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  #2001  
Old 12-02-2012, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
I do not understand either. I'm Greek, and if someone wears an ancient greek costune, I do not feel offended at all. If we wear a Venitian costume do we offend Venitians? If we wear an ancien Rome, or Beduin costume, it is not with purpose to offend them, NOT at ALL.
Native American designers fight cultural caricatures - CNN.com
The ancient Greeks were never an ethnic minority. Caucasians never are.
You don't go around painting your face black as a white person, that is wrong in every possible way. It promotes racism.

And you or she may not intend to insult nor offend, but it still is.
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  #2002  
Old 12-02-2012, 12:41 PM
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Native American designers fight cultural caricatures - CNN.com

I posted this is Charlotte's fashion thread but it may give some of you an idea why native North Americans object to the appropriation of their culture and traditions for the purpose of "fashion".
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  #2003  
Old 12-02-2012, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
Many of the symbols- the feathered headdresses, the tribal warpaint- tend to still be important ceremonial symbols in current day Native tribes.
I understand, I never had a clue about, thanks a lot for pointing out. It is true that you can easily ofend people, without having absolutely not the pusopse on doing so.

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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
Again, I'm not necessarily condemning Charlotte. I'm sure she was ignorant of this debate and meant no harm. It was still in poor taste though.
Sur that she was ignorant about. It us true that Indian cloth has been a very pereferred costume to wear for generations of childern and older people, who had never a clue of offending.
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  #2004  
Old 12-02-2012, 12:57 PM
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Charlotte handling trophees at Gucci Masters: WIRE IMAGE & ZIMBIO.
I think she's wearing these Gucci shoes, in black.

There are plenty of pics of Charlotte in Abu Dhabi for GCT on sportfot.com .
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  #2005  
Old 12-02-2012, 01:07 PM
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gucci paris masters

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  #2006  
Old 12-02-2012, 01:34 PM
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I've been a member of this site for a number of years now and have really enjoyed it . I just wanted to say to everyone how pleased I am that we can have a courteous and civilized discussion about difficult topics( in this case Charlotte's outfit) and we all learn something.We are able to share our knowledge of different things and in this case spread a newer understanding of the North American aboriginal culture.I'm really proud to be on a site with all of you !!!
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  #2007  
Old 12-02-2012, 01:36 PM
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^^ Thanks for the video! That's funny because for the final pictures, photographs called "Charlotte! Charlotte!" Because she wasn't in sight - and so did Edwina, but they were only interested by Charlotte. At the very end, when she was in sight with her horse, they asked her "a little sign" but she didn't dare looking at them, except a brief time. She looks very shy, which is something I respect, but as I said previously it sounds strange for a girl who chosed to be exposed in medias.
I also noticed it on pics but it was more obvious in the video: Charlotte rides completely hooked on the reins. It's not surprising that her horses refuse a lot to jump: each time they move, they receive a shock in the mouth. I'm very suprised by the way she behaves on a horse: the position of her body, the way she pulls the reins to stop her horse, she acts like a beginner. I thought that Charlotte hadn't the level to compete so high, but that she was an experienced and good amator. I'm puzzled.

I wanted to thank you NGalitzine for the link you posted. It's a very interesting article. I understand what people mean by talking about cartooning: it's clear that Charlotte's costume is just an enormous cliché. Here, in Europe, we are not used to consider it as pejorative: we have to learn. I think that this debate is a good thing.
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  #2008  
Old 12-02-2012, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Empress Merel View Post
Native American designers fight cultural caricatures - CNN.com
The ancient Greeks were never an ethnic minority. Caucasians never are.
You don't go around painting your face black as a white person, that is wrong in every possible way. It promotes racism.

And you or she may not intend to insult nor offend, but it still is.
One word... Sinterklaas...

As for offending. Wearing these costumes has a different meaning in Europe than they have in the US or Canada. It's unfair to treat all cultures the same or to expect everyone all over the planet what might be considered offensive halve way across the planet. And I doubt native American people in Canada or the US would loose a minutes sleep over this. Given that 80% of Americans (and perhaps Canadians) don't even know where Monaco is.
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  #2009  
Old 12-02-2012, 02:07 PM
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I know.. I'm not proud of that tradition but the young kids love it.

And no, dismissing it by saying that wearing such a costume over here in Europe is different is you saying it's okay. The Native Indians are not part of our culture but that doesn't make it okay to further belittle an ethnic minority.
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  #2010  
Old 12-02-2012, 02:10 PM
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well, the video is pretty tacky, lot of posh people playing dress-up: barbie and ken, cave-men and cowboy-and-indian...
Is this what the show-jumping audience likes to see? Or is this something specifically for the Gucci masters?
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  #2011  
Old 12-02-2012, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Elenath View Post
One word... Sinterklaas...

