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  #1361  
Old 11-08-2011, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by FanofMonaco View Post
Scooter , that doesn't sound like much of a sport. More like ice dancing, which I hate, than figure skating. I prefer show jumping.
My analogy is always dressage=ice dancing, hunters=figure skating, Jumpers=hockey. I only do the jumpers, as it is very cleanly/non subjectively scored. Go the fastest and leave the jumps up and you win.
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  #1362  
Old 11-08-2011, 05:37 PM
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Scooter, I forgot about dressage. I agree with your analogies. I hope Charlotte doesn't lose all of her front teeth. That explains why the no 1 rider is Canadian.

On a sadder note, did you see that Eric Lamaze's horse, Hickstead, fell dead yesterday after completing his competition in Verona, Italy. He was 15 years old. They stopped the competition in his honor.
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:18 PM
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As I said in the Haya/FEI thread, it is a continuation of the Olympic gold medalist stallion curse....Jus de Pomme, Royal Kaliber and now brave little Hickstead. Did you know he was tiny? Less than 16.0 hands.
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  #1364  
Old 11-12-2011, 07:03 PM
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Charlotte competed in Montpellier this week-end. It appears she has totally lost confidence in herself. She had 2 abandons, 2 eliminations and 20/87 on Carry Duff Z at 1.30m at 1*. She needs a new coach and to start from scratch.
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  #1365  
Old 11-12-2011, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by FanofMonaco
Charlotte competed in Montpellier this week-end. It appears she has totally lost confidence in herself. She had 2 abandons, 2 eliminations and 20/87 on Carry Duff Z at 1.30m at 1*. She needs a new coach and to start from scratch.
That's awful. She can't go on like this much longer- it'll be interesting to see if she gives up riding or does the work she needs to do and goes back to basics with a new coach.

I went and looked up the horse on the GCT site just to see what information they had about him- I'm not nearly as familiar with Charlotte's riding career as you are, FanofMonaco :)

There are three videos there showcasing CarryDuffZ (All of which I'm sure you've seen) and watching them is actually just really sad- Trepstep, you might be interested in watching them if you haven't already. In all three videos, he fights Charlotte the entire time- she's hauling on his mouth, and he constantly tosses his head up letting her know that he's displeased and that he needs more rein. In the third video, he actually bucks after the first fence and tries to get her off- then he refuses twice before they're eliminated.

How long until her Gucci contract is up? Does anyone know? At this point, it's shockingly obvious that she's in over her head and it's really hurting her horses. They're all very talented, and their training is being damaged, plus Charlotte has got to be very scared- there are few things as terrifying as riding a horse that you can't handle on a course that's beyond your skill level.

