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  #661  
Old 08-24-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by VictoriaB View Post
Plus aren't there plans to do a series of Feud about Charles and Diana. Unfortunately, the coals are just going to get raked over again and again.

I would also place a bet that these programmes are going to be somewhat myopic (hasn't the producer of Feud already admitted to being a fan of Diana). I doubt there will be much balance and its all going to be how evil Charles and Camilla hurt poor, little, innocent Diana while haughty Anne, cruel Philip and the cold hearted Queen stood by and ignored her cries for help. This is entertainment after all, not a pretense at history. Every story needs a villain and a hero/ine. This story was cast 20 years ago.
I think there are plans to do that. That series concentrated on Bette Davis and Joan Crawford last season, but I can't remember the name of it.
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  #662  
Old 08-24-2017, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
No, they didn't loathe their mother for her behavior during the break up. Listen and read all the interviews William and Harry has done this year.
Of course they didn't loathe her. Neither do they loathe their father. It's called sarcasm...
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  #663  
Old 08-24-2017, 11:17 AM
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"Loath" is a very strong word to speculate about...imo...
"Hate" isn't much better.
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  #664  
Old 08-24-2017, 11:23 AM
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If we're going down that route its also possible that although they love their mother they loathe her for how she behaved during the War of the Waleses. She might've been an English rose but she was no shrinking violet.
Perhaps they do but we were discussing their relationship with their father.

Like I said families are complicated.
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  #665  
Old 08-24-2017, 11:37 AM
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Yes, families are complicated! And inasmuch as none of us on this board are members of the BRF, it's possibly, even likely, that our versions of the 'facts' are wildly inaccurate.
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  #666  
Old 08-24-2017, 11:55 AM
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I just hope there isn't any hate or loathing or anything of the sort between any the people involved (alive or dead) :(

not a fact, not even my opinion, just my sincere wish
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  #667  
Old 08-24-2017, 12:02 PM
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No member of the public has seen the BBC programme yet. All this commentary is based on what the press have seen in preview, so its their interpretation.
It doesnt txm until Sunday.

Sometimes this gets lost. Take the Newsweek article. Harry did not explicitly say he and his brother were forced to walk. It was implied in the article and made 'fact' by UK media (dont know about elsewhere).

What the last few weeks has reinforced for me is that you can never take royal news at face value.
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  #668  
Old 08-24-2017, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
I love The Crown. I will be very interested to see how they handle the Charles and Diana story. I have heard that the Queen and Prince Philip watch it--not sure if that is true.
For such a costly production there were far too many factual errors, there was too much hineininterpretieren* and there was even pure fantasy woven into the story (for an example Sir Winston Churchill and his secretary, Venetia Scott, but she was 100% a fabrication to spice things up).

One needs to be a fly on the wall too see if A - the Queen and the Duke have a suscription to Netflix (if these Ninety-somethingers have any desire to have Netflix anyway) and B - if they indeed were watching The Crown and not Orange Is The New Black. With other words: pure guesses.

(* Hineininterpretieren is a wonderful German word which is difficult to translate: maybe it translates best as: re-interpretating things with knowledge no one could have known back then. The Crown was a very lenghty exercise in that).

Having heard various comments by the two princes, I feel they are re-interpretating things as well, not as the boys they were but with knowledge they did not know 20 years ago and with the eyes of much older persons looking back on what happened during that rollercoaster time of emotions. They seem to differ in bringing up details every time they open their mouth about it.
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  #669  
Old 08-24-2017, 12:53 PM
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I didn't read any of the earlier interviews as saying they weren't offered any support. They didn't clearly say "Dad tried to help us," but they also didn't say he ignored it, either. What they did say was that they weren't willing to open themselves up emotionally to deal with the complicated feelings.

Just because a person doesn't grab the metaphorical rope that could pull him out of a morass doesn't mean there was no rope offered. They could have sat in session after session with counselors refusing to participate. If so, they wouldn't be the first children to do so. I think it is telling that their efforts around mental health aren't focused on "what can be offered" as much as they are about reassuring people that it's ok to accept what assistance is available and to reiterate that talking can be helpful even when you think it won't be.

The only clear criticism either made of the choices their father or grandparents made was when Harry said that a child shouldn't be made to walk behind his mother's coffin in such a big, public way. But I wouldn't be surprised if, in hindsight, the family as a whole has decided that isn't a choice they'd make again.

It's a hard line to walk, to take a moment to insert their perspective into the narrative about their family's life, trying to restrict their comments so that they are only about themselves and the one family member who can't be hurt one way or another anymore. I do think they've made some missteps, but for the most part I don't think they have much to regret.

