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  #141  
Old 04-08-2008, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaDreamin View Post
Rosana...you think it's "romantic" and okay to sleep with a man-who by the way is already living with another woman- and conceive a child with him without barely knowing him is fine and dandy because one is "IN LOVE" and that's all that matters. I disagree. We are not cats and dogs ruled by our hormones. I don't care how much you love someone. If that's the way you do business and you think it's okay GOOD FOR YOU.

I hold myself to a different standard. I don't deem it romantic. I deem it impulsive and little tacky especially for a Catholic Princess, especially one who was burned badly in a previous relationship. Remember Philippe Junot? She was ooooh so in love too and look how that turned out!

When Caroline went to see the late John Paull II to ask him to annul her marriage to Junot-(at the time visibly pregnant by Stefano) even he saw how shallow her behavior was and called her on it(according to one of her biographers) He sent her away and told her to grow up and stop being so self centered, in so many words!
My problem with your posts is that you seem to give pretty harsh judements, based on what at best can be considered rumors and hear-say: what I've read gives a different account of Caroline's behaviour; it is possible that what you've read is closer to the truth than what I know, but in case what you've heard is false, shouldn't you be a little more careful with your opinions?
For example, as far as I know, Caroline and Stefano didn't meet in the summer of 1983 but had already met and dated some months before ( I know different things also about Stefano 's previous relationship and what happened in Vatican); this is just an example of how gossip press can be misleading (whether mine or your info is true is not the point), and in my opinion saying a woman who met a man, fell in love, and not only lived with him 7 years, having three kids but still remembers him dearly (Stefano's mother words) after 18 years from his death was just guided by hormones, without knowing the person and being sure of how things really went, is a tad rushed.
Plus, had it only been lust between Stefano and Caroline, I guess when she turned out pregnant Stefano (as most 23 year old guys) would have run for the hills. JMO of course.
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  #142  
Old 04-08-2008, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Grace View Post
For example, as far as I know, Caroline and Stefano didn't meet in the summer of 1983 but had already met and dated some months before ( I know different things also about Stefano 's previous relationship and what happened in Vatican);
Oooh, what things do you know about stefano and his previous relationship?
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  #143  
Old 04-08-2008, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Grace View Post
My problem with your posts is that you seem to give pretty harsh judements, based on what at best can be considered rumors and hear-say: what I've read gives a different account of Caroline's behaviour; it is possible that what you've read is closer to the truth than what I know, but in case what you've heard is false, shouldn't you be a little more careful with your opinions?
For example, as far as I know, Caroline and Stefano didn't meet in the summer of 1983 but had already met and dated some months before ( I know different things also about Stefano 's previous relationship and what happened in Vatican); this is just an example of how gossip press can be misleading (whether mine or your info is true is not the point), and in my opinion saying a woman who met a man, fell in love, and not only lived with him 7 years, having three kids but still remembers him dearly (Stefano's mother words) after 18 years from his death was just guided by hormones, without knowing the person and being sure of how things really went, is a tad rushed.
Plus, had it only been lust between Stefano and Caroline, I guess when she turned out pregnant Stefano (as most 23 year old guys) would have run for the hills. JMO of course.
Very well said Grace! Probably the posters here do not know that Caroline has a whole page printed in Italy's major newspaper obituary on Stefano's death anniversary each year, since he was killed in the boat accident, even though she's now married to EA and has a daughter with him. Life goes on you know, but hadn't she loved that man dearly, she wouldn't let the world know that she still remembers him with affection. Besides she still has a close relationship with Stefano's mother, his siblings and their children.
Fernanda, Stefano's Mom has never made any comments on Caroline's marriage to Ernst, nor has her ever blamed her ex daughter in law for stealing somebody else's husband. Ernst and Caroline were also invited at the wedding of Afra, Stefano's niece together with Princess Alexandra. Plus Fernanda said Caroline still calls her "mamma". Do you think their bonds would be still so close, hadn't she had loved Stefano with all her heart?

As for the supposed Stefano's shady connections, I think it's just pure invention of the foreign press. I never read of that in the Italian press, neither have read of him having a mistress in Milan. If this were true, the razzis (especially the Novella2000 ones...) would have surely found her out, like they did with Ducruet's mistress or the Duchess of York's Texan lover.
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  #144  
Old 04-08-2008, 11:16 AM
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The issue, for me, is not whether Caroline loves or loved her husband(s), nor whether she was driven by lust alone. I admire how Stefano's family has embraced Ernst into their own family community and how graciously Ernst has responded to their invitation. This is how civilized people behave. Also, judging from the pictures taken at that time, it seemed that's what William and Harry also did at Charles' and Camilla's wedding. Sometimes keeping a stiff upper lip and all that strict upbringing can leave an impression when it counts.

What I find disturbing and disappointing is that Caroline does not treat her siblings and their offspring in the same generous way, seemingly because of their poor choices of spouses and boy/girlfriends. When Caroline made her own mistakes, she was welcomed back in the bosom of her family. Later, she ensured that further deviances from her catholic upbringing (I am really hard put to find a euphemism that will not sound judgmental) would not carry negative consequences for her own children and her own image.

