Caroline & The Casiraghi's - University Life

[lilae]

Thanks for posting this. I can read French fairly well, but what does "en khagne" mean?? I have attempted to look this term up and can't find it anywhere. It's driving me nuts. Thanks to anyone who can help me out with a translation!

Khagne and hypokhagne... well, in France when you have a secondary school examination qualifying for entry to university and if you are agreed by some school you can prepare examination to entrey very high "universities/schools" 1st year khagne and if you are agreed 2nd year hypokhagne. and then "Ecole Normale Supérieure" /"agrégation its a competitive examination for teaching in lycées and universities. khagne/hypokhagne: studies: philosophy,latin,ancient greec,
literature... I have to say that even few teenagers are in khagne, less are in hypokhagne and only a few of them are in Normale Supérieure. S de Beauvoir, Sartre, L Sedar shengor, g Pompidou, were in Ecole Normale Supérieure...
Charlotte was only in khagne.
If some poster who has a better english wants to explain...

 

[Tutú]

Actually, it is the other way. 1st year is hypokhagne and 2nd year is khagne. Charlotte did both and took the ENS examination, but she failed as well as Felix.
Apparently she enroled in the sorbonne last year and is studying philosophie right now.

 

[Tutú]

Casiraghi trio has explained everything very clearly but I would like to add that in order to consider your universitary studies finished you need the 4 years degree (maîtrise). It's true that after 3 years you get a license but it does nor really mean anything. Normal univeritary studies last 4 years, and afterwards you can prepare an agrégation, start you profesional live or start a PhD.

 

[Lamyah]

Charlotte is all grown up now, I hope she settles down into academic or work life besides jet setting with the usual rich and spoiled crowd.

 

[mizzy2006]

Yeah...when is she supposed to enrol back to her uni? And I'm still curious abt her internship program with the publishing house....somehow I really hope its true..

 

[laurav]

khagne

CaliforniaDreamin,I'm French so I may help you!
"khagne" is a specific word that means second year of "classe préparatoire aux grandes écoles" (prépa), what charlotte did after high school, it's very hard!!

 

[Char_Lou]

it's what everyone does here in Peru and maybe latin america, after the high school we go to that "prepa" préparatoire it's just before we get into the university or collage cuz her we have to take an exam and that's how we get into the university

 

[Tutú]

it's what everyone does here in Peru and maybe latin america, after the high school we go to that "prepa" préparatoire it's just before we get into the university or collage cuz her we have to take an exam and that's how we get into the university

No, it's not the same.
In France you don't go to any preparatory school to just go into university. The Bac is enought and Charlotte had a "très bien". Most people just pass their bac in june/july and get into the university next october, that's all.
In Charlotte case she was tryig to get into the ENS. It's long to explain but you can find information about it in this thread.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Diplomatic studies are done through the ENA (Ecole Nationale d'Administration) which also requires a competitive exam to get in, a very hard one that emphasizes general culture and economics, finance, management, history, current events. You usually get in after passing the first year of Sciences Politiques (Sciences Po), which Caroline failed when she attempted it. It's a lot of memorization and non stop studying. But then you can end up President of France (not that Charlotte would want to...)

This whole post (#538) was fascinatingly and well said, iloveroyals. I have a question specifically about this part quoted above. I think Prince Rainier studied at Sciences Po, is this right? What exactly did Caroline fail, to enter Sciences Po or the end-of-term exams of Sciences Po? I assume you mean the school and not just the subject, i.e. political science at Sorbonne?

 

[iloveroyals]

This whole post (#538) was fascinatingly and well said, iloveroyals. I have a question specifically about this part quoted above. I think Prince Rainier studied at Sciences Po, is this right? What exactly did Caroline fail, to enter Sciences Po or the end-of-term exams of Sciences Po? I assume you mean the school and not just the subject, i.e. political science at Sorbonne?

Caroline failed the end-of term exams of Sciences Po (the school, not the subject). It was the year she was heavily into partying and dating Philippe. She later explained that she had failed because all that was required was memorizing facts, not critical thinking. I have never studied at Sciences Po so I wouldn't know. I did have a brilliant friend who studied there (and failed her end of year exams too, a lot of people fail at exams in France as you can see !) and also complained that you had to memorize an immense quantity of facts, but I don't remember if she said anything about critical thinking skills.
I also remember reading that Caroline's teachers thought she made brilliant comments in class.