I can sort of see why some of you think they should just stay silent...but that's not foolproof, either, and there's a little bit of laziness to that approach. I also don't think it's a realistic option in this day and age.
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  #670  
Old 08-24-2017, 01:13 PM
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A reminder that discussion of the Netflix production The Crown can be found in the "The Crown" - Netflix plans £100m epic 20-episode TV drama series on The Queen thread.
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  #671  
Old 08-24-2017, 01:33 PM
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Just because a person doesn't grab the metaphorical rope that could pull him out of a morass doesn't mean there was no rope offered. They could have sat in session after session with counselors refusing to participate. If so, they wouldn't be the first children to do so. I think it is telling that their efforts around mental health aren't focused on "what can be offered" as much as they are about reassuring people that it's ok to accept what assistance is available and to reiterate that talking can be helpful even when you think it won't be.
Good post loonytick!

It is very likely that neither was ready to open up and accept the help that would have been offered to them in the weeks/months after her death. Harry has shared recently that it was only in the last couple of years that he was prepared to deal with Diana's loss and this was only because his brother was concerned about his behavior.
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  #672  
Old 08-24-2017, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
Well. YES.. but nothing surprises "Never apologise and [especially] NEVER EXPLAIN" would certainly have been my advice to those most closely involved in this tragedy...

Anything and everything 'made public' has been and will be distorted and re-interpreted to suit different narratives, so silence will always be the wisest option...
You can't blame them for trying. Twenty years of dirty laundry and the continual public vilification of their father is a terrible burden to be carried forever for them, their father and Camilla.

Unfortunately, now the media will just twist everything remotely nice they said and heap even more on Charles and Camilla because saying nice things about their father is obviously a sign of brainwashing, coercion, or some other unsavoury skulduggery.

Well, it was worth a crack boys.
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  #673  
Old 08-24-2017, 06:44 PM
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I've heard that William was displeased with his mother during the summer of 1997. He wasn't impressed with Dodi and he did not appreciate his mother's rather deliberate public displays in a bathing suit, kissing and hugging Dodi in full view of the paparazzi, etc. William had not held back in making his views clear to his mother in several heated phone calls in the weeks before her death. Of course, his reaction was completely normal for a guy his age and most kids would have felt the same way. Still, I think these exchanges with his mother (if true) would make his memory and feeling of the events around her death as especially painful.
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  #674  
Old 08-24-2017, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by shastalucie View Post
I've heard that William was displeased with his mother during the summer of 1997. He wasn't impressed with Dodi and he did not appreciate his mother's rather deliberate public displays in a bathing suit, kissing and hugging Dodi in full view of the paparazzi, etc. William had not held back in making his views clear to his mother in several heated phone calls in the weeks before her death. Of course, his reaction was completely normal for a guy his age and most kids would have felt the same way. Still, I think these exchanges with his mother (if true) would make his memory and feeling of the events around her death as especially painful.


Where have you got this information? Who did you hear it from ? Etc etc
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  #675  
Old 08-24-2017, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
I didn't read any of the earlier interviews as saying they weren't offered any support. They didn't clearly say "Dad tried to help us," but they also didn't say he ignored it, either. What they did say was that they weren't willing to open themselves up emotionally to deal with the complicated feelings.

Just because a person doesn't grab the metaphorical rope that could pull him out of a morass doesn't mean there was no rope offered. They could have sat in session after session with counselors refusing to participate. If so, they wouldn't be the first children to do so. I think it is telling that their efforts around mental health aren't focused on "what can be offered" as much as they are about reassuring people that it's ok to accept what assistance is available and to reiterate that talking can be helpful even when you think it won't be.

The only clear criticism either made of the choices their father or grandparents made was when Harry said that a child shouldn't be made to walk behind his mother's coffin in such a big, public way. But I wouldn't be surprised if, in hindsight, the family as a whole has decided that isn't a choice they'd make again.

It's a hard line to walk, to take a moment to insert their perspective into the narrative about their family's life, trying to restrict their comments so that they are only about themselves and the one family member who can't be hurt one way or another anymore. I do think they've made some missteps, but for the most part I don't think they have much to regret.

I can sort of see why some of you think they should just stay silent...but that's not foolproof, either, and there's a little bit of laziness to that approach. I also don't think it's a realistic option in this day and age.
To be honest, I don't exactly read that as a criticism of his family; I think the larger context of all the interviews, there's an understanding that the boys' walk was in response to public expectations that they show their mourning. It's entirely possible that those expectations, as much or more than their family, is what Harry is referring to when he says that a child wouldn't be expected to do that today.
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  #676  
Old 08-24-2017, 07:15 PM
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I have read the same things that shastalucie has pointed out but again, there's no way of really knowing whether these things occurred or not. It does sound plausible to me though as something a 15 year old would think and feel in the aftermath of a divorce. I can only cite my own example for this. My kids were all teenagers when their parents split up and divorced and all of a sudden there was mom on one hand and dad on the other hand.