As for offending. Wearing these costumes has a different meaning in Europe than they have in the US or Canada.
They don't actually. It still belittles Native Americans and portrays them as racial stereotypes. Just because harm is not intended doesn't mean no harm is done.

Everyone here has acknowledged that Charlotte did not mean any harm by this. Most people who dress in Native attire don't. But when an ethnic minority stands up and says "We find this racially insensitive and a mockery of our culture" well... the polite and proper thing to do is to listen to what they have to say and learn from them. Hopefully, someone will explain to Charlotte why her costume was inappropriate and she'll refrain from dressing in Native attire in the future.
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  #2012  
Old 12-02-2012, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Elenath View Post
One word... Sinterklaas...

As for offending. Wearing these costumes has a different meaning in Europe than they have in the US or Canada. It's unfair to treat all cultures the same or to expect everyone all over the planet what might be considered offensive halve way across the planet. And I doubt native American people in Canada or the US would loose a minutes sleep over this. Given that 80% of Americans (and perhaps Canadians) don't even know where Monaco is.
I think that is a bit of a cop out. In a global society it does not seem too much to suggest that we become more aware of other cultures traditions and what may be considered offensive by those cultures. Western societies have learned that "black face" is offensive. Western cultures are learning that portrayals of Mohammed is offensive to Islam. Now maybe it is time to become aware of what might be offensive to native American culture. Lack of awareness does not mean that offense is not given. A little knowledge goes a long way.
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  #2013  
Old 12-02-2012, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
well, the video is pretty tacky, lot of posh people playing dress-up: barbie and ken, cave-men and cowboy-and-indian...
Is this what the show-jumping audience likes to see? Or is this something specifically for the Gucci masters?
It's because concurrents are also estimated on their costumes. As the competition is the only one of the Gucci Masters organized for an association, I imagine that the organisators thought it would be a good idea if riders wore costume. It's a funny parenthesis in a very serious competition.

Charlotte explains this in a brief interview at 22'00 in the video I posted in a previous post (#1992).
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  #2014  
Old 12-02-2012, 02:50 PM
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We are going off topic here but I'd like to explain what I feel when it comes to this subject. As fas as I'm concerned it's not the "costume" or the black face that is offensive but it's the intentions. That is why to me the old shows in the US where white people used black face is offensive and Sinterklaas with his black Pete isn't. Because the intentions in the old shows was to belittle and offend. There is no arguing there. People in Europe (like during carnaval) like to wear costumes and some of these are from other cultures (not all of the are minorities). They do not wear these to offend or belittle. This is also why the Miley made slit eyes controversy puzzled me... I used to do this as a child..

Anyone ever tried reading 6 to 8 black men by David Sedaris??
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  #2015  
Old 12-02-2012, 02:59 PM
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You should maybe try giving Sherman Alexie's "The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian" a read for some context on racism and Native culture. It's also a beautiful read.

And while I have no doubt that you're well intentioned, the idea that something can't be racist if that wasn't the intent is very, very false.

Like you, I don't want to contribute to going too off topic. You can PM me if you want to keep discussing this and I'd be happy to provide some context on this and also on the Miley incident.
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  #2016  
Old 12-02-2012, 03:19 PM
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Can't be easy though for Charlotte to have these bad results more-and-more and to (have to?) try higher jumps when she's clearly not ready for that yet... possibly her Gucci contract stipulates that she has to be an active show-jumper?

However the equestrian 'career' as this thread is called seems very much at an end...
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  #2017  
Old 12-02-2012, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by trepstrep View Post
You must be kidding. So, you can't dress-up as any thing you are not because that's cartooning? I guess, then, that Edwina was cartooning cow-boys culture? What's the difference? And Castaldi, was he cartooning italians? Or is it allright to dress as ancient europeans but it is wrong to dress as ancient americans? I really don't get the rules!

Oh, and beware don't dress as a zombie because then you'll be cartooning dead people! Oh, and I spot some man dressed as a bride! He is cartooning marriage! But the worst one is Rozier! He is dressed as a cave man! He is cartooning my ancestors! I am offended!!

Or are indians are the only ones who can be cartooned? Isn't that kind of racist? Cartooning white people is ok but cartooning indian people is wrong? Why exactly? And why is it wrong to cartoon something? Isn't that the purpose of funny deguisements?
I totally agree with you Trepstep and I come from culturally sensitive country, be like the irish and laugh at yourself!
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  #2018  
Old 12-02-2012, 03:48 PM
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I don't want to jack the discussion either by I honestly don't understand what's the problem with wearing an indian disguise.