Carryduff Z - GCT Horses - Global Champions Tour
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Old 11-13-2011, 01:07 PM
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I thought the Gucci contract was for 2 years but they will probably want to extend it. Carry Duff Z is one of Charlotte's newer horses. She has had him about 1 year.This is a character defining moment for Charlotte. I hope she doesn't quit; but she definitely needs a better coach. Also a coach that would be willing to fire her if she doesn't listen to him or her.
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  #1367  
Old 11-13-2011, 04:35 PM
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You know what, Charlotte is beautiful, she's wealthy, but I feel sorry for her. She'll never know if her friends really love her or are with her because they can earn something. This is the case for Thierry Rozier. He and his family are not considered as very important here (except with the "Ventes Fences" are very famous). In the horse's world, they are even seen as very in love with money - as a lot of riders are. Philippe Rozier is a good rider, but not the best. They need publicity, and Charlotte is their publicity. Who would knew Thierry Rozier if she wasn't there? So I feel sorry for her because he doesn't do what he sould do with her, her level is badder and badder. She has amazing horses, she's not a genious but she has some experience, what's the matter? She has wanted to compete to early, or he told her to do so, I don't know. All that I know is that in these circonstances, Charlotte's career is nearly over. She's afraid, horse riding is very physical and even dangerous: you can't do it if you fear. I wonder if Edwina and Jan Tops are very sincere too... Charlotte allows them to make GCT be known by more people. Jan Tops searches horses for her, Edwina rides with Charlotte, but Charlotte doesn't improve a lot.
All these people should try to be honest, and Charlotte should try to stop being so blind. It's too easy to listen to people flattering you. At a moment, if something is wrong (and it's all wrong for Charlotte and her horses!), you have to think about everything and take a decision. She read a lot of philosophy, she should know how to react...
Some of my friends had decided to go to Montpellier this week-end. I'll ask them about Charlotte, but I'm not sure that they saw her.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:35 PM
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I prefer to think that Thierry's intentions are good but that he doesn't know how and more importantly what to teach. His family is riding in the style that his father rode in when he was an Olympian. It is not to Thierry's advantage to have Charlotte look bad. It will hurt his reputation and business. Jan Tops helps Charlotte more in picking out horses. Neither he nor Edwina really have the time to coach her. They may offer her hints but you can't really call them full-time coaches. It's hard to say no and it's hard to fire someone but if she really wants to become a good rider that is what she needs to do. Focus more on herself.
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  #1369  
Old 11-14-2011, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by FanofMonaco View Post
I prefer to think that Thierry's intentions are good but that he doesn't know how and more importantly what to teach.
At his age, at this level, I hope that he knows what to do!! It's his job, if he can't do it he has to stop immediatly!!! My instructor is far younger than Thierry Rozier, and he always knows what to teach, and how to teach it. He always finds words to explain what he wants me to do, he even shows it to me: he's a teacher, that's his job. I doubt that Thierry doesn't know what to teach, and how to teach. It would be awful!!
Of course Marcel Rozier went to the Olympics. But between the wikipedia or other websites pages and an opinion from someone evolving in french horse riding background there is a big difference: I know the little stories about lots of riders. And I know that the Roziers are not very honests - as most of people in horse riding. I don't accuse them of very bad things, but I think that Charlotte may be flattered too much, because she can bring them money (the evocation of the O.G. by T. Rozier is a proof of what I say), everybody would do the same.
I also recognize that you are right: the Roziers are not the only ones who contribute to Charlotte's fails. She's the most important actor in this. I don't know what she does but she should change. Maybe training more, just one horse, at the beginning. Competing is less famous places, with highless jumps. She would gain some confidence, and maybe in a few years she could go back to the C.G.T. She wants to be the best as soon as she starts something. Horse riding is a very difficult sport based on a relationship between horse and rider: if she doesn't patiently build this relationship, she'll fail. A horse is not a machine, but a living creature. It's the way I consider horse riding. When I go to the equestrian centre, I take a lot of time preparing my horse, talking to him. Then I ride, and at the end of the lesson I brush him again. This allows us to build a relationship. I love horse riding because of this: it's magical to realise that this very big animal accepts to be riden, and it's even more magical when during the lesson, you find some kind of harmony doing what the instructor asks. Charlotte and her horses don't have harmony: they constantly fight. And know Charlotte is scared because you can't win against a horse. A horse can be violent, he can have some very dangerous reaction. Even the nicest horse can act like this if he's stressed, or if there's something wrong between him and his rider.
So I think that Charlotte should stop considering horse riding as a glamour sport. She should stop trying to be elegant while horse riding, and she should wake up at 5 o'clock, she sould feed her horse, she sould take care of them. She sould ride 6 hours a day, if she really wants to be a professional. She should walk with her boots in dung (sorry for talking about that, but it's a part of the reality!) she should even help to remove the droppings: this way, she would understand what horse riding is. It's a very precious sport, and not a moment of parade. She won't succede if she keeps on taking the horse just for the lesson, after that her groom prepared him for her. She won't succede if she keeps on giving back her horse to the groom just after the lesson. She won't succede if during GCT, for exemple, she keeps on waiting her turn on a sofa, drinking champagne. She's not serious, and she really risks to pay it one day or another. I really hope that she's going to react, because if she really loves horse riding, it would be such a pity to stop because she fears.
And if she really loves horse riding, she's not obliged to compete if she doesn't like it. She has nothing to prove, she can do what she wants: she just has to take pleasure in what she does. She currently doesn't seem to take a lot of pleasure...