There were times mom was the bad guy and times that dad was the bad guy. There were times my kids felt they had to denigrate their dad when they were around me. I'm sure they felt they had to do that around their dad too. Its hard to make teenagers understand that a divorce is the best thing sometimes for the peace and serenity for both parents and never means that they love their children any less.

William and Harry had been dealing with a very acrimonious split between their parents for quite a few years before Diana's death and were shuffled between the two parents a lot. They went from the vacation with the Al-Fayeds to Balmoral that summer and were at Balmoral when Diana died. I think if (and I say if because we really don't know) William had shown a lot of displeasure towards his mom as been reported, that could have really been a traumatic issue when his mother died so suddenly. Imagine what the thoughts would be if William's last memories of talking with his mother were ones of displeasure? That's a hard thing to swallow knowing that their last words may not have been "I love you" although I'm sure that they did.

Twenty years down the road and coming to deal with those times and the sudden death of their mother as adults may have given them more insight and understanding of their parents then they had as teenagers. For the most part, I think teenagers go through a process of beginning to see their parents as real people with flaws and quirks and positives and negatives as they grow older. William and Harry were just not at that point yet when their mother died. Her death made things all the more confusing for them and harder to deal with.

We just cannot assume that what William and Harry thought then and how they saw things at the time of the accident as the way they see and think about things now. With the passing years came understanding of both their parents. One thing that doesn't change though through all this confusion is the love they feel for both parents. Love for parents is something that is unconditional and that love accepts them warts and all.
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  #677  
Old 08-24-2017, 07:34 PM
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Agreed. The way that we view our parents in our childhood, adolescence and early adulthood tends to change over time. I'd hardly expect that the brothers would still be holding onto the same opinions about their parents that they did in 1997. They know them now as other adults and not just as their parents.

Whatever William and Harry were thinking about dad and mum in the summer of 1997, is likely to have evolved as they have matured.
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  #678  
Old 08-24-2017, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
You can't blame them for trying. Twenty years of dirty laundry and the continual public vilification of their father is a terrible burden to be carried forever for them, their father and Camilla.

Unfortunately, now the media will just twist everything remotely nice they said and heap even more on Charles and Camilla because saying nice things about their father is obviously a sign of brainwashing, coercion, or some other unsavoury skulduggery.

Well, it was worth a crack boys.
Surely the heartfelt documentaries William and Harry recorded are also to do with the distress they've felt over twenty years as their mother's reputation and memory has been attacked and besmirched again and again. Unlike their father and stepmother, Diana is no longer alive to be able to respond to any of it, nor to get sympathetic authors to do it for her.

They said in clips before the docos were aired that they felt that they wanted to protect Diana, to turn the focus on her work, charities, causes, the good Diana did in the world, as well as share their memories of her as a mum.

If the primary aim of the documentaries was to talk about Charles and Camilla and put their relationship and reputation into perspective from William and Harry's POV, then it failed miserably. As we know, Charles and Camilla weren't mentioned at all in the first two documentaries. He was in the second, by Harry, for a few moments, although we haven't seen this last documentary of course. I'm looking forward to it.
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  #679  
Old 08-24-2017, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
Payton
You say "no one knows what really happened at that time " and then tell us Charles loves them and are a close family so if we don't know what happened because we weren't there how did we know what sort of father Charles is ??
How can you even ask such a question....good grief, He helped raised those boys from birth, he has always shown his love for them, he is their father for heaven's sake Rob, no man in his right mind would not love his children and even though he and Diana had problems IMHO believe he was just as devastated as they were by the death of Diana.......shell shock is what I believe the entire family went through and did not recover over night either. I will never in a zillion years doubt his love for both his sons.......never and neither should anyone with a sense of decency or morals doubt that love. Just because someone is not mentioned or pictures are not shown does not mean there is no love for William or Harry, both those boys have been through hell for the media has yet to let them alone..they have turned out brilliantly and have just a strong sense of family values and know that they must stand above all the crap this is dealt to them from haters and the media...just how could any of us get through what they have gone through.....we are not in the public eye like they are and that is a millions times worse for them......always watching yr back, what you say, how you dress, who you are with.........nothing they do is right for the haters or the media .......it is like be damned if you do and be damned if you dont.......my heart goes out to them for this will be something they will have to deal with for the rest of their lives everything the anniversary of their mother's death appears ....when will the haters and media let these boys alone to live their own lives? Same thing same time next year and the year after.... this is for something I can not say here

No one has to like either of them yet what have they done that they deserve to be targets for the haters and media..........?
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  #680  
Old 08-24-2017, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
Where have you got this information? Who did you hear it from ? Etc etc
It was in The Diana Chronicles on page 11 "He felt mounting dismay at his mother's relationship with with Dodi"..."The pictures of her frolicking about the Jonikal in August led to a blowup on the phone with his mother."

And also on page 463 after Diana's death, "The young prince had had a troubled night perhaps due to the hard words on the phone with his mother...now this terrible news meant they would never hug each other and say sorry."
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