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  #1881  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by azure
So no particular contact and connection with her horses. Such a pitty.
Because i have no idea with this sport, do some riders usually do this? I mean, when a rider has no time to train with his/her horses (something Very weird but nevermind) do they give them to their coaches to prepare them?
It's common enough at a certain level. We have a. daughter of a 1% who has 6 horses in our barn, including one they just paid €1 million for. She's gone off for a semester in Italy and just flys home for really big competitions. Our trainer keeps them perfectly set up for her in between.
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  #1882  
Old 09-21-2012, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by azure View Post
So no particular contact and connection with her horses. Such a pitty.
Because i have no idea with this sport, do some riders usually do this? I mean, when a rider has no time to train with his/her horses (something Very weird but nevermind) do they give them to their coaches to prepare them?
It's not rare among wealthy amateur riders.
If never happens with pro and top level riders, of course!
You can be certain that people like Zara Phillips work hard with her horses most days of the week.

With Charlotte there is a certain pattern that repeats itself once and again. She disappears from the horse world for a while, partying, travelling to America, spending the summer by the beach, going to fashion events...) and then she suddenly reappears on horseback and magicaly her results are half decent (meaning she is not eliminated, at least, she always is in the lower half to the results list). Then, if she keeps riding her results start to go down, and after a while, when the horses start to be fed up, she start collecting eliminations...
It's quite telling.
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  #1883  
Old 09-21-2012, 03:55 PM
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Τhanks both of you for the clarification! :)
When you start a sport, particularly when it is like jumping, you have to dedicate lots of your time for it. It's not a game.
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  #1884  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:20 AM
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Sadly, this is sport that requires quite a lot of money. Of course it's not enough. If you want to go to the top you need talend and hard work, but if you can buy great horses and pay a team of riders to train them, you can reach medium-high amateur level quite easily.

A horse with power and talent who knows his job can take an average rider more than half the way. And probably thanks to Gucci Charlotte can allow herself to burn horse after horse at her service.

If you think about it Charlotte always gets better results with new horses instead of all ones (when normally the longer you know a horse the better are the results)

First, her top horse was Tintero, until he got fed up. Then came Carry as her number one. But Carry is obviouly getting tired. When she rides him a couple of days in a row he starts collecting bad results and eliminations.

Now, her new rising star is Costa Virgio who is an amazing horse, ready to jump everything they put in front of him and who forgives all her mistakes. Until he will get bored too .
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  #1885  
Old 09-22-2012, 09:05 AM
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Here's another gallery from Vienna:


** oe24.at: Charlotte Casiraghi in Wien: Schön beim Turnier **
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  #1886  
Old 09-22-2012, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by trepstrep View Post
Sadly, this is sport that requires quite a lot of money. Of course it's not enough. If you want to go to the top you need talend and hard work, but if you can buy great horses and pay a team of riders to train them, you can reach medium-high amateur level quite easily.

A horse with power and talent who knows his job can take an average rider more than half the way. And probably thanks to Gucci Charlotte can allow herself to burn horse after horse at her service.

If you think about it Charlotte always gets better results with new horses instead of all ones (when normally the longer you know a horse the better are the results)

First, her top horse was Tintero, until he got fed up. Then came Carry as her number one. But Carry is obviouly getting tired. When she rides him a couple of days in a row he starts collecting bad results and eliminations.

Now, her new rising star is Costa Virgio who is an amazing horse, ready to jump everything they put in front of him and who forgives all her mistakes. Until he will get bored too .
I don't want to open this conversation about how much talented - or not - Charlotte is.. Actually if she was really talented she could do better. I cannot understand why she keeps doing something that she is afraid of! You are much more experienced than me, but have you seen some pictures of her being scared while ridind her horses? That's unbelievable. One of her mistakes (i think - because i m not an expert in this sport and i don't want to talk/write extended paragraphs about something i don't actually know) is that she doens't approach her horses, she has no communication with them. The horses practice with Char's coach and have learnt to listen to him and think he is the one who rides them. So when Charlotte suddenly appears on their backs, they get lost and feel her as stranger, who doesn't know how to treat them. The sport maybe depends 50 percent on the rider and the other 50% belong to the horse. But when a rider hasn't make this fundamental step to communicate with his partner/team (the horse), the game loses its goal.
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  #1887  
Old 09-22-2012, 09:41 AM
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Many years ago, I was an advanced riding instructor, having been trained myself by British instructors from a young age. That said, it has been five years since I owned my own horses and ten since I was actively involved. Still, horses are horses and riders are riders.