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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
There are three videos there showcasing CarryDuffZ (All of which I'm sure you've seen) and watching them is actually just really sad- Trepstep, you might be interested in watching them if you haven't already. In all three videos, he fights Charlotte the entire time- she's hauling on his mouth, and he constantly tosses his head up letting her know that he's displeased and that he needs more rein. In the third video, he actually bucks after the first fence and tries to get her off- then he refuses twice before they're eliminated.
Carryduff Z - GCT Horses - Global Champions Tour
I've just watched these videos and I found them very interesting: thank you very much HRH Hermione!
To me, it appears that Charlotte lets her horse going to fast and then suddenly, violently, she uses the reins very strictly. It hurts her horse, who shakes his head to tell her that he's suffering, but she keeps on doing it, she doesn't listen to him. That's why at the beginning of the third video he tried to get her off. The video makes me think that Charlotte doesn't consider her horse. She doesn't take care of him, of the way he feels.
Then, her position: she's always on her horse's shoulders. Her bust is leaning forward, and it disturbs the horse's balance. Her orders are conflicting: she tries to control her horse's speed, but her position is an invitation for him to go faster. Look at jockeys: they are always leaning forward. This way, they influence their horses' balance, and that makes them go faster. While going straight to the jump, Charlotte should draw herself up, deplacing her weight on the back of her horse, which would lead him to go slowly, with a more fitting balance.
About the horse: oh my God, I've just realised that Carryduff is a "Z"!! It's a very prestigious stable, which gave life to numbers of champions. Charlotte has a real diamond under her saddle.
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  #1370  
Old 11-14-2011, 03:00 PM
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So I think that Charlotte should stop considering horse riding as a glamour sport. She should stop trying to be elegant while horse riding, and she should wake up at 5 o'clock, she sould feed her horse, she sould take care of them. She sould ride 6 hours a day, if she really wants to be a professional. She should walk with her boots in dung (sorry for talking about that, but it's a part of the reality!) she should even help to remove the droppings: this way, she would understand what horse riding is. It's a very precious sport, and not a moment of parade. She won't succede if she keeps on taking the horse just for the lesson, after that her groom prepared him for her. She won't succede if she keeps on giving back her horse to the groom just after the lesson. .
I agree completely- I've been saying this about her career for awhile :) Charlotte's interviews about riding being glamorous have always made me laugh because when it's done right, riding isn't glamorous at all! Being good at it involves a lot of time around your horses, caring for them and forming a trusting relationship with them. And that part is frequently the opposite of glamorous- my poor boots are sitting by my door covered in wood shavings right now from stall cleaning this morning. That's something I've always admired about Zara Phillips- when you see her with her horses, her love for them is very apparent, and she interviewed that she's learned to drive the horse van so that she can help with transport to shows. She manages her own stable, so she has to be able to do that kind of work- her working students do most of her stall cleaning for her in exchange for the privilege of riding with her and learning from her, but she still does even that kind of grunt work when her students are out of town. That's a woman who isn't afraid to get dirty and who understands horses- and it shows in how successful her career has been. She could have easily gone the route of someone who shows up to a horse tacked up and ready and hands her horse off to her groom after the lesson but she didn't- partially because she really loves her horses and partially because I think Captain Mark Phillips and The Princess Royal would never have allowed it!

Charlotte has wonderful horses. A horse at that level really loves its job- they want to jump. And they try to compensate for her- in those Carryduff Z videos you can see the rhythm in how he's fighting her. He's throwing his head up for more rein before he takes off when he needs it and then a stride or so after he lands- I think Charlotte has one fault as a rider that's really, really bad- I think she doesn't release when she lands, which punishes her horses mouth and doesn't allow him to get balanced before the next fence. He's a professional though, so he fights her for just enough rein to be able to get his balance and jump the next fence. Her eliminations all come because she's not giving her horse enough rein to get himself balanced and so he refuses to jump- he knows he won't be able to make it over or that it will hurt to do it. And that's what we mean when we say she's ruining her horses- she's teaching them that jumping hurts and making their job impossible and no fun anymore. Eventually, they get fed up and stop trying.

Her riding position is too far forward- you're right about that LovelyKate and it is giving the horse conflicting signals- she's riding him forward and very fast but pulling back on the reins the whole time. He doesn't know what she wants of him. I think that's because Charlotte's riding too much horse for her- he's fast and powerful and Charlotte doesn't have the skills to settle him in the right way- with her seat and her balance. So she resorts to hauling on his mouth constantly, and they fight each other instead of working as a team.