Now, for "la petite histoire", meaning, a little bit of anecdoctal gossip, the magazine Point de Vue had prematurely announced that Caroline had passed her end of year exams, and students from the school wrote to the magazine to say it was false. So they had to write a correction in their next issue. I guess they have been more careful since then, but Point de Vue was always a great believer in Caroline's powers.

I think you are right about Rainier having been through Sciences Po.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Caroline failed the end-of term exams of Sciences Po (the school, not the subject). It was the year she was heavily into partying and dating Philippe. She later explained that she had failed because all that was required was memorizing facts, not critical thinking. I have never studied at Sciences Po so I wouldn't know. I did have a brilliant friend who studied there (and failed her end of year exams too, a lot of people fail at exams in France as you can see !) and also complained that you had to memorize an immense quantity of facts, but I don't remember if she said anything about critical thinking skills.
I also remember reading that Caroline's teachers thought she made brilliant comments in class.

Yes, well, like you indicated, France's academic institutions are typically very, very challenging. I think it's always been clear that Caroline is a brilliant woman, but like you said, it's very possible she was partying a bit too much especially in the Junot days.

Now, for "la petite histoire", meaning, a little bit of anecdoctal gossip, the magazine Point de Vue had prematurely announced that Caroline had passed her end of year exams, and students from the school wrote to the magazine to say it was false. So they had to write a correction in their next issue. I guess they have been more careful since then, but Point de Vue was always a great believer in Caroline's powers.

I think they probably did not imagine in their wildest dreams that Caroline wouldn't pass the exams. I myself had a great belief in Charlotte's powers to get into ENS!

I think you are right about Rainier having been through Sciences Po.

I thought I remembered reading this fact somewhere. I guess Rainier hoped at least one of his children might follow a similar course, but Albert went transatlantic instead and Stephanie..... well, Stephanie has always had her own ideas! Bless her!

 

[iloveroyals]

I just checked in my biographies of Prince Rainier and they all say the same thing : he got his B.A at the University of Montpellier and then did one year of additional studies at Sciences Po in Paris. (ENA didn't yet exist in 1944 when he returned to Monaco at the age of 21, so he couldn't have wanted to study there.) But you're right, he would have wanted one of his children to follow a similar course.

I have always admired Charlotte (and Caroline's decision, if she had any input) for wanting to study for ENS or any other grande école for that matter. It shows ambition, love of learning and culture, an ability to face competition, a healthy awareness of one's abilities. Not that my respect for Stephanie is any less, she followed the creative route, more suited to her temperament. I guess I want to say that with all their privileges, choosing the hard way is admirable.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I just checked in my biographies of Prince Rainier and they all say the same thing : he got his B.A at the University of Montpellier and then did one year of additional studies at Sciences Po in Paris. (ENA didn't yet exist in 1944 when he returned to Monaco at the age of 21, so he couldn't have wanted to study there.) But you're right, he would have wanted one of his children to follow a similar course.

I have always admired Charlotte (and Caroline's decision, if she had any input) for wanting to study for ENS or any other grande école for that matter. It shows ambition, love of learning and culture, an ability to face competition, a healthy awareness of one's abilities. Not that my respect for Stephanie is any less, she followed the creative route, more suited to her temperament. I guess I want to say that with all their privileges, choosing the hard way is admirable.

Definitely. One cannot just admire one course and then curse the other one. They all have different values. What is good for one person is boring or even bad for another person. Prince Albert was more interested in sports and Princess Stephanie wanted to try the different performing and creative arts. Nothing wrong there. Look at Caroline, Albert, and Stephanie today, at how differently they have all chosen and done, and all of them are successful in their own areas; and where they have "failed" it seems they have turned their "failures" into successes after all.

 

[Grace]

So the exam Caro failed is the one to be admitted at ENA? If so she could have stayed at Science Po any way? I think the main problem she had was with the subjects, that at the time she probably considered not abstract enough given she then changed to Philosophy (less facts and more ideal speculation) and was reportedly into esistentialism.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

So the exam Caro failed is the one to be admitted at ENA? If so she could have stayed at Science Po any way? I think the main problem she had was with the subjects, that at the time she probably considered not abstract enough given she then changed to Philosophy (less facts and more ideal speculation) and was reportedly into esistentialism.