Having watched Charlotte ride I am going to say that, yes, her problem is basic fear. Maybe not of the horse or the danger - but certainly she rides with a sort of forced confidence that I have seen in several well-to-do competitors who had advanced, through an ability to purchase suitable horses, beyond their personal skill level.

She rides well enough, has a good seat and her hands are soft enough (a little loose sometimes, actually) but she has a problem of being off when and when not to let the horse do the pacing ... she rides as some jumps like she is counting strides and factoring in impulsion and at others like her eyes are closed. Horses need consistency. The great riders work out, early in their relationships with new horses, who will be boss and when (and there is ALWAYS a give and take in the great partnerships). In this regard Charlotte seems inconsistent and the result is a horse who becomes confused and loses his/her own confidence.

I remember Jay Hayes once talking to me about his great horse Zucarlos, known for bucking around a jumping course. He said it was a matter of he and the horse working out when it would be okay to buck and when it would not be. You could almost see the exchange of power as they went through a course - "I'm going to set you up for this jump" followed by "fine, now I'm going to buck". It was a rather extreme and bizarre example of what I am saying but there you have it.

That said, I think she WANTS to do well. I think maybe she WANTS to do well so much she forces it.


Video of Zucarlos, just for interest ... this is not Jay riding him, I could not find one of those as a separate youtube video.



YMMV,
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  #1888  
Old 09-22-2012, 11:31 AM
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Hi, Catherine!
Probably turning this into a technical discussion is going to be too boring for most forum members, but your input is really interesting, and I really would like to discuss with you about it.

I'm afraid I don't agree with you in some of your percetpions about Charlotte, though. In my opinion she clearly has a very hard hand and she is excesively controlling of the horse's head (yes, some times the reins may be loose, but that means nothing. you can have loose reins and a hard hand, and tight reins and a light hand).

I'm not mad about her balance either. She loses it quite often in mid-air.

I agree with you, though, about her having a serious problem with fear. Not fear of the horse or the physical risk, but maybe fear of not doing well enough. Actually, I'm not sure I would use the word fear, but "lack of confidence". She doesn't seem to be confident enough on her horses, she is too controlling, while she doesn't have the skill to really control things. Her horses are far more skilled than her but she gives the impression of someone who needs to control things, who doesn't let go easily and as a consequence she is not at ease in a give and take relationship with her horse, the way you describe it.

When you watch Charlotte ride she always looks too contrived and forced. She never flows, and never lets the horse flow. She has quite an old fashioned riding style actually, that's one of the reason why I think she should quit the Roziers for a while and try to go training under a differente kind of coach, with a more modern approach to horse riding.

Anyway, her main problem, imo, is that she doesn't respect the galop of the horse, she never lets it flow, and 8 times out of 10 she takes the jumps from a wrong distance.
She is never regular in her galop, and she always realizes the approach is wrong when it is too late, and then she either has to hurry and push the horse forward, or pull back and try to make the horse take one more step (i'm afraid my english horse vocabulary isn't very wide but being a horsewoman yourself you will understand what I mean, I hope).
Luckily for her, she has the means of affording horses who literaly fly over 1,30 jumps, and who take her over the fences from every distance. But she asks too much of them, and finally they all get fed-up.

About her will to do well... I'm sure she does! But I am not sure she is willing to invest any effort in it. You just have to look at her schedule of the last couple of months to see that she's scarcely spent any time in Paris, training.

I really enjoyed Zucalros video. One of my friends has a 1'30 level mare who always bucks after she's taken a good jump. The days she doesn't do it you know for certain there is something wrong with her health!
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  #1889  
Old 09-22-2012, 11:44 AM
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Charlotte jumps at a relatively low level which allows her to get away with having others train and ride her horses in preparation for a competition. Its the lazy mans way of doing things and shows a lack of motivation to improve. Even then her results are not very good. She certainly will never progress to Olympian level. She lacks the drive to train regularly to improve what talent/skills she has. I don't think she can really be taken seriously as a competitive rider. I think she is more interested in the "show" part of showjumping.
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  #1890  
Old 09-22-2012, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by trepstrep View Post
Hi, Catherine!
Probably turning this into a technical discussion is going to be too boring for most forum members, but your input is really interesting, and I really would like to discuss with you about it.

I'm afraid I don't agree with you in some of your percetpions about Charlotte, though. In my opinion she clearly has a very hard hand and she is excesively controlling of the horse's head (yes, some times the reins may be loose, but that means nothing. you can have loose reins and a hard hand, and tight reins and a light hand).

I'm not mad about her balance either. She loses it quite often in mid-air.

