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  #341  
Old 07-19-2010, 07:46 PM
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^Yeah, the Grimaldis have a lot of "open secrets!" Another classic example is Camille, whose father everyone always knew but didn't know, "officially." And then there's Jazmin.... and I'm sure lots of other examples. But they have their reasons. It's understandable, I guess. There is something final and no-turning-back about making the official statement. I wonder if Caroline doesn't want a divorce because that means losing her HRH title. Maybe she wants to try living apart from him. And it could work out for Ernst too, because he can go do whatever he wants, be with who he wants, and she gets to keep his title and raise their daughter. Just thoughts....
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  #342  
Old 07-19-2010, 08:19 PM
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There's no denying that aside from the protocol issues at royal events, it is mutually beneficial for the both of them to stay married. Caroline keeps her title, Ernst keeps his wife. The both of them can do as they want and neither of them have to deal with a potentially messy divorce (Ernst isn't playing with paltry sums, like Junot was - he was paid to divorce Caroline supposedly). And as macabre as this sounds, when he dies (which will probably be sooner than expected if he continues to live the way he does) she can marry someone else if she wants. If I remember correctly, if she doesn't marry again after Ernst dies (if she outlives him) she gets to keep the title as "HRH The Dowager Princess of Hanover". So there are benefits to staying married.
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  #343  
Old 07-20-2010, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Thtregoddess11 View Post
The Requirements according to the constitiution to gain rights to the throne in Monaco:
1. The Grimaldi name (or willingness to take it upon succuession...example: if Andy or Pierre were to succeed Albert, they would have to drop "Casiraghi" in favor of "Grimaldi") (Article 1)
2. No one can marry without the authorization of the Prince. A marriage contracted without such authorization results in a loss of all rights to the Crown for the individual who contracted the marriage as well as for his descendants. However, in case of dissolution of the marriage and in the absence of any issue from it, the heir who had contracted that marriage shall recover his right to the Crown if no succession took place in the meantime. (Article 3)
3. One must have Monegasque citizenship at the time of succession.
4. The prince can abdicate. The heir (apparent or presumptive) is called Hereditary Prince. The hereditary prince can renounce his rights in writing.
5. One must be a legitimate direct descendant of the reigning Prince.

Nothing about religion whatsoever in the Constitution.

There has never, ever in the history of the Principality of Catholic Monaco been a Protestant ruler.

The entire culture and history of the country is so closely linked with Catholicism that pigs will sprout wings and fly before that will ever happen.
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  #344  
Old 07-20-2010, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
There has never, ever in the history of the Principality of Catholic Monaco been a Protestant ruler.

The entire culture and history of the country is so closely linked with Catholicism that pigs will sprout wings and fly before that will ever happen.
Still...you never know. It may just happen. I was just stating that there is no "religous requirement" in regards to the line of succession or ruler of Monaco.
Stephanie has said it herself (I forget what interview, and I'm paraphrasing here. Perhaps you know Seb?!?!): "I respect the official religion of Catholicism in Monaco, but am a Christian." Or something to that effect. I imagine, given their histories (divorces, children out of wedlock, etc), Caro and Albert feel about the same.
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  #345  
Old 07-20-2010, 05:17 AM
assia's Avatar
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Originally Posted by Thtregoddess11 View Post
Still...you never know. It may just happen. I was just stating that there is no "religous requirement" in regards to the line of succession or ruler of Monaco.
Stephanie has said it herself (I forget what interview, and I'm paraphrasing here. Perhaps you know Seb?!?!): "I respect the official religion of Catholicism in Monaco, but am a Christian." Or something to that effect. I imagine, given their histories (divorces, children out of wedlock, etc), Caro and Albert feel about the same.
During the interview with Patrick Poivre d'Arvor, when asked if she would convert to catholicism, Charlene answered that she is a Christian and Prince Albert replied that there is no obligation to be catholic in the constitution, so ...
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  #346  
Old 07-20-2010, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Thtregoddess11 View Post
Still...you never know. It may just happen. I was just stating that there is no "religous requirement" in regards to the line of succession or ruler of Monaco.
Stephanie has said it herself (I forget what interview, and I'm paraphrasing here. Perhaps you know Seb?!?!): "I respect the official religion of Catholicism in Monaco, but am a Christian." Or something to that effect. I imagine, given their histories (divorces, children out of wedlock, etc), Caro and Albert feel about the same.
I have that article...it is in Paris Vogue...and she simply states that she respects the Catholic Faith. She does not add "but I am a Christian" and to say something like that would be nonsensical and foolish indeed.