I really want to see her fix this, but I honestly don't see it happening. She'll have to change something drastically to improve, and I think she probably is surrounded by flatterers. Some of them probably genuinely like her as a person and don't want to hurt her feelings, and some of them enjoy the added publicity and money Charlotte brings to the GCT. But the other riders know she doesn't belong there- they can see all of her problems very clearly. Has no one told her what she's doing wrong or is she just choosing not to listen?
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Old 11-14-2011, 03:39 PM
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^ No one seems to have told her that she's wrong but lots of riders and grooms and journalists on GCT laugh at her. It's a very crual world in which you are easily laughed at, and Charlotte is a victim of herself, and of people around her.
What is alarming is that I had seen no evolution in her position in the videos. Days and months change, horses change, but Charlotte stays the same. You said that "she's ruining her horses- she's teaching them that jumping hurts and making their job impossible and no fun anymore. Eventually, they get fed up and stop trying." At the same time she is disgusting herself. But I feel less sorry for her than for her horses... What is their destiny after that Miss Casiraghi is fed up with them and decides that they are too bad for her? Who would accept to buy a horse like Tintero, for exemple? It's an amazing horse with lots of abilities, but completely spoilt by his rider. It takes a very long time to give confidence back to a horse, I think that every rider of this forum will confirm it. Poor horses!!
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Old 11-14-2011, 03:55 PM
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^ What is their destiny after that Miss Casiraghi is fed up with them and decides that they are too bad for her? Who would accept to buy a horse like Tintero, for exemple? It's an amazing horse with lots of abilities, but completely spoilt by his rider. It takes a very long time to give confidence back to a horse, I think that every rider of this forum will confirm it. Poor horses!!
I know... I feel very bad for them and wondered the same thing. Tintero was jumping beautifully at the 5* level before Charlotte bought him. I watched a video of Federico Fernandez riding him in November 2009 before he sold him to Charlotte and was stunned by how lovely he looked and how well he was jumping. (I looked for the video to post here but it seems its been removed from the GCT page for Tintero- it was there until a few days ago)

Hopefully they'll be purchased by a rider who is patient and willing to work with them- they'll certainly be sold for far less than they were worth when Charlotte bought them, probably to a rider who is slowly moving up and needs a better horse but can't afford to spend as much money as a horse like Tintero would usually cost.

I hope they eventually end up in homes where they'll be able to get back to loving what they do- it's very sad that these horses who were born and bred to jump are learning to hate it.
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  #1373  
Old 11-15-2011, 12:35 AM
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Kate and HRH, you are misunderstanding when Jan Tops and Charlotte are talking about showjumping as a glamour sport. They are not referring to the riders and horses. They are trying to position showjumping as a glamour sport like Formula 1, golf, tennis, sailing etc. They are trying to attract a certain kind of sponsor like fashion houses, watchmakers,etc. They are also trying to create an atmosphere of competitions being a social event that attracts wealthy spectators like Wimbledon or the Monaco Grand Prix. This is good for the sport and for the riders. Payouts in competitions are already increasing. This will make it easier for non wealthy riders to survive.

I am sad to hear and didn't want to believe at first that the horses may be suffering. I hope changes are made soon.
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Old 11-15-2011, 01:26 AM
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Kate and HRH, you are misunderstanding when Jan Tops and Charlotte are talking about showjumping as a glamour sport. They are not referring to the riders and horses. They are trying to position showjumping as a glamour sport like Formula 1, golf, tennis, sailing etc. They are trying to attract a certain kind of sponsor like fashion houses, watchmakers,etc. They are also trying to create an atmosphere of competitions being a social event that attracts wealthy spectators like Wimbledon or the Monaco Grand Prix. This is good for the sport and for the riders. Payouts in competitions are already increasing. This will make it easier for non wealthy riders to survive.
.
That makes complete sense- I hadn't thought of it that way before. I assumed she was talking about it as if it's a glamorous sport to participate in- not one to watch. I think you're absolutely right about that being great for the sport. I hope Charlotte gets herself a new trainer and sorts out her problems, because I think the kind of PR she brings to the sport is fantastic for all the riders.