She is the eldest daughter in the family, the one credited with the most maturity, class, etc, etc. Keeping innocent children from her own blood family at bay because the way they came into this world hurts her delicate sensibilities is no sign of maturity in my book. Even the young hippies from the Kelly side and the black sheep of the family on the Grimaldi side, Baron Christian de Massy, with all his antics, could still find an ally in Princess Grace. I assume it is only if he had been proven to be hurting the principality that Princess Grace would have closed her door on him. But she would not have done that to children, to minors.

So again, Caroline is no saint and she could look at the warm-hearted family of her second husband , or her own mother, to find it in her heart to show a little more charity where her siblings's relationships with the other sex, and ensuing offspring are concerned.
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  #145  
Old 04-08-2008, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by iloveroyals View Post
What I find disturbing and disappointing is that Caroline does not treat her siblings and their offspring in the same generous way, seemingly because of their poor choices of spouses and boy/girlfriends. When Caroline made her own mistakes, she was welcomed back in the bosom of her family. Later, she ensured that further deviances from her catholic upbringing (I am really hard put to find a euphemism that will not sound judgmental) would not carry negative consequences for her own children and her own image.

She is the eldest daughter in the family, the one credited with the most maturity, class, etc, etc. Keeping innocent children from her own blood family at bay because the way they came into this world hurts her delicate sensibilities is no sign of maturity in my book.
Again, as these totally respectable opinions are based on what I assume are rumors and press articles (unless you know the Grimaldi personally) would it hurt to use a "if", a "maybe" instead of presenting your opinions as facts? Sources don't agree on whether Caro "keeps innocent children from her own blood family" and even if she does, we can't be sure of the reason. So presenting these interpretation of her behaviour as hard facts is in my opinion a little too assertive.
An example to explain what I mean: some people think Prince Charles and Prince Philip of England were behind Princess Diana's death, and I could present many a newspaper article to back up these opinions; but if I came here saying that they shouldn't attend public functions because they are murderers someone could tell me I'm being a little extreme. In the same way basing moral and ethical judgements on controversial and unsubstantiated facts is wrong in my opinion and what the press reports should be taken with a grain of salt most of the time and not be considered too reliable.

In a few days, without knowing what actually happened, we basically managed to assert that a person noone of us knows personally has little morals, is an hypocrite, is not a good Catholic, didn't love her husband... I'm sorry but I wouldn't venture on giving such personal judgements even on people I've actually met, let alone a person all I know about is what gossip journalists say.

As for the merit of what you said, I think Caro's and Steph's kids have such different ages, experiences and upbringing that they probably meet but might not have much to say to each other or share; with Albert's kids the issue is more whether their own father and not their aunt has a relationship with them.
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  #146  
Old 04-08-2008, 02:56 PM
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Sorry, Grace, I think I forgot the number one motto of this forum :"Caroline can do no wrong". Anything that might be construed in any other way is due to flawed perceptions, incomplete or incorrect information, or personal character issues. By the way, don't you love that picture I took of Caroline in 1974, which you have been using as your avatar (without ever bothering to ask me about it or thank me for it) ? Well, I do, and it's always a pleasure to see it again, even if I don't always agree with your posts.
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  #147  
Old 04-08-2008, 04:47 PM
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Well your info did come from gossip mags right? If it doesn't and you have more direct info I apologize. As for the avatar I got it from the forum's thread, so it wasn't me who "took" your photo, but the person who made the avatar...I didn't even know where the pic came from. It has been changed already.

Quote:
Anything that might be construed in any other way is due to flawed perceptions, incomplete or incorrect information, or personal character issues.
What I said, and what I think, is not that the info your opinion is based on IS incorrect, but that it MIGHT be incorrect, and that this hypothesis should be taken into account. If we have different information, it doesn't necesseraly mean mine is correct. And I take this into account when forming my opinion. But many people here seem very very sure of the info they have.
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  #148  
Old 04-08-2008, 04:59 PM
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Okay I think everyone should calm down and read this renewed part of the Forum Rules, this is really important:

Zero Tolerance Policy

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  #149  
Old 04-09-2008, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace View Post
My problem with your posts is that you seem to give pretty harsh judements, based on what at best can be considered rumors and hear-say: what I've read gives a different account of Caroline's behaviour; it is possible that what you've read is closer to the truth than what I know, but in case what you've heard is false, shouldn't you be a little more careful with your opinions?
For example, as far as I know, Caroline and Stefano didn't meet in the summer of 1983 but had already met and dated some months before ( I know different things also about Stefano 's previous relationship and what happened in Vatican); this is just an example of how gossip press can be misleading (whether mine or your info is true is not the point), and in my opinion saying a woman who met a man, fell in love, and not only lived with him 7 years, having three kids but still remembers him dearly (Stefano's mother words) after 18 years from his death was just guided by hormones, without knowing the person and being sure of how things really went, is a tad rushed.
Plus, had it only been lust between Stefano and Caroline, I guess when she turned out pregnant Stefano (as most 23 year old guys) would have run for the hills. JMO of course.
Grace I understand what you are saying. But unless you or I or anyone on this Forum knows the Princess personally isn't every opinion we express here in some way or another based on gossip, speculation and/or hearsay?