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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
The difference is that native Americans in this country have made a concerted effort over the last several years to educate people about why white people wearing the garb of their culture for fun on Halloween makes them feel marginalized.This isn't akin to dressing as a cowboy
Why? Both indians and cowboys are part of american history. For a european both are equaly exotic, and they both remind us of the movies we used to watch when we were children. The are part of the Far West, both are equally remote and culturally foreign for us. Why should we treat them in a different way? Because cow-boys are white and indians are not? That would be racism.

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it's more akin to wearing blackface or dressing up as a Muslim.
Again, I don't understand. What's the problem with wearing a blackface or dressing up as a muslim? Plenty of people do it during the carnival. Why should anyone feel ofended?
If a black guy puts on a blonde wig and a helmet with big horns to dress-up as a viking, should the swedish and norwegians feel offended?

Quote:
it's worth your time to read some posts from natives about why their culture needs to be treated with more respect than that.
I don't see any disrespect at all in dressing up about anything you are not. That's the point of a disguisement.
We all have seen pictures of Charlotte when she was a child dressed up as an andalusian girl, with a red and white long dress, with flounces and polka dots, and carnations in her hair. I didn't feel she was disrespecting spaniards because of that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovelyKate View Post
VIDEO - Style and competition for Amade: Charlotte appears at 13'45.
It's a replay video from Equidiawatch: I don't think that it will be available a long time, watch it now!

EDIT: as an Anonymous noticed it on Pomeline's blog, there is an interview of Charlotte at 22'00.
Thanks, LovelyKate! Sadly the video is only available from France :-(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress Merel View Post
Native American designers fight cultural caricatures - CNN.com
The ancient Greeks were never an ethnic minority. Caucasians never are.
You don't go around painting your face black as a white person, that is wrong in every possible way. It promotes racism.

And you or she may not intend to insult nor offend, but it still is.
Every country/culture/people has been dominated by another people/country at some point. Greece was invaded and dominated by the Turks for centuries, until the 19th century, and I am sure no greek would feel offended if a turk dresses-up as a greek.
We spaniards dominated and ruled the Netherlands a few centuries ago. And we killed A LOT of innocent dutch people for religious reasons. Would you feel offended if next carnival I dressed up with a traditional dutch costume?

What I think is really offensive is treating certain people with special care and exagerated fear of offending them. We are all equal and we should all be treated the same.

And frankly, in Europe, we all know about the indians issues and how they were robbed of their land and all that because we all have seen it in the movies, but it is not part of our history, we don't study it. It's something sad, but foreign and remote.

Thanks to this forum, I've learned that dressing up as an indian is considered offensive in America. So be it.
But Paris is not in America. We are in another continent and here nobody consideres such a disguisement insensitive, offensive or poor taste. It's simply not an issue.

Another example: a couple of carnivals ago, I dressed up as a cow. Now that I think about it, maybe that was offensive for hindus in Bombay and Calcuta, who knows?
By the way, every carnival there are hundreds of people dressed as nuns, monks and even the Pope. And nobody raises an eyebrow.
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  #2019  
Old 12-02-2012, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by trepstrep View Post
I don't want to jack the discussion either by I honestly don't understand what's the problem with wearing an indian disguise.



Why? Both indians and cowboys are part of american history. For a european both are equaly exotic, and they both remind us of the movies we used to watch when we were children. The are part of the Far West, both are equally remote and culturally foreign for us. Why should we treat them in a different way? Because cow-boys are white and indians are not? That would be racism.



Again, I don't understand. What's the problem with wearing a blackface or dressing up as a muslim? Plenty of people do it during the carnival. Why should anyone feel ofended?
If a black guy puts on a blonde wig and a helmet with big horns to dress-up as a viking, should the swedish and norwegians feel offended?



I don't see any disrespect at all in dressing up about anything you are not. That's the point of a disguisement.
We all have seen pictures of Charlotte when she was a child dressed up as an andalusian girl, with a red and white long dress, with flounces and polka dots, and carnations in her hair. I didn't feel she was disrespecting spaniards because of that!
Firstly, I'd like to point out that racism against caucasian people is non-existent. We are not an ethnic minority nor will we ever be.
And no, the Swedish and the Norwegians shouldn't feel offended, for the simple reason that they're white and therefore already priviliged.

And just because plenty of people do it doesn't make it okay. It's because they are culturally and socially unaware and simply racist. Even if it's not intended that way.
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  #2020  
Old 12-02-2012, 04:21 PM
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Of course white people can be victims of a hate crime. Racism had nothing to do with being an ethnic minority or majority. There are plenty of cases of reversed racism and the reason people don't believe these victims is because they, like you, think only ethnic minorities can be victims.
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