Catholicism IS Christianity, period...tracing it's practices and beliefs back to the Apostles and Christ Himself.

Caroline is still very much an observant Catholic...I have seen both she and her children attending Mass and receiving the Eucharist...which no non observant Catholic would EVER do...the same goes for Albert.

Being a human being with weaknesses and sins does not exclude a person from membership in the Church...if it did..the Catholic Church would cease to exist.
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  #347  
Old 07-20-2010, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Thecia View Post
There's no denying that aside from the protocol issues at royal events, it is mutually beneficial for the both of them to stay married. Caroline keeps her title, Ernst keeps his wife. The both of them can do as they want and neither of them have to deal with a potentially messy divorce (Ernst isn't playing with paltry sums, like Junot was - he was paid to divorce Caroline supposedly). And as macabre as this sounds, when he dies (which will probably be sooner than expected if he continues to live the way he does) she can marry someone else if she wants. If I remember correctly, if she doesn't marry again after Ernst dies (if she outlives him) she gets to keep the title as "HRH The Dowager Princess of Hanover". So there are benefits to staying married.

Wich being quite a convenient, pratical arrangement, is still a major hipocrisy... I must say that i always considered P. Caroline as a person who lived up to her convictions, regardless of how unconventional they could be. I find it hard to cope with this vision of her as such a materialistic woman...
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  #348  
Old 07-20-2010, 04:39 PM
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Oh, I never said it wasn't hypocrisy, or that I agreed with it. I'm just saying there are reasons to stay married, even if they are purely materialistic and not particularly practical. And not a good lesson to teach their daughter. But you know, they could just be trying to take stock of things, discussing and coming up with a logical and practical way to go about their futures, collectively or separately. I don't think this is a decision either of them want to venture lightly into. And it can't necessarily be rushed either.
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  #349  
Old 07-20-2010, 04:56 PM
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I don't think PC cares whether she is Princess of Hanover or not. She said herself on Barbara Walters that she would rather be Caroline Grimaldi than a princess. She also said that she was taught by her mother that it didn't matter what her last name was. What mattered was what she did with her life. PG may have become a princess, but she taught her kids to think like Americans.
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  #350  
Old 07-20-2010, 05:13 PM
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Thecia, I cannot envisage Caroline as the Dowager anything !! :-))
I wish they'd do away with that term.

FanofMonaco, I think that's what makes the Grimaldi clan members so refreshing and unstuffy, and I think that is one of the reasons people are interested in their lives.
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  #351  
Old 07-20-2010, 05:45 PM
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I agree the we could do without the term "Dowager". It's a very old term and stirs up visions of probably quite old people. But the trouble is coming up with an appropriate term to replace it. Because I don't think "HRH The Widowed Princess of Hanover" quite works and "former" doesn't quite work either (it reminds me of Chantal's style, which perhaps isn't that great). A thesaurus is in order I think!
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  #352  
Old 07-20-2010, 07:43 PM
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I don't think PC cares whether she is Princess of Hanover or not. She said herself on Barbara Walters that she would rather be Caroline Grimaldi than a princess. She also said that she was taught by her mother that it didn't matter what her last name was. What mattered was what she did with her life. PG may have become a princess, but she taught her kids to think like Americans.
I agree with this. I'm always kind of curious about the frequency of the comment that staying married to Ernst would allow Caroline to keep her title. She seems to have spent her life running away from titles, not acquiring them. With both previous husbands, NOT being titled artistocrats was clearly part of their appeal, and she made sure no titles were bestowed on her first three kids. Whatever the state of her relationship with Ernst may be now, at the beginning of their relationship it was so clearly a love match. I doubt she cares two pins about any title except princess of Monaco, and, as she has said in interviews such as the one quoted above, even that she would rather have escaped. She couldn't wait to sign her name as Caroline Junot, at the ripe old age of 21. And she just seems like a woman of too much substance and accomplishment to really care about a purely honorary title like princess of hanover, novel as it might have seemed at the beginning.
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  #353  
Old 07-20-2010, 08:37 PM
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Don't forget people change and things that were rejected or despised during the youth can be very attractive later in life
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  #354  
Old 07-20-2010, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by lazuli View Post
Wich being quite a convenient, pratical arrangement, is still a major hipocrisy... I must say that i always considered P. Caroline as a person who lived up to her convictions, regardless of how unconventional they could be. I find it hard to cope with this vision of her as such a materialistic woman...
Sure this arrangement would have its share of hypocrisy, but I can see where Thecia was going in terms of the advantages, and not merely material ones. It would be convenient, clean, and possibly a good arrangement for Alexandra.

