Princess Caroline Attends 36th Flower Show

[Julia]

MONACO - MAY 3: Princess Caroline of Hanover attends the 36th International Bunch Contest to open the 6th Flower Show known as "Reveries sur les Jardins" May 3, 2003 in Monaco.

All photos from: alloverpress

 

[Alexandria]

From www.corbis.com

... What is with Ernst August's pants?! He reminds me of a big tube of French's mustard!

 

[Julia]

I'll bet they're cords, too! :woot:

 

[ficciones]

In response to galisteo's question about the use of German and Austrian titles, here is a Web site: The German Nobility

This is the relevant quote: "Since 1919, according to the German republican government, the nobility no longer exists as a legal entity. Nevertheless, the titles and noble designations of the nobility have not been abolished, as they have in Austria, and may still be carried. Legally they are now merely parts of the family name and in theory convey no status. "

I could be wrong, but I was rather under the impression that Caroline's new Hanoverian title is far grander than her Monagesque title.

 

[Julia]

Hi galisteo and ficciones,

I believe (someone correct me if I am wrong) that Caroline is referred to as: Princess Ernst-August. Just as Marie-Chantal is called Princess Pavlos. The wife takes the husband's name. Another example would be Prince Philip's mum. She was Princess Andrew of Greece.

Um, I believe that Caroline is HRH Princess Ernst-August. So, she outranks all of her family members except for her father (I read) because he is a sovereign prince.

 

[Jacqueline]

I think that the Hanover name is very presitigious socially these days, but in theory, wouldn't Caroline's rank as a Serene Highness of Monaco be greater than that of her husband even though she takes his name? After all, her family is reigning and her father is a Head of State and reigning Sovereign.

 

[ficciones]

Ernst has a nifty set of titles. If I have it correctly, he is HRH the prince of Hanover, duke of Brunswick and Lüneburg, and prince of Great Britain and Ireland. If Queen Victoria had not been born, Ernst would today be the king of England as he is descended from Victoria's uncle, the duke of Cumberland.

I am no expert, but I believe that Ernst as the head of the family (i.e. the prince as opposed to a prince) might outrank Rainier and certainly outranks Caroline. That might explain why, as Julia pointed out, Caroline is referred to as Princess Ernst of Hanover rather than by her Christian name.

Would be interesting to hear from anyone who is an expert...

 

[Alexandria]

I am no expert, but a lot of what ficciones rings familiar with what I've read. Prince Ernst's hereditary ties to Great Britain makes him out rank both Prince Ranier and Princess Caroline, despite the fact that Monaco's monarchy is still ruling unlike the Hanover monarchy. I read too in a Vanity Fair article about Caroline and Ernst (following the infamous peeing incident in Turkey after which Ernst was declared persona non grata by many royal families) that he technically had to ask permission of Queen Elizabeth II to marry Carolline (he did not).

He is in fact in line to the British throne, though quite far back - we are talking about being after the Duke of Kent and his family, Prince Michael and his family, so he is probably like 100 in line to the throne or some ridiculous number like that.

 

[Julia]

In Taraborrelli's new book "Once Upon A Time" there is clarification in regards to Caroline's status in European royalty.

Eventhough her father is the soverign prince of ruling principality status of HRH outranks HSH. So, my guess (could be totally off), in agreement with ficciones, is that Ernst outranks Rainier.

Upon marrying Ernst Caroline, of course, became Princess of Hanover - a distinction that carries with it the title of Her Royal Highness. This, naturally, outranks her previous title of Her Serene Highness (I'm not sure if Taraborrelli is correct in saying that HSH was Caroline's previous title. I believe she is HRH Princess Ernst August of Hanover and HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco (because she was born with the title).

Taraborrelli maintains that after she married Ernst she became: "Her Royal Highness, Caroline, Princess of Hanover, Duchess of Brunswick and Luneberg. She now outranked everyone in her family except her father, the Prince."

So, my guess is that she is referred to as Princess Ernst August or Princess of Hanover but notice it is not Princess Caroline of Hanover. She is HRH, Caroline, Princess of Hanover, Duchess, etc..

I don't believe that she relinquished her title of HSH. I could be wrong but I seriously doubt that she did. Does anyone else know?

So if you were to rank who had the upperhand title wise my guess is that it would look as follows...

1. HRH Prince Ernst August of Hanover
2. HSH Prince Rainier of Monaco (Sovereign Prince)
3. HRH Princess Ernst August, or HRH, Caroline, Princess of Hanover
4. HSH Prince Albert of Monaco (Heir Apparent)
5. HRH Princess Alexandra of Hanover, Duchess of Brunswick and Luneburg

Or would Alexandra outrank Albert? I wouldn't think so because she is the youngest child of Ernst and therefore her eldest brother (is it Ernst or Christian??) would because he is the heir apparent to Ernst August.

I may be totally off on this alltogether!

 

[Benn]

Ernst is not a prince of Great Britain, his ancestor the duke of Cumberland and Teviotdale was because he was the son of George III, and George V because of being a grandson.
They were striped of that title after WWI by the british royal family, and the other duchies dont exist anymore although they still use them.
The thing about germany is true, you can still use those titles but they are just part of your name.
They take that nobility thing very seriously there.
He belongs to the Uradel (high nobility) but maybe his sons wont because his previous wife wasn't a noble (now they belong to the briefadel Low nobilty), and caroline has a lower rank.
She can be addressed as HRH because of the marriage, and they both outrank the other monaco royals.
A sovereing prince outranks anyother prince, so Rainier outranks all of the european heirs and heiressess.
In the case of Ernst he isn't really a prince because the Kingdom of hanover ended when Prussia took those lands in it's possessions in 1866, they are still dukes of Braunschweig-Lüneburg.
He is in the line of succession to he british throne but is well after number 1400 or 4000, I don't remenber, I think is 4000 something.
In the case of rainier and ernst is difficult to know because they are both head of house, but like I said he isn't really prince and Rainier is still reigning.