I think iloveroyals said the exams were the end-of-term exams for the Sciences Po first year. I suppose she might have stayed and just taken the classes again, but as you say, she switched to something more suited to her interests. Sorbonne was probably a much better place for her preference of study than Sciences Po. But it's impressive that she tried for it. The real "failures" are only those who fail to try things, after all.

 

[iloveroyals]

From : "Contemporary France : Politics and Society since 1945":
"The ENA (Ecole Nationale d'Administration), was founded in 1945. In this case only, the classes préparatoires take place, not as for the others, in the fifty most important lycées in Paris and the provinces, but at the Institut d'Etudes Politiques, and many graduates from other grandes écoles proceed from there to ENA."
From :"Sixty Million Frenchmen can't be wrong" : "The students who make it to ENA are generally those who studied at the true-blue Scinces Po in Paris."
"One thing all écoles have in common is the concours (a competitive examination for a limited number of places). Only one in ten candidates gets admitted.(...) Students who attend the prépa must assimilate high doses of maths, philosophy, histroy or science -- whatever subjects their school of choice requires. The prépa includes up to 8 hours of classes per week, per subject. Most students take 3 or 4 courses simultaneously. (...)Students are trained to be quick, precise, and to get it right. They have to learn to work efficiently and reason well."
"The key word in the concept is grande. The explicit function of the grandes écoles is to create France's élite class."

There is a lot more about the grandes écoles, I don't know if by providing a link to a couple of pages I scanned would infringe copyright. It's very interesting, and explains why an intellectual and culturally-oriented family like Caroline's would want her children to attend a grande école.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I do hope Charlotte continues with some kind of academic study, whether ENS or ENA I don't care, because oh what a waste of a good mind to become a silly socialite!

 

[mizzy2006]

Yeah...absolutely...she needs more than title and pretty face since she did show some talent in her study earlier. I would definitely say she has brain... if she is so attached to his bf, then she can continue in England... but of course even Princess Madeliene couldnt stand the paps, not sure abt her.... maybe she can move to NY and stay with her bro... who knows..but thats quite far from England... which I dont think she will do that for the time beings.But yeah...continue your study, Charlotte!!!

 

[Grace]

So the course Caro took at Science Po is explicitly preparatory for ENA? Not part of Science Po normal courses? Cause otherwise, after failing ENA admission, she could have stayed at Science Po whose degree is very very prestigious, even if not at ENA level. I still think at that point she was mainly interested in other subjects...
Of course if one is really interested can also attend ENA as a second degree, but admission is alwasy very tough (the toughest in France I believe). Well, knowing the majority of French Presidents and Prime Ministers graduated there explains a lot.
I have to say a friend of mine who studied at Science Po found it quite hard and very rigid with high competition between students...so Caro might have been right regards free-thinking, especially if compared to the revolutionary, modern ideas which dominated Sorbonne in the late 60s and 70s. My friend has a British background and found a great difference between critical thinking encouragement at British top Universities and Science Po where it is more restrained (not that they suppress freethinking, but they tend to educate and direct the students more, in accordance with established and dominating theories and ideas; I'm sorry, I'm not explaining this well, I'd sum it up saying they put more stress on students acquiring knowledge than on encouraging them to personally reelaborate it thinking out of the box).

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

To me, you are making perfect sense, Grace. I understand, or think I understand, what you are trying to say. Is it possible that the exams for Sciences Po and the Grand Écoles put more emphasis on the nitty gritty (that is, the technicalities, the factual, the expert and most "accepted" theories) for the reason that their numbers are so crunched? What I mean is, perhaps they have to eliminate students who don't meet the technical standards because they only have so many number of places at these schools?
In the US, we have thousands of massive universities so that anyone (I do mean anyone) can study in them, and there are no limits. The competition is very low in the US. I think maybe the competition is so much higher in France because the # of schools is lower and each institution wants to be sure they give their places to the very best. Maybe i'm wrong. It's just a thought.

 

[Lakshmi]

I visit this thread not too often. I heard about a year ago that Andrea studies in Paris in International University, and that it was American school. he Andrea moved to N.Y. to be with Tatiana. What is he doing now?