Plus, I know Caroline doesn't care about the title as such, but I think the HRH has given her a great clout in her role with the U.N., AMADE, etc. I think she likes that aspect of it.

I agree that Caroline is always one to live well, for herself and her kids. She is a very practical woman, though. She is intelligent and she knows what is good for the long run for everyone. Hey, she is probably just taking time to figure it all out!!!!
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  #355  
Old 07-20-2010, 11:11 PM
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I think PC married Ernst because she wanted a father for her 2 teenage sons. Also it was becoming a concern at that time that PA hadn't married and there was the possibility that Andrea may become the next ruler. Marrying royalty might have been helpful for Andrea. I don't think PE increased PC's clout in any way. Just the opposite. He has been a total embarassment and a poor role model for her children.

Question: Is Andrea pronounced like the French Andre or with the "a" pronounced?
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  #356  
Old 07-21-2010, 12:55 AM
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That depends on where you're from. In German, it's "Ann-drrey-a" (if I remember correctly), Italians would pronounce it "Ahn-drrey-a", where as most French and Spanish speakers would probably pronounce it "Ahn-drey(-a)". Some people leave off the "a", because it's not as common in French and Spanish names. That's how I've come across it anyway. Other people's experiences may be different. But I think that Barbara Walters got it a bit wrong when she pronounced it "Ahndrey"
As for Caroline's clout, I think the title has aided her professionally and socially, but the husband that came along with it, not so much. However, I don't think Ernst has damaged Caroline's reputation (which has taken a hit, it has to be said) as much as he's damaged his own. I mean, comparatively speaking, Caroline's a saint compared to Ernst.
And in terms of them getting a divorce - I agree with CT. Like I said, I think that both of them - but probably Caroline in particular - are probably taking stock of their situation and trying to work out what works best for all of them. Figuring out the nuts and bolts of everything. Caroline seems like the kind of person who would not take any decision - be it to get back together, stay married but live separately or get divorced - without taking measure of everything and giving it a healthy amount of analysis. These are not decisions that can be made overnight, particularly when there are children involved.
Who knows, maybe they've already made their decision? Maybe this it it? I just think some of us are being a little tunnel visioned saying that divorce is the only option. We can't know what they're thinking.
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  #357  
Old 07-21-2010, 01:02 AM
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Cool

Don't forget Caroline was pregnant when she married Ernst and it would have brought much criticism if she was an unwed mother probably not in Monaco, but the tabloids would have had a field day. Who knows, both she and Ernst may have been thrilled to be married to one another at the time. I think for the time being, both are content to lead separate lives.
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  #358  
Old 07-21-2010, 01:54 AM
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Ah, this is a tough one, that's for sure. And a sad one, unfortunately. :(

I actually like Ernst because he makes me laugh (seriously, who but he would have been caught on tape having an affair in Phuket, Thailand). Yet at the same time he makes me mad because he doesn't conduct himself with dignity & propriety befitting his royal status. And in the end such conduct hurts not only himself, but more importantly his family. It's easy to see why he's supposedly considered an outcast amongst royalty. A selfless person would think of his/her family first & foremost, not oneself and one's own pleasures & delights above all else. I would have hoped he had outgrown such behavior, being in his mid-50s, but, no, some men never grow up (e.g. Mick Jagger). I just hope that his bad example/behavior wasn't or will not be emulated by his children. And I hope that he was a good father to them growing up, and will continue to be for little Alexandra.