And as for the horses... they're not being hurt in an abusive way- they certainly have a better life than many, many horses! They're just not being allowed to live up to their potential and they're not enjoying their job. When we say she ruins horses, we mean she ruins their training- not that she ruins their health. Just wanted to make that clear :) You might find this interesting about the Carryduff Z videos... watch his stride when he throws his head up. His stride is short, and then he throws his head up and forces her to give him more rein and as soon as he has it, his stride lengthens and he balances himself to take the jump correctly. He really is carrying her through the course when he doesn't refuse. It's always nice to take a minute and appreciate Charlotte's lovely horses she really does have some spectacular animals.
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:30 AM
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Here are some pics of the mentioned competition in Montpellier on November 13:




** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 ** Pic 3 ** Pic 4 ** Pic 5 **
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:41 AM
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Here are some pics of the mentioned competition in Montpellier on November 13:


Troy's poor mouth... that first picture is certainly worth a thousand words, all of them screaming "OW! My mouth!"

And Charlotte looks absolutely terrified. The other pictures aren't as bad... she's too far forward in them and her horse is jumping flat, but they're not terrible like the first picture.

And the last picture of Charlotte on the ground with her coach makes her look absolutely lovely... a little sad, but beautiful. She really is a true beauty like her grandmother.
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Old 11-15-2011, 07:31 AM
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Perhaps what all this means is that as she looks so beautiful on the ground she should stay there and find some other occupation.
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Old 11-15-2011, 08:06 AM
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^ Very funny joke!!
Thanks for the pics, Iceflower.
From what I can see, nothing changed. Reins are still hold too strictly, Charlotte is completely afraid... She should have a break. She should stop competing for a while, and go back to basis: spending time with her horses, having her confidence back, and he horse's confidence too. If she goes on this way, she won't improve (I'm sure fear paralyses her) and it's getting worse. Unfortunately I guess that Gucci partnership won't let her stop, so maybe she should compete in a more easier tour. It will be good for her and her horse to finish without any fault, and even to win. And then, after that, she will be able to try higher level.
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Old 11-15-2011, 04:00 PM
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Perhaps what all this means is that as she looks so beautiful on the ground she should stay there and find some other occupation.


It's possible! She's a lovely woman and a fantastic ambassador for Monaco... she just looks better doing it when she's not on horseback!

In all seriousness, these next few months is when we'll see what she's really made of. She can't go on like this for much longer. It's getting to a point where she can't ignore what's right in front of her face.

She needs to take a few months off. Take some trail rides and some fun hacks, get to know her horses again and learn their individual personalities and quirks. I'd love to see her quit for awhile and then come back looking happy and confident. It would take a lot of strength of character though- she's had a lot of PR around her riding career from day one (which was always a mistake- it set the bar way too high long before she was ready for it). She's not going to be able to walk away without people noticing and without some press reports about it.

But if she does it- declines to renew her Gucci contract, takes a few months to a year off the circuit and works hard behind the scenes to improve and comes back when she's ready- I'll be very impressed by Ms. Casiraghi. If not... she won't be the first heiress who mistakenly tried to turn a hobby into a career because she wasn't honest with herself about how good she really is.
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Old 11-15-2011, 05:07 PM
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Scooter, I forgot about dressage. I agree with your analogies. I hope Charlotte doesn't lose all of her front teeth. That explains why the no 1 rider is Canadian.

On a sadder note, did you see that Eric Lamaze's horse, Hickstead, fell dead yesterday after completing his competition in Verona, Italy. He was 15 years old. They stopped the competition in his honor.
I cried watching it the first time. What a brave and honest horse Hickstead was. His aorta collapsed and most horses would just drop down but Hickstead as clearly watching out for his rider in his last minutes. Sad end for an unforgettable, once in a lifetime horse.

Whenever I see her ride (or a lot of showjumpers. Dressage riders too) all I can think lately is that she needs to start jumping bareback on an easy horse. Those reins and stirrups are becoming too much of a handicap for riders, rather than a tool. And it's not only Charlotte, it's whenever I go watch competitions and see all these supposed good riders and in the end they can't ride for sh.t. Inconsistency in the hands, floppy legs, continiously urging the horse forward with spurs. Mate, if your horse is not reacting, give the wip a swing, it a whole lot more honest towards the horse. It's like nobody knows the horse anymore.

And I can warn everyone sensitive towards animal cruelty- never go watch the riders warmp up their horses before they have to go in because you will puke. Some weeks ago, I was flabbergasted once again.
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