 

[hibou]

To me, you are making perfect sense, Grace. I understand, or think I understand, what you are trying to say. Is it possible that the exams for Sciences Po and the Grand Écoles put more emphasis on the nitty gritty (that is, the technicalities, the factual, the expert and most "accepted" theories) for the reason that their numbers are so crunched? What I mean is, perhaps they have to eliminate students who don't meet the technical standards because they only have so many number of places at these schools?
In the US, we have thousands of massive universities so that anyone (I do mean anyone) can study in them, and there are no limits. The competition is very low in the US. I think maybe the competition is so much higher in France because the # of schools is lower and each institution wants to be sure they give their places to the very best. Maybe i'm wrong. It's just a thought.

Actually that not true in the US for top schools like Harvard, MIT Stanford, Princeton etc. for every 10,000 applications they will take less than 1,000 and the smaller schools like Princeton much less. So the competition is very very tight depending on the level you are applying at. Right now the ivy leagues get a lot of applications from foreign students as well which puts more pressure on the US students who apply. The back-up schools to the ivy leagues are now just as tough to get into. Science PA and the GE are for very specific majors and their standards are therefore narrower in who they accept and who they keep. The same can be said at the graduate school level in the US. In most Grad schools in the US depending on your area of expertise, if you get below the Grade of B or 3.0 in any course it is considered an F or failure and if your total grade point ave. falls below at 3.0 you are asked to leave. So again the higher the level the tighter the requirements.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Hibou, none of the US universities are as competitive as the French schools. None. Not at any level.

 

[dw2108]

CasiraghiTrio, it's best worded thus: All too many of our universities fail to be competitive. I conducted research work at one U which caused many of my students to suffer physical exhaustion, and I think that faculty probably ate their students at another U listed above!

Dave

 

[Grace]

To me, you are making perfect sense, Grace. I understand, or think I understand, what you are trying to say. Is it possible that the exams for Sciences Po and the Grand Écoles put more emphasis on the nitty gritty (that is, the technicalities, the factual, the expert and most "accepted" theories) for the reason that their numbers are so crunched? What I mean is, perhaps they have to eliminate students who don't meet the technical standards because they only have so many number of places at these schools?
In the US, we have thousands of massive universities so that anyone (I do mean anyone) can study in them, and there are no limits. The competition is very low in the US. I think maybe the competition is so much higher in France because the # of schools is lower and each institution wants to be sure they give their places to the very best. Maybe i'm wrong. It's just a thought.

I'm glad I managed to explain what I meant. Yes, part of the emphasis on learning is due to the very competitive environment students have to live in while taking courses, part is due to how hard it is to get in, but part in my opinion is a basic cultural difference between more rigid systems (in this Italy is similar to France) and Anglo-Saxon ones; in my humble opinion both have advantages and dysadvantage, and even though I really appreciate the British/American way, maybe in some countries (again like Italy) they are now putting so much stress on the fact that you "study to get a job" trying to mimic those systems, that they are forgetting the importance of the learning per se (you know enlarging horizons, opening minds yadda yadda yadda).

Probably back in the 70s, being in her rebellious phase, CAro found the agitated Sorbonne, with students protests and so on, more appealing than a school of the establishment...and she probably prefered philosophic speculation...plus she failed the test, but I think she might have stayed at Science Po anyway (which btw is a great school, despite the critical remarks we're making).

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

CasiraghiTrio, it's best worded thus: All too many of our universities fail to be competitive. I conducted research work at one U which caused many of my students to suffer physical exhaustion, and I think that faculty probably ate their students at another U listed above!

Dave

Actually, in the US, as I think on it again, Hibou has a point because the graduate schools are probably the most competitive institutions in the US. But my experience and the experiences of my acquaintances has shown me that undergraduate competition in the US is almost nill, at most schools, Ivy League or Tier 2 or whatever! It's so easy to get acceptance into a US undergrad school and if you don't get into one, you have like ten to back you up.
But even the US grad schools don't compare to the French system. I believe France has arguably the most or one of the most competitive education in the world, perhaps neck to neck with Italy.

 

[iloveroyals]

In terms of work, commitment, single-mindedness, and a healthy dose of competitiveness, I'd say the grandes écoles are the equivalent of law school and medical school.

Perhaps one difference is that the preparation focuses on broad knowledge and culture (being a cultivé(e) person is the highest compliment you can give to someone in France), and, and that's different from the U.S scale of values, it is more prestigious to be an alumnus from a grande école than a physician or lawyer (I am speaking in general terms here, obviously). A joke (and it is not really a joke, and it is sexist too) is that parents dream of their daughter marrying a Polytechnicien or an Enarque, not a doctor or lawyer. It is the degree that counts, (acquired very early in life, in your very early twenties) not the actual social position. All of this could be qualified ad infinitum, but that's the general idea.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

CasiraghiTrio, seriously I'm not really aware abt the system in France's universities. You did mention she already has a degree, but did she graduate?.. I mean maybe a ceremony. But if she continues her study this fall, what's next (which certificates)? ..