 

[Benn]

I forgat, Roman Catholic descendants and descendants who are married to a Roman Catholic are excluded from the list of succession.

 

[ficciones]

Benn is absolutely right about the Hanovers (or whatever their family name might be) being stripped of their British titles circa World War I. For some reason I thought they'd gotten them back in the 1950s. Mea culpa.

Just for clarification, my note about Ernst's claim to the British throne was an exercise in a pretty big "what if" -- if Victoria had not been born, following the next line of descent to the present would bring us to Ernst, or so I've read. I hadn't meant to infer that Ernst was at all a factor in the actual line of succession. Just that in the galaxy of German nobility his star shines brightly.

Naturally, the fact that Rainier still rules his principality makes his title more relevant in practice than Ernst's. Which is why I suppose it was so interesting to me that news reports referred to Caroline's marriage as a step up for her. Protocol and rank are strange animals.

Interesting discussion.

 

[elektraking]

Yes Benn you are right. So when Ernst married Caroline his rights to the British throne were transfered to his sons. And before marrying Caroline, he did receive a permission from the Queen.
I think that he is 47th in the line for the British throne. One of the reasons to be so far in the succession is because of the Turkish pavilion accident. B)

 

[elektraking]

Think about that if Germany becames a monarchy, prince Ernst of Hannover would be a king.

 

[Julia]

So, is Taraborrelli incorrect in his statements about Caroline outranking her siblings (Albert)? I would have thought that apart from her father, because he is a sovereign prince, she and Ernst would outrank Albert, etc...because they are Their Royal Highnesses...

 

[ficciones]

The book -- especially with a claim like Caroline now outranking her siblings -- must have been fact-checked. Probably a reliable source.

It's all enough to make one dizzy, no?

 

[Julia]

very dizzying... Interesting but dizzying.

 

[Jacqueline]

Yes, I have been following this discussion, and I must say that I am thoroughly confused.

 

[Benn]

I read somewhere that she does indeed outrank her sibblings.
I am pretty sure that Ernst is 4000 something, i saw it somewhere in fact you can look at this pages.

http://members.aol.com/JENCCHS/line.html

I don't remenber the other one.

He did ask for permission of the Queen, he still thinks of himself as part of that family.

 

[Benn]

He could be King if victoria had not existed, and he still may be.
Some people say that Victoria wasn't really a grandaughter of George III, because of the illness that runs in the family neophilia??? or something, the same thing that the son of the last Czar of Russia had.
It can only be transmitted by men o women, I don't remenber very well what the thing is, but it puts in doubt her paternity.
Some people say that she wasn't really the daughter of the Duke of Kent because of that, and because her mother had affairs with women (a very close friend) and men.
There is a book about Victoria, it talks about a very close friend of her mother a Lord or count or earl, something.
He may be the real father.

I dont't know , I'm just saying!!!!

 

[Alexandria]

Hello galisteo!

Ernst must have some? redeeming quality? He just comes off as being so arrogant in interviews and snippets of things I've read about him. Peeing at the Pavillion and punching a photographer dont' make him much more likeable, do they?

 

[Jacqueline]

I wonder if he especially behaves this way with the media and with strangers?

However, I do think that the urinating incident is just something that he did. I don't think that anyone made him do that or that he was aggravated enough to do that. Surely, he knew better. He is just very arrogant at times for absolutely no reason.

I just wonder what he is like at home?

 

[ficciones]

Benn is right that there were speculations about Queen Victoria being fathered by a Irishman -- whom I want to say was called Sir John Conroy. Something like that. The book was published last year and the author's evidence was to do with the lack of hemophilia (and also porphyria?) in Victoria's descendants. The theory went that heriditary diseases don't just suddenly disappear. Even if it's true I don't think it really matters. I'd honestly be amazed if at least a few monarchs in Europe's history weren't the products of affairs.

 

[Jacqueline]

Here are a few more photos from the Flower Show.

Photo From: IBL

 

[Benn]

I agree, may all of them. joke.

I think ernst likes the attention he doesn't get with his noble status.
The person everyone wants to see in this kind of events is always Caroline.

 

[Jacqueline]

Photo From: IBL

 

[Josefine]

is this a yearly event?

 

[hania]

does EA have on Sunglasses or is his eyebrows that big?just curious?

 

[kittencrews]

yes, it's yearly, and lol EA's brows aren't that bad... he has on sunglasses... I think they're transition lenses

 

[CathyEarnshaw]

Originally posted by ficciones@May 7th, 2003 - 4:57 pm
Benn is right that there were speculations about Queen Victoria being fathered by a Irishman -- whom I want to say was called Sir John Conroy. Something like that. The book was published last year and the author's evidence was to do with the lack of hemophilia (and also porphyria?) in Victoria's descendants. The theory went that heriditary diseases don't just suddenly disappear. Even if it's true I don't think it really matters. I'd honestly be amazed if at least a few monarchs in Europe's history weren't the products of affairs.

John Conroy was the Duchess of Kent's lover but not before she married the duke of Kent. Moreover, Victoria was the spitting image of the duke of Kent. She had Hannover written all over her face.

As for hemophilia turning up, it is entirely possible that a spontaneous mutation ocurred at the time of conception. Otherwise, Victoria's father would have been a hemophiliac in order for her to be a carrier. That is unlikely. However, if you go back through Victoria's maternal line - and look at the number of male children (born to aunts, great aunts and so on) who died as infants or as young children, yo might think that the disease surfaced earlier, but it was not discussed or recognized before the mid 19th Century.