family there is absolutely no option not to get along or be pragmatic.

In an average family, Charles probably would never have married Diana and if, they'd divorced much sooner and one or both boys would have broken with either father or stepmother or even mother, if still alive, the whole family broken down.

Whatever has happened, they HAVE to get along and find a way with each other therefore it's impossible to guess how the relations would be if there was no public to comment on it or judge or expect professional duty.
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  #689  
Old 08-26-2017, 11:09 AM
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Thanks for finding that excellent article. It is the best one I've ever read commemorating Diana. It made her real. It made her human. It puts things into a clear and focused perspective.

Very, very well written and worth the read.
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  #690  
Old 08-26-2017, 11:48 AM
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Ms Mantel's article is indeed fabulous, well balanced and fair. A 'far cry' from the mud slinging acrimony being peddled elsewhere during this ghastly 'Diana-fest'..
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  #691  
Old 08-26-2017, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Fabulous article on Diana by the renowned novelist Hilary Mantel (Wolf Hall, etc.); "An icon ‘only loosely based on the young woman born Diana Spencer’ "

Link
Amazing article indeed !
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  #692  
Old 08-26-2017, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
With regard to the relationship father/boys/stepmother etc we cannot forget that in this family there is absolutely no option not to get along or be pragmatic.

In an average family, Charles probably would never have married Diana and if, they'd divorced much sooner and one or both boys would have broken with either father or stepmother or even mother, if still alive, the whole family broken down.

Whatever has happened, they HAVE to get along and find a way with each other therefore it's impossible to guess how the relations would be if there was no public to comment on it or judge or expect professional duty.

Wow cynical. Not all divorces end in war of the roses. If they had been a normal family, yes a divorce likely sooner. And quite likely a lot cleaner. No reason to think the only reason the boys talk to their father is because they are royalty. Divorces happen every day and don't all, or even most, end in the ostracizing of one parent.

Yes they have a choice to get along or not. Yes in public they have to. But in private is another matter. And it is evident the boys not only have a relationship with their father but Camilla and her family. Like attending her private family birthday. No public requirement to do so.
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  #693  
Old 08-26-2017, 02:07 PM
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I'm not saying they are faking their relations. But the fact that they have to get along because of the position they are in probably helped to smoothen things out in private while without the spotlight some things might have escalated. You try to forgive because what else can you do, and get along at least in a civil manner. In the long term, time does heal not all but some wounds, and you just get on with it.
Thats what I think everybody did, I am sure there are some wounds that will never heal or questions never answered, and you cannot undo things. I believe they all get along fine but do not come too close without being invited to do so.
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  #694  
Old 08-26-2017, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I have read the same things that shastalucie has pointed out but again, there's no way of really knowing whether these things occurred or not. It does sound plausible to me though as something a 15 year old would think and feel in the aftermath of a divorce. I can only cite my own example for this. My kids were all teenagers when their parents split up and divorced and all of a sudden there was mom on one hand and dad on the other hand.

There were times mom was the bad guy and times that dad was the bad guy. There were times my kids felt they had to denigrate their dad when they were around me. I'm sure they felt they had to do that around their dad too. Its hard to make teenagers understand that a divorce is the best thing sometimes for the peace and serenity for both parents and never means that they love their children any less.

William and Harry had been dealing with a very acrimonious split between their parents for quite a few years before Diana's death and were shuffled between the two parents a lot. They went from the vacation with the Al-Fayeds to Balmoral that summer and were at Balmoral when Diana died. I think if (and I say if because we really don't know) William had shown a lot of displeasure towards his mom as been reported, that could have really been a traumatic issue when his mother died so suddenly. Imagine what the thoughts would be if William's last memories of talking with his mother were ones of displeasure? That's a hard thing to swallow knowing that their last words may not have been "I love you" although I'm sure that they did.

Twenty years down the road and coming to deal with those times and the sudden death of their mother as adults may have given them more insight and understanding of their parents then they had as teenagers. For the most part, I think teenagers go through a process of beginning to see their parents as real people with flaws and quirks and positives and negatives as they grow older. William and Harry were just not at that point yet when their mother died. Her death made things all the more confusing for them and harder to deal with.

We just cannot assume that what William and Harry thought then and how they saw things at the time of the accident as the way they see and think about things now. With the passing years came understanding of both their parents. One thing that doesn't change though through all this confusion is the love they feel for both parents. Love for parents is something that is unconditional and that love accepts them warts and all.
Are there any books on Charles and Diana's relationship that are credible? I would like to read one but I want to avoid those that take sides.
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  #695  
Old 08-26-2017, 02:41 PM
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Are there any books on Charles and Diana's relationship that are credible? I would like to read one but I want to avoid those that take sides.
None of them will be unbiased ...however if you want their personal thoughts/views read the two they were directly involved in (the Morton and Dimbley books).

Past that there's dozens of them out there (Her former bodyguard wrote one, Wharfe). Not sure I'd give them too much weight though...again, just opinion.



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  #696  
Old 08-26-2017, 02:44 PM
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There are a lot of books out there on Diana and they are written by people that have researched her, have known her and have worked for her. My advice is to read quite a few of them and form your own opinion of what you feel rings true to you and what doesn't. If I had to suggest the top three of the books I've read on Diana they would be:

1. Diana in Search of Herself: Portrait of a Troubled Princess by Sally Bedell Smith.

2. The Housekeeper's Diary by Wendy Berry

3. Diana: Closely Guarded Secret by Ken Wharfe

The reason I picked these three is because the first one is written by a woman that is an excellent biographer in my opinion. She did her research very well and talked with a lot of people that knew Diana. The other two are people that knew Diana by working with her or for her and, to me, are unbiased.

Of course this is just my opinion on reading material. Others here may have other favorites for their own personal reasons. There is a *lot* of information out there if you look for it.
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  #697  
Old 08-26-2017, 04:16 PM
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THe Daily Mail has an article re Hilary Mantel's great piece. Im not giving the link.

The twitter link is headlined:

Hilary Mantel says Diana was 'squirming, twitching' in last interviews.

Thats it! As a position statement which is normally what a headline is.

Mailonline have done a hatchet job on Mantel before.
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  #698  
Old 08-26-2017, 04:27 PM
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'Archive on 4'

Diana- Her life backwards'

BBC Radio 4 - Archive on 4, Diana: A Life Backwards
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  #699  
Old 08-26-2017, 04:59 PM
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Mantel is a staunch republican. Not saying it disqualifies her from commenting on Diana but I'm putting it out there for the sake of transparency.
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  #700  
Old 08-26-2017, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
THe Daily Mail has an article re Hilary Mantel's great piece. Im not giving the link.

The twitter link is headlined:

Hilary Mantel says Diana was 'squirming, twitching' in last interviews.

Thats it! As a position statement which is normally what a headline is.

Mailonline have done a hatchet job on Mantel before.
In the process of writing that headline, the Fail also is doing a hatchet job on Diana. Shows the quality of that publication doesn't it? Its sad that the reason this publication is still in business is because there are people out there that feed on this kind of thing.
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