I agree with you, though, about her having a serious problem with fear. Not fear of the horse or the physical risk, but maybe fear of not doing well enough. Actually, I'm not sure I would use the word fear, but "lack of confidence". She doesn't seem to be confident enough on her horses, she is too controlling, while she doesn't have the skill to really control things. Her horses are far more skilled than her but she gives the impression of someone who needs to control things, who doesn't let go easily and as a consequence she is not at ease in a give and take relationship with her horse, the way you describe it.

When you watch Charlotte ride she always looks too contrived and forced. She never flows, and never lets the horse flow. She has quite an old fashioned riding style actually, that's one of the reason why I think she should quit the Roziers for a while and try to go training under a differente kind of coach, with a more modern approach to horse riding.

Anyway, her main problem, imo, is that she doesn't respect the galop of the horse, she never lets it flow, and 8 times out of 10 she takes the jumps from a wrong distance.
She is never regular in her galop, and she always realizes the approach is wrong when it is too late, and then she either has to hurry and push the horse forward, or pull back and try to make the horse take one more step (i'm afraid my english horse vocabulary isn't very wide but being a horsewoman yourself you will understand what I mean, I hope).
Luckily for her, she has the means of affording horses who literaly fly over 1,30 jumps, and who take her over the fences from every distance. But she asks too much of them, and finally they all get fed-up.

About her will to do well... I'm sure she does! But I am not sure she is willing to invest any effort in it. You just have to look at her schedule of the last couple of months to see that she's scarcely spent any time in Paris, training.

I really enjoyed Zucalros video. One of my friends has a 1'30 level mare who always bucks after she's taken a good jump. The days she doesn't do it you know for certain there is something wrong with her health!

Hey :)


I'd only seen her ride a couple of times so I spent some time this afternoon to watch a few videos.

I still think she has a pretty good seat - stiffer than I remembered, but she seems solid in terms of balance and center of gravity. The bouncing around she does seems more to be a leg problem, related to the stiffness and lack of muscle conditioning.

I do agree with you about the hands. Yes, loose reins and hard hands can go together and it's the worst kind of problem to fix because it means the rider is generally lacking in the ... um ... ability to "connect" with the horse, often to understand the necessity of that connection. Do you know what I mean? It's what separates the riders from the horsemen/horsewomen. Charlotte is still just a rider.

The reins are the communication wire - and yes, she does tend to jerk and pull. I would, if I were her trainer, have her on a rowing machine tomorrow morning - she does this because her legs and shoulders are weak and she can't use her wrists and forearms effectively because she is not anchored with enough muscle/torque. Yanking is the only thing she can do. I mean, obviously you should be able to plant your butt hard in the saddle, anchored with your lower legs/heels and apply even pressure on a straight line from bit to elbow - but you need to be strong to do that if you are riding powerful and well conditioned horses such as she does.

Simply, my verdict is this: she does not ride enough and her body has not developed the right strengths and sensitivities. Her horse cannot know her and she cannot know it and so it will always be mediocre.

YMMV

Good talking to you :)

Edited In: Also, I wanted to comment that yes, I agree, her style is very old fashioned. Has a Prussian Army officer look to it.
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  #1891  
Old 09-23-2012, 05:53 PM
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Do other women on the same riding circuit as Charlotte weight train?
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  #1892  
Old 09-24-2012, 05:51 AM
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Do other women on the same riding circuit as Charlotte weight train?
I don't know of any rider who weight trains, male or female. You don't need arm strengh or big muscles to ride horses.
Look at how skinny Pénélope Leprevost is (and she's won the Vienna 5* GCT leg). Michel Robert, as far as I know, practices yoga, quite the oposite exercise of weight lifting.
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  #1893  
Old 09-24-2012, 09:07 AM
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Well i know nothing about horse riding but, looking at Charlotte's photos seating on her horses, i always get the feeling that she rides horses that are not fitted for her height... as if the horses she rides were to big for her. I say this because looking at the photos i always get the feeling that her legs are open too widely across the horse, as if her legs couldn't embrace the horse propperly. Of course, i can be wrong. In a competition level horses must perhaps have standard heights... Could anyone please enlighten me?
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  #1894  
Old 09-24-2012, 09:50 AM
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Do other women on the same riding circuit as Charlotte weight train?
I wouldn't advocate weight training. The rowing machine suggestion was to improve muscle conditioning in her arms and upper legs *as a replacement* for riding - which was my impression she did not do enough of (pardon the syntax).

I am a very small woman, just over 5 feet, and I rode very large horses, some of which were pretty "hot" - and while I was not bulky or muscular, the muscles I needed were developed by riding. But when I was unable to ride, through an injury or whatever, my coach had me on a rowing machine and it really helped me. YMMV.