As for Princess Caroline, I feel sorry for her when it comes to marriage (you can tell she wants to be a good Catholic). I sincerely believe she wanted her first marriage to be for life, and would have stayed with playboy Phillipe Junot because that's what good Catholics do. However, her mother convinced her to leave him, and she fought & fought for years to annul her first marriage (obviously, her faith means a lot to her). So then she marries the sweet & handsome Stefano Casiraghi, thinking it would be for life, having three gorgeous children with him, then tragically he dies. And Caroline is now a widow. Left in a quandry, she tries to put her life back in order, takes her time, knows her children need a father, so for almost 10 years she stays single. Then alas she falls in love with a fellow personage from the nobility, someone that could possibly understand her, someone that she has known for a long while, whom makes her laugh, her father approves of him (as well Princess Grace did long ago), he gets along well with her children (even buying Andrea a motorcycle for his birthday), and more importantly their children get along well also (all being of a similar age). So they get married and have a baby together, like the Brady Bunch. Or leastways that's the way it started out. But once the children are grown and out on their own, Ernst's drinking and obnoxious behavior get worse, and he and his wife have drifted apart. The children are no longer there to cement them, except for little Alexandra, so what's left? Caroline wants to stay married for life, like a good Catholic, despite everything. But what does Ernst want? That's the million dollar question. From his behavior, it looks like he might want a divorce, but will Caroline grant him one? So so sad, so very sad. One wants to grow old with one's spouse (e.g. HM Queen Elizabeth & the Duke of Edinburgh; The King & Queen of Sweden, et al). Poor Caroline, I feel so sorry for her. :(
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  #359  
Old 07-21-2010, 02:39 AM
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So they get married and have a baby together, like the Brady Bunch. Or leastways that's the way it started out. But once the children are grown and out on their own, Ernst's drinking and obnoxious behavior get worse, and he and his wife have drifted apart. The children are no longer there to cement them, except for little Alexandra, so what's left?
Your whole post is..... interesting. I am not 100% at eye-level with you but I like this part. It think there is a great ring of truth here. They were so much like the Brady Bunch in the early years, with all their kids in school. Then the kids grow up and the only one still to raise is Alexandra.
After Ernst had his surgery in 2005, he told the newspapers it was a wakeup call and he was ready to clean up his act for his daughter's sake, so he could be healthy to watch her grow up. mm, it is very sad, like you say.

Any divorce between them would take a long time! They have a lot of assets to go through!!
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  #360  
Old 07-21-2010, 03:00 AM
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Your whole post is..... interesting. I am not 100% at eye-level with you but I like this part. It think there is a great ring of truth here. They were so much like the Brady Bunch in the early years, with all their kids in school. Then the kids grow up and the only one still to raise is Alexandra.
After Ernst had his surgery in 2005, he told the newspapers it was a wakeup call and he was ready to clean up his act for his daughter's sake, so he could be healthy to watch her grow up. mm, it is very sad, like you say.

Any divorce between them would take a long time! They have a lot of assets to go through!!
They have a lot of Caroline's assets to go through. If Ernst hasn't drunk them all away.
Seriously though, I think since 2006/2007-ish, there has been a noticeable growing distance between them. They became less and less "connected" to each other. It's that crazy little thing called love. I got the feeling when Caroline and Ernst first hooked up that they were head over heels, madly in love. And they could not hide that. But in the past few years, while there hadn't been physical distance between them, I started to notice a sort of emotional and mental distance between them. It was like they weren't on a similar wavelength anymore. I find this is often the case in a relationship where one partner does something (whether it be drink or drugs or whatever) to excess, there is a building up over time of negative feeling and discontent. I liken it, almost, to an abusive relationship. You cannot force people to leave situations like that. They will only leave when they are ready, when they've reached a point where they can't take it anymore.
I still believe that Caroline loves Ernst. Her decision to defend him in court speaks volumes about her character but also her feelings towards him. However, I believe she reached a point where Ernst's constant drinking, partying and general indulging, where he clearly flouted his doctor's advice and risked death, all for the sake of having a good time, and Caroline's need to take care of, nurture and protect herself and her family outweighed her love for him. She reached a point where that was more important to her. More power to her I say. I think it takes an enormous amount of strength and character to do what she's doing.
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