I freely admit that my opinions are based on what I have read and observed. Not only gossip rags but biographers of the late Grace and Rainier, serious biographers like Anne Edwards.

I didn't come here simply to debunk Princess Caroline. On the contrary I think she has displayed exceptional courage at many points in what has been a glamorous but also a difficult life. The fact that I also think she is selfish and impulsive does not change that at all.

I weighed in on my opinion about Stefano-which is not an altogether positive one. I understand that many people here think that he was Prince Charming and that is their right. I am not saying it was not the Princess's right to marry the man.

Again, I thought the purpose of this topic was to weigh on on our PERSONAL opinions of Caroline and her husbands. Since people have come on here and posted positive opinions on Stefano without having to defend their morality, sense of fairness, etc...why should those of us who disagree have to do otherwise?
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  #150  
Old 04-09-2008, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaDreamin View Post
Grace I understand what you are saying. But unless you or I or anyone on this Forum knows the Princess personally isn't every opinion we express here in some way or another based on gossip, speculation and/or hearsay?

I freely admit that my opinions are based on what I have read and observed. Not only gossip rags but biographers of the late Grace and Rainier, serious biographers like Anne Edwards.

Again, I thought the purpose of this topic was to weigh on on our PERSONAL opinions of Caroline and her husbands. Since people have come on here and posted positive opinions on Stefano without having to defend their morality, sense of fairness, etc...why should those of us who disagree have to do otherwise?
Point taken, and I agree with you on some levels; maybe it just seems to me that when the judgements are more negative and harsh, the possibility of having the facts wrong is more relevant that when you are praising a person. It's probably a matter of perception.
Anyway, I just want to make clear that I respect and accept (not that you need my permission or anything) your opinions, that are completely legitimate. My only "request" was to take many info we get with a grain of salt, when forming an opinion on public figures and to add an "apparently" or a "maybe" when reporting said "info" in posts. That's all. Hope I've made myself clearer.
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  #151  
Old 04-09-2008, 05:49 PM
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Well I won't exceed in prolixity.................. but I think that Caroline has been put on a pedestal, from the media, press etc.
I agree with whom said that she should be brought down a notch. She's a human being , she can do mistakes like everybody else. Dont forget that.
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  #152  
Old 04-10-2008, 11:46 AM
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I have had a few day to reflect on my own comments and everyone else's and I think I need to apologize. I DID come off rather harsh. I would be in trouble iif anyone judged ME for some of the things I did and said in my twenties, and it is out of place for me to judge someone like Princess Caroline...whose life and experiences have been so totally outside of what I have ever gone through.

I haven't changed my opinion of Stefano or the fact that I think Caroline's judgment has been poor in her choice of men. But looking back I don't blame her for sensing happiness with Stefano and grabbing for it and not looking back.

Perhaps there was something deep in her soul that knew her time with him in this life would be brief. Maybe she knew that and decided to take whatever happiness she could find then.

In view of what happened, I am glad she did.
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  #153  
Old 04-10-2008, 06:46 PM
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I disagree with the statements of Caroline "stealing another woman's husband". It is a 2 way street, you can't steal anyone's husband, obviously Ernst was not very happy in his marriage with Chantal or else he would not have left her for Caroline.
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  #154  
Old 05-27-2008, 03:59 PM
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Here's a pic of Caroline and Stefano in their winter holidays
in 1987, I wonder if her winter coat has been discussed back then

------> Caroline and Stefano in 1987
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  #155  
Old 07-06-2008, 06:04 AM
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One with Junot

Pic

And some with Stefano

Gallery
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  #156  
Old 07-08-2008, 07:48 AM
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Those two last pictures are from a holiday in Marrakech that Caroline organised for Stefano's 30th birthday in september 1990. Inès de la Fressange was one of the guests.
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  #157  
Old 07-09-2008, 02:55 PM
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I had never seen some of the pictures. Great finding!
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  #158  
Old 08-22-2008, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbhrc View Post
One with Junot

Pic

And some with Stefano

Gallery
great pics! anymore more of stefano?
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  #159  
Old 09-06-2008, 10:45 PM
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Very well said Grace! Probably the posters here do not know that Caroline has a whole page printed in Italy's major newspaper obituary on Stefano's death anniversary each year, since he was killed in the boat accident, even though she's now married to EA and has a daughter with him. Life goes on you know, but hadn't she loved that man dearly, she wouldn't let the world know that she still remembers him with affection. Besides she still has a close relationship with Stefano's mother, his siblings and their children.
Do you have any of these obituaries? Thank you for posting about them. I never heard this story before. It is touching and reveals a genuine love and affection that does not end with death.
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:58 AM
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Do you have any of these obituaries? Thank you for posting about them. I never heard this story before. It is touching and reveals a genuine love and affection that does not end with death.
Sorry I no longer have the newspaper.
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