You don't need big muscles or large size but you DO need to be in control of those muscles and be able to be very sensitive to them - this is what gives you the ability to manage your horse without all the show of strength (yanking, kicking, the old elbows behind the back pulling, etc.). *Subtle* muscle control, I suppose I am saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trepstrep View Post
I don't know of any rider who weight trains, male or female. You don't need arm strengh or big muscles to ride horses.
Look at how skinny Pénélope Leprevost is (and she's won the Vienna 5* GCT leg). Michel Robert, as far as I know, practices yoga, quite the oposite exercise of weight lifting.
Yes, Yoga would be excellent.

YMMV, but rowing is not weight training - it enhances flexibilty, muscle tone and muscle control. Pretty much what Yoga will do, except you get the cardio, too.

And you DO need arm strength - but not big muscles. More to the point, the muscles in your forearms and shoulders need to be sensitive and well conditioned. Some horses can be ridden almost entirely with the seat and legs (dressage horses are good examples of this) but jumping horses get excited and tend to move their heads around in between jumps and you need to be able to bring them back to focus with steady hands. Steady hands cannot exist when they're attached to arms that are not strong enough to be steady.

Put another way, impulsion (contained energy, for lack of a more succinct term) is a critical factor in a successful jumping horse. Impulsion is created (forgive the gross oversimplification) by driving the horse forward with one's seat and legs and holding them back with one's upper body and arms - thus we shorten/lengthen stride and create the impulsion required to jump. If you do not think this requires a body in control of all its assets, you're mistaken.

Charlotte appears sometimes unable to control her approach to a jump by controlling stride length and impulsion. Thus my first suspicion, without knowing enough to really know, is that she lacks strength and muscle control.

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Originally Posted by lazuli View Post
Well i know nothing about horse riding but, looking at Charlotte's photos seating on her horses, i always get the feeling that she rides horses that are not fitted for her height... as if the horses she rides were to big for her. I say this because looking at the photos i always get the feeling that her legs are open too widely across the horse, as if her legs couldn't embrace the horse propperly. Of course, i can be wrong. In a competition level horses must perhaps have standard heights... Could anyone please enlighten me?
No, there is no standard height, although most riders seem to prefer Hanoverian or Hanoverian crosses: warmbloods. These horses tend to be over 16 hands and under 17 (4 inches to a hand, measured at the wither) Interestingly, given our location, it was George II, Elector of Hanover who developed the breed.

Many successful jumpers have been smaller and larger.

Gail Greenough, a Canadian rider and the first woman to win the world jumping championship, rode a horse called Mr. T (a Hanoverian) who was quite tall, as I recall.


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  #1895  
Old 09-24-2012, 11:52 AM
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Thank you for your help Catherine.
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  #1896  
Old 09-24-2012, 01:40 PM
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Lazuli, maybe the main reason why Charlotte looks too big for her horses is because of her seat.

You can see that she wears her stirrups quite long (more jumpers wear them shorter) and she usually favours a sitting position while other riders usually ride standing on their stirrups or with a hunting balance, half and half.
I don't know if you understand me, because my english horse vocabulary is so short, but maybe Catherine J can help me out?

(oh, and agree with your previous post, Catherine, when I said I didn't kno anyone who did weight work I was thinking about plain weight lifting).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazuli View Post
In a competition level horses must perhaps have standard heights... Could anyone please enlighten me?
Catherine is right. Jump horses come in all shapes and sizes. Some of them have more central european blood and look more bulky, some others are "closer to the blood" (I don't know if you can say that in english. In french and spanish it means that they have more english blood).

Usually, experienced riders try to find a horses that fit their rinding style, and usually a smallish horse will have less strenght to jump big fences than a huge central european horse, but they are no rules.

One of the best horses of all times, Jappeloup, had a thorougbred mother and was only 1'58 m. , smaller than most showjumping horses.

He looked tiny under his rider Jean-Pierre Durand!

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  #1897  
Old 09-24-2012, 04:27 PM
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Again, thank you so much Trepstrep. And you're right: wath a diference between J.- P. Durand's riding style and Charlotte's...
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  #1898  
Old 09-24-2012, 05:06 PM
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Oh! Thanks for the memories. I LOVED Jappeloup! I like a little thoroughbred in sport horses, it gives them a little fire - which Jappeloup certainly had. Best jumper I ever owned was a descendant of Northern Dancer on the distaff (thoroughbred)and a Hanoverian sire. She was brilliant :)

Again, thanks - great memories.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:10 PM
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Hick stead reminded me quite a lot of Japaloup.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:39 PM
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You can see charlotte from 1min 39 Global Champions Tour of Monaco - YouTube
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