I'm not sure what she will do. I await the news as eagerly as you. I think (but again, could well be wrong) that in France there are not any ceremonies for university level degrees as in the US and Britain and some other places.
But Charlotte would certainly now have the License of Philosophy from Sorbonne IV. I think she could do one of many things. If she wants further education, possibly:
1) She could go for a Master's at Sorbonne IV
2) She could go to a Grand École (maybe Normale Supérieure or like iloveroyals has suggested, maybe Nationale d'Administration).
3) She could study abroad as her brothers and so many friends have done.
Her License degree gives her completion of undergraduate work, so she could go into a Master's program anywhere in the world, I imagine.

 

[iloveroyals]

Unfortunately, there is no ceremony in France for graduation. Unless things have changed, they give you a paltry little piece of paper (OK, I exaggerate a little) that as an original of your degree already looks like a badly fake copy. (That, I know: I've had problems convincing universities here that I did get the degrees I claimed I had earned, just because of the cheap looking document it's printed on. And from what I understand, the universities in France aren't getting any richer. But that's beside the point, except in how they could allocate a higher budget for the document itself. It's nothing you'd want to frame and display in your office.)

The most wealthy and educated among the French now (even if they lean toward left-oriented politics) tend to send their children to an American university for at least a year, usually post-graduate, not necessarily so, and usually of the MBA type. American summer camps focusing on a field of study (often performance-oriented: music, theather) or arts (including creative writing) are also popular for resume-conscious parents. It's almost the opposite of a few decades ago, although of course American parents still send their children abroad for further studies, particularly in the arts. (Remember "Father of the Bride" ?)

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

This is just a summary and rough outline of the Casiraghis' education. It includes links to the schools, if available.

Andrea began his schooling in Monaco.
Charlotte and Pierre certainly began in Saint Rémy de Provence at the école maternelle (nursery school) and the "école de la republique" (the local state or public school).

Andrea
1) Lycée Jeanne d'Arc de St Aspais, near Fontainebleau
2) International School of Paris
3) University in Montreal (maybe McGill, but no one seems to know for sure)
4) American University of Paris

Charlotte
1) Lycée François 1er de Fontainebleau
2) Lycée Fenelon in Paris
3) University of Paris-Sorbonne IV

Pierre
1) Lycée François 1er de Fontainebleau
2) University Bocconi in Milan

Education of Stefano Casiraghi (father)
1) Collegio Gallio
2) University Bocconi in Milan

Education of HRH The Princess of Hanover (mother)
1) St Mary's School in Ascot, Berkshire
2) École de Sciences Politiques (Sciences Po) in Paris
3) La Sorbonne

Education of HSH the late Prince Rainier (maternal grandfather)
1) Summerfields Preparatory School at St. Leonards-on-Sea in England
2) Stowe School in Buckingham, England
3) Le Rosey in Switzerland
4) Université de Montpellier, faculté de Montpellier
5) École de Sciences Politiques (Sciences Po) in Paris

Education of Prince Albert (maternal uncle)
1) Lycée Albert 1er de Monaco
2) Amherst College, Massachusetts

Education of Princess Stephanie (maternal aunt)
1) Dames de Saint-Maur, Monaco (convent school)
2) Ecole & Collège Dupanloup - Boulogne Billancourt outside of Paris

Friends' education
American Intercontinental University, London (Tatiana - in 2004)
The New School in Manhattan (Tatiana - more recently)
New York University (their stepbrothers, also maybe Eugenie Niarchos)
HEC Paris (Juliette Maillot)
University Paris Dauphine (Valentine Pozzo di Borgo)
University Paris II (Felix Winckler)
L'Hôtellerie Restauration - Profession : Restaurant, Hôtel et Café (Cecile Winckler)
International School of Hannover Region (Pierre's buddy Max Peter)
University of Innsbruck (Hubertus Herring-Frankensdorf)
London School of Economics and Political Science (Will Alexander, a friend of Charlotte and stepbrothers)
Malvern College (stepbrothers' English public school